Random thoughts on form and mass and efficiency...

[rimduglep]

Sometimes I wish that I could see a breakdown of how efficiently I'm using the lean body mass that I have. I don't have a lot of mass right now and I still struggle with form on all of my exercises, and it would be interesting to see how much someone with the same current mass distribution at the same height are able to lift with perfect form and a highly trained central nervous system. I'm sure the results would be both depressing and really inspiring... I'm sure that with good progress toward good form, even at the LBM I'm at right now, I can be lifting a lot more weight than I am right now. I'm currently trying to gain very slowly as my focus is more long-term aesthetic than anything else but I do think that if I could get some of this form stuff down, my strength would increase like crazy even at this weight.

I know, I know... Cool story, bro.

[shaneinga]

I guess it would come down to your definition of "perfect" form, and what constitutes you not pushing past that to add some more weight to the bar. I have found the more weight I use as I progress the more tweaks I make in form as I go. I also find weaknesses that need addressing before I can move on to break that plateau. You don't find that playing around in your comfort zone and when form starts to break down and weaknesses are found, they are typically found at the top of the range of weight that you can handle.

I think NG said it best when he quoted someone by saying, "comparison is the thief of joy."

As long as you are pushing yourself and are working as hard as you can in the gym, you are doing all you can do to get to your goal.

In the end, that is all that matters.

[rimduglep]

You don't find that playing around in your comfort zone and when form starts to break down and weaknesses are found, they are typically found at the top of the range of weight that you can handle.

Yep, yep.

I find that the sets that I usually feel the best about, in terms of best combination of effort exuded and skillful execution, are my second-to-last sets of a 5/3/1. The last set is obviously one where I'm pushing it a bit too much the form breaks down from rep to rep but that second to last set is better and better. I know I'm progressing because my second to last set is now well above my original final set, with more reps done better and better.

The point is, I know I'm capable of a lot more, even now. Such a humbling pursuit, but I love it.

For anyone who has been following along, big three 1RMs are currently...

Bench: 175
Squat: 170
Deadlift: 320

Squats are coming along, slowly but surely. Up from nothing a few short months ago, but holy hell has it been a grind. I'd love to be able to be at 250 by my birthday in June, without having to get fat in order to do that.

[shaneinga]

I think you are making great progress. Keep it up. Your squat numbers are miles from where they were.

[Bando]

I'm sure that with good progress toward good form, even at the LBM I'm at right now, I can be lifting a lot more weight than I am right now. I'm currently trying to gain very slowly as my focus is more long-term aesthetic than anything else

What if I told you there is no short term route to aesthetic? Stop trying to "gain slowly" there is no "gaining fastly." Lift heavy, lift consistently, do heavy compounds, be sore, embrace the pain, feed your gains, go to failure, switch it up.

Stop thinking randomly, hell stop thinking at all and start lifting weights you're uncomfortable with.

[rimduglep]

What if I told you there is no short term route to aesthetic? Stop trying to "gain slowly" there is no "gaining fastly." Lift heavy, lift consistently, do heavy compounds, be sore, embrace the pain, feed your gains, go to failure, switch it up.

Stop thinking randomly, hell stop thinking at all and start lifting weights you're uncomfortable with.

Alright, going back to my hole.

[Hooverville]

Also, on the way to your hole, read Lyles latest piece on form.

[Bando]

Alright, going back to my hole.

If in your hole you are benching and squatting 170 after 5 years of lifting (for 1RM's for crying out loud), it might be time to accept the light that comes comes with stepping out. If you're pulling 320 with your frame there must have been some discomfort building up to that.

[rimduglep]

If in your hole you are benching and squatting 170 after 5 years of lifting (for 1RM's for crying out loud), it might be time to accept the light that comes comes with stepping out. If you're pulling 320 with your frame there must have been some discomfort building up to that.

I really only started lifting on a regular basis in January of 2014.

I just started squatting in October, working up from 20 pounds. I finally accepted that if I waited until they felt perfect, I would never feel comfortable adding any weight. So I am pretty happy with my progress and I think it will continue. As far as discomfort, I am already there with my squats but I know it is necessary and a function of ****ty form not letting me get everything into my lift.

Honestly, I just started this thread to try to get involved and start a conversation. I get curious and I think that the range of differing performance amongst the same body types is interesting. I seem to have touched a nerve for some reason though, and I am sorry.

I am not concerned with any sort of short cut to anything. I know progress will continue if I keep at it. When I say gaining slowly, I know it is always going to be slowly - that is just how this works. But basically I mean that I am not interested in turning into a blob - the classic dreamer bulk. So I wanting make sure I am getting everything I can, strength wise, out of what I have as I head to 180 or whatever in the next year or so.

[Palmac]

Sometimes I wish that I could see a breakdown of how efficiently I'm using the lean body mass that I have. I don't have a lot of mass right now and I still struggle with form on all of my exercises, and it would be interesting to see how much someone with the same current mass distribution at the same height are able to lift with perfect form and a highly trained central nervous system. I'm sure the results would be both depressing and really inspiring... I'm sure that with good progress toward good form, even at the LBM I'm at right now, I can be lifting a lot more weight than I am right now. I'm currently trying to gain very slowly as my focus is more long-term aesthetic than anything else but I do think that if I could get some of this form stuff down, my strength would increase like crazy even at this weight.

I know, I know... Cool story, bro.

My 2 cents, Don't get too hung up on super strict form, If you are training alone, you can use a little "cheat" form to help self assist your heavier lifts. Each bout your form will get more strict as you progress. Then increase the weight and continue in this mode. With out a spotter you will need to cheat a little to push through to the next weight.
Of course keep a strict log so you can evaluate your lifts and weight progression. You want to be at least attempting to better you PR every session.

Chasing an Aesthetic look, will come if its in your make up. If not just lift with as much effort as you can and your best wont be far away.

After each session I'll ask myself "now did that workout warrant an adaptive response or is nature just laughing at me saying, is that all you got?"

[kimm4]

You say you're trying to gain very slowly so how much weight have you gained so far? You seem paranoid at the thought of gaining any fat. There's going to be some fat gains that come with the building process. You've got to get past that mindset because honestly it's holding you back.

[Palmac]

Sometimes I wish that I could see a breakdown of how efficiently I'm using the lean body mass that I have. I don't have a lot of mass right now and I still struggle with form on all of my exercises, and it would be interesting to see how much someone with the same current mass distribution at the same height are able to lift with perfect form and a highly trained central nervous system. I'm sure the results would be both depressing and really inspiring... I'm sure that with good progress toward good form, even at the LBM I'm at right now, I can be lifting a lot more weight than I am right now. I'm currently trying to gain very slowly as my focus is more long-term aesthetic than anything else but I do think that if I could get some of this form stuff down, my strength would increase like crazy even at this weight.

I know, I know... Cool story, bro.

In my opinion in the early stages I think the 5x5 routine is an excellent starting point to gain mass and build the foundations required for a solid physique. The phone app 5x5 Strong lifts is excellent, and easy to follow, it sets the pace and will teach you the disciplines of progression and deloading in a methodical and structured manor, that takes you out of the picture, so no BS or slacking off. Its starts off very very easy, but with every lift the weight must increase a little. It all adds up and after a few weeks you will be lifting some good weight, well above your current PB. If after a month or two you max out and fail to progress then after three session failures the app sets a "deload" weight and you build back up again. Its a really solid routine, I periodically use it. Its structured, tough and heavy. Highly recommended.

[rimduglep]

You say you're trying to gain very slowly so how much weight have you gained so far? You seem paranoid at the thought of gaining any fat. There's going to be some fat gains that come with the building process. You've got to get past that mindset because honestly it's holding you back.

I have actually done a good job getting past total paranoia there. No strict calorie counts. I have gained 9 pounds since November 22. 5 of those came very quickly - first week - with the adjustment back to a carb heavy diet for the lean bulk. I am aiming for two pounds a month and just keeping an eye on it and lifting as heavy as I can. Squat, bench, deads, OHP, rows, weighted chins, curls, french press and some addition leg machine volume. When weights start to stall, I add in some calories. So far, just starting to stall on OHP and bench for compounds.

[EjnarKolinkar]

If you stall reset and dont sweat it. Not getting quality reps with adequate volume reduces you aquisition of skill, and hypertrophic gains.

[DuracellBunny]

My 2 cents, Don't get too hung up on super strict form, If you are training alone, you can use a little "cheat" form to help self assist your heavier lifts. Each bout your form will get more strict as you progress. Then increase the weight and continue in this mode. With out a spotter you will need to cheat a little to push through to the next weight.
Of course keep a strict log so you can evaluate your lifts and weight progression. You want to be at least attempting to better you PR every session.

Just no.

If somebody decides to start "cheating" and tries to make PRs each session, their form doesn't get more strict, it gets worse. Squats get higher, you get a little and then a lot of daylight on the bench etc

[EjnarKolinkar]

Just no.

If somebody decides to start "cheating" and tries to make PRs each session, their form doesn't get more strict, it gets worse. Squats get higher, you get a little and then a lot of daylight on the bench etc

Exactly. IDK how you are supposed to get good at doing anything if you repeatedly practice doing it wrong. Its not like squatting a heavy load requires any technique.....

And its those tougher reps that are skill testers and builders. That is why the plus set is said "to be the set that puts hair on your ballz" - wendler. But you are never supposed to fail a rep. And if your wobbling around and sloppy as hell, do you really have one more in the tank?


Have to suck it up, take enough imaginary plates off the bar and grind out work set after work set. This is usually followed by progress.

Its half the reason why new lifters are shoved at a 5x5. Thousands of reps of practice of the harder to master compounds.

Lettuce not forget that OP is running a structured program as well and that if OP cant execute with good form, what happens the next time the weight goes up? It will be easier to learn then? Probably not.

[Bando]

Honestly, I just started this thread to try to get involved and start a conversation. I get curious and I think that the range of differing performance amongst the same body types is interesting. I seem to have touched a nerve for some reason though, and I am sorry.

Don't be sorry. There's a lot of experienced people here and we don't always agree. It's like the team on House MD is diagnosing you, but unlike that show there is no one perfect diagnosis.

But you get to pick from a bunch that are going to be a lot better than the one your GP gave you.

[EjnarKolinkar]

Don't be sorry.

Yep, you get lot's of ideas and things to think about OP, it's your time in the gym, you will sort it out. You are asking questions about your training program, which you happen to log here. And you are steady running a real program trying to improve. That is the whole point of the forum. Can't apologize for that.

[Juggertha]

I dig the Op and his wondering about how much recruitment is actually going on.

I'd love to be hooked up to an ekg or something that'd tell me specifically what's firing on each rep.

[rimduglep]

I dig the Op and his wondering about how much recruitment is actually going on.

I'd love to be hooked up to an ekg or something that'd tell me specifically what's firing on each rep.

Yeah, that is pretty much exactly what I was getting at.

The fact is that whatever you feel is happening is only going to resemble what is actually happening to a certain point - and that point might be really far off if you don't have good kinesthetic sense. You can say that you're doing X so that X happens, but in your efforts to make that happen you might not get enough of X into the movement. It would be interesting to see the results. All you can do is keep trying to improve. It's interesting to think about a world class athlete that just gets it but isn't necessarily built like a god. I'm guessing that whatever muscles involved in the movements in their sports are operating at a really high efficiency.

[Flounderbout]

Just no.

If somebody decides to start "cheating" and tries to make PRs each session, their form doesn't get more strict, it gets worse. Squats get higher, you get a little and then a lot of daylight on the bench etc

Exactly. IDK how you are supposed to get good at doing anything if you repeatedly practice doing it wrong. Its not like squatting a heavy load requires any technique.....

Whilst on one level I agree, I think also that especially with squats insisting on "perfect" form before moving on can be counterproductive. Sure, you can't push it so far as to have dangerous form, and there is no point in "cheating" it by doing half squats etc. But sometimes people (and IIRC OP was one) are too perfectionist about form, and refuse to up the weight on their top set until their form is "perfect". And then since form on the last rep of max 3RM or max 5RM or whatever is rarely "perfect", especially as a beginner, they end up not moving at all. That guy can spend 8 weeks plateaued striving for perfection on his form at xkg, while another guy has ploughed on and is still failing to see "perfect" form at x+20kg, but xkg is now easy enough that he does have perfect form with that weight.

It's a balance as always IMHO.

PS OP I think you have made good progress since the round of threads 6 months or so ago. Nice job.

[DuracellBunny]

Whilst on one level I agree, I think also that especially with squats insisting on "perfect" form before moving on can be counterproductive. Sure, you can't push it so far as to have dangerous form, and there is no point in "cheating" it by doing half squats etc. But sometimes people (and IIRC OP was one) are too perfectionist about form, and refuse to up the weight on their top set until their form is "perfect". And then since form on the last rep of max 3RM or max 5RM or whatever is rarely "perfect", especially as a beginner, they end up not moving at all. That guy can spend 8 weeks plateaued striving for perfection on his form at xkg, while another guy has ploughed on and is still failing to see "perfect" form at x+20kg, but xkg is now easy enough that he does have perfect form with that weight.

It's a balance as always IMHO.

PS OP I think you have made good progress since the round of threads 6 months or so ago. Nice job.

I think it comes down to experience and how aggressive the structured progression is. If an experiences person uses a little bit of "body english" to bust themselves through a plateau and gets things moving it's one thing, but that isn't what we are talking about here.

Lets take an example.

Somebody can't make the progression called for in a programme, so they relax depth by 2%, no big deal. Next session you would try and make perfect depth with the same weight, then work the weight back up etc. If the programme calls for increases every session, they have to up the weight instead of working back to depth. That 2% from the first time turns in to a cumulative 2% every session.

If used based on experience, there is a place for it, as mentioned; but if used to avoid stalling, then it tends to lead to a much bigger stall where they have to reset form as well as weight.

You would actually be a good example for using cheating properly. IIRC you like to run peaking programmes back to back. If you are running a 6 week microcycle and you start to cheat half way through the 5th week, in the knowledge that you are resetting in 1.5 weeks, fair enough. If you have to start cheating on the 2nd week of that cycle, you are headed for disaster.

[rimduglep]

But sometimes people (and IIRC OP was one) are too perfectionist about form, and refuse to up the weight on their top set until their form is "perfect". And then since form on the last rep of max 3RM or max 5RM or whatever is rarely "perfect", especially as a beginner, they end up not moving at all. That guy can spend 8 weeks plateaued striving for perfection on his form at xkg, while another guy has ploughed on and is still failing to see "perfect" form at x+20kg, but xkg is now easy enough that he does have perfect form with that weight.

It's a balance as always IMHO.

PS OP I think you have made good progress since the round of threads 6 months or so ago. Nice job.

Thanks. I've certainly been working hard.

Perfect is definitely the enemy of good enough, and I like that you echoed something I said earlier in the thread - basically, my second to last set is probably actually my most impressive set of each lift at this point on a 5/3/1 Novice set up because that second to last set is done heavier than my initial plus set was done and what's more... It is usually done well enough to not have any doubt that I've gotten not only stronger but better and more consistent and efficient.