Why does everyone dog Tri. pushdowns so much?

[BobS]

I'm still on the fence about choosing the tri. workout I will use for the winter (comp. next spring). I have been changing up exercises for the last two months and have to admit, out of:

CG bench
lying extensions (skulls)
dips
seated french press (overhead with an ez-curl bar for amusclehead)
one-arm dumbell extensions behing the head
two arm db extensions behind the head
pushdowns with straight bar
pushdowns with rope
reverse push downs (actually more like a pull down)


the pushdowns with the rope are the cat's ass for the lateral head. I can hit the long head great with the CG bench and skulls, and the one-arm overhead extensions hit the medial, but can anyone honestly say there is a better exercise for isolating the lateral head of the tricep?

I know everyone is different and respond to certain exercises better than others, but this seems like simple muscle bio-mechanics to me. I can not stress the lateral head as well with any of the other movements. I'll admit, for OVERALL tri. mass, pushdowns may not be the smartest choice, but I feel you should target all three heads specifically in your workout.

[amusclehead]

because they're not as efficient. when i workout i want to spend minimal time, and get max. results

sure, they will give tricep size gains, but

a) there's better lifts that will produce betters gains

b) they don't have any real carry-forward strength benefits. e.g., you do close-grip bench and extensions, you'll get stronger on the bench. you do pressdowns, um, you arn't gona get any stronger on the bench.

i did them for 7yrs, and i can honestly say, i'm happier than all hell i dropped them for a routine that focuses solely on close-grip pressing movements from different angles, dips, and an extension here and there

so basically, in my view, it's about chosing exercises which provide the most benefit in the least amount of time. don't know about you, but i don't want to live in the gym. 1hr/day, 3x a week is more than enough.

edit: that, and let's see, do i want to close-grip bench 300pds and then dip w/ 90pds, or do some pressdowns with 100pds, hehe

[BobS]

But Am -

Time factor not withstanding, let's talk about results. Do the close grip pressing movements develop your lateral head as well as pushdowns did/could?

I'm interested in developing all/most of my muscles to their full potential. Not just slapping some mass on my frame. I want to compete and win bb competitions one day.


P.S. you got me on the cary-forward concept.

[holyshinto63]

Originally posted by BobS
But Am -

Time factor not withstanding, let's talk about results. Do the close grip pressing movements develop your lateral head as well as pushdowns did/could?

I'm interested in developing all/most of my muscles to their full potential. Not just slapping some mass on my frame. I want to compete and win bb competitions one day.


P.S. you got me on the cary-forward concept.

all tricep exercises hit all three heads...you can't isolate them. Also, the close grip bench press is one of the best tricep exercises (out of the three: dips, CG, skullcrushers)

[midian]

Originally posted by holyshinto63
all tricep exercises hit all three heads...you can't isolate them.

Bump, when will people learn a muscle stretches and contracts as one

[biggyfats]

I love my tricep pushdowns, ropes especially, nothing i do gets the burn in there like rope pushdowns with full extension at the bottom, an exercise i like doing is getting on a medium cable station and attaching a rope to it and then doing tricep overhead extensions like that, keeping the hands at shoulder width the whole time makes it a lot harder also. try it out next time..

Big guy

[Pete]

I wouldn't make pushdowns a staple exercises in your programs. Alot of people love doing them because they are easy to do, and they can "feel the burn". Working out isnt supposed to be easy.

If you really like doing them, fine, do them everynow and then. But if you want big, strong triceps, make parallel dips, and close grip bench staples.

[jhov]

bump

[amusclehead]

Originally posted by biggyfats
I love my tricep pushdowns, ropes especially, nothing i do gets the burn in there like rope pushdowns with full extension at the bottom, an exercise i like doing is getting on a medium cable station and attaching a rope to it and then doing tricep overhead extensions like that, keeping the hands at shoulder width the whole time makes it a lot harder also. try it out next time..

Big guy

burn means **** for muscle grow/strength progression

[biggyfats]

well if i must explain myself fully, when i work triceps i usually do:

Bench dips
skull crushers
overhead cable extensions
then rope extensions, always as my finisher

Every once in awhile ill do a superset of close grip bp with skull crushers again as a finisher instead

Big guy

[Ashford]

I was doing pushdowns at the end of my workouts and not seeing much strength increase. A few weeks ago I cut them out and replaced them with close grip bench and I've started gaining poundage on bench like crazy again. To me they seem more of an "endurance" type exercise where it takes a crapload of sets and reps to get any real use out of them. Time much better spent with other tri exercises.

[PROSA]

One thing that bothers me about pushdowns is that they're too easy. The high-pulley weight stacks at the gym where I belong go up to 150 pounds. I was able to do the full 150 after just a few months of doing pushdowns - that's ridiculous, there's no way I should have been able to handle the full stack so soon, at a time when I could barely manage to bench 185. Today I've pretty much abandoned pushdowns except as an occasional finishing exercise. CG benches work my tris much better.

[amusclehead]

Originally posted by biggyfats
well if i must explain myself fully, when i work triceps i usually do:

Bench dips
skull crushers
overhead cable extensions
then rope extensions, always as my finisher

Every once in awhile ill do a superset of close grip bp with skull crushers again as a finisher instead

Big guy

parallel bar dips > bench dips for overal strenght/size development

skullcrushers- fine

extensions- waste of time, already doing skullcrushers
rope extensions- waste of time, already did skullcrushers

make close-grip pressing movements (Reverse,flat, incline, floor, chain, etc..) a staple in your tricep exercises if you are serious about their development

[amusclehead]

Originally posted by Ashford
I was doing pushdowns at the end of my workouts and not seeing much strength increase. A few weeks ago I cut them out and replaced them with close grip bench and I've started gaining poundage on bench like crazy again. .

imagine that, success if you follow my way of thinking

[Gareth]

Here's my borrowed 2cents.

1. Amusclehead is right when he says CG BB aids in improving bench strength.

2. The reason why people find pushdowns "crap" is because they dont or dont know how 2 keep proper form. I see a lot of people using bodyweight. So unless u do it with a V-bar and back against something, elbows locked, don't bother. Amusclehead, why do u say "[100lb pushdowns]"? Can't u add more weight?

3. I find french presses (ext. with a single DB) pretty darn effective. I go as heavy as I can for 8-12reps and I can tell u my triceps are worked like mad after. Again I recommend a single DB not an EZ bar.

4. As for CG BB.... Firstly Im doing a tricep workout, not a combined workout. EMF tests have already shown only 58% of tricep fibers are used when doing CG BB as compared to over 90% with isolation work. To say isolation doesn't lead to mass is incorrect I feel.

[Kayslay]

...but have EMF tests been correctly linked to muscle growth? No, all they do is show electrical activity within a muscle. It's just been assumed that higher electrical activity means more stimulation and therefore growth in a muscle.

Cable crossovers show more pec recruitment in EMF tests than the bench press - does this mean we should all drop flat BB in favour of crossovers?

Sometimes, bodybuilding is counter-intuitive. It may seem like properly isolating a muscle will stimulate the most muscle growth - however, it's been shown time and time again that heavy compound movements are the real mass builders. Drop the pushdowns. Do CG/dips/skulls.

[J.S.B.]

Originally posted by BobS
I'm still on the fence about choosing the tri. workout I will use for the winter (comp. next spring). I have been changing up exercises for the last two months and have to admit, out of:

CG bench
lying extensions (skulls)
dips
seated french press (overhead with an ez-curl bar for amusclehead)
one-arm dumbell extensions behing the head
two arm db extensions behind the head
pushdowns with straight bar
pushdowns with rope
reverse push downs (actually more like a pull down)


the pushdowns with the rope are the cat's ass for the lateral head. I can hit the long head great with the CG bench and skulls, and the one-arm overhead extensions hit the medial, but can anyone honestly say there is a better exercise for isolating the lateral head of the tricep?

I know everyone is different and respond to certain exercises better than others, but this seems like simple muscle bio-mechanics to me. I can not stress the lateral head as well with any of the other movements. I'll admit, for OVERALL tri. mass, pushdowns may not be the smartest choice, but I feel you should target all three heads specifically in your workout.

I'd make sure to have CGs, dips, skulls, in my routine, but if you like doing some pressdowns, and use good form, the world will not come crashing down ...lol...keep it simple, and experiment

[amusclehead]

Originally posted by Gareth

2. The reason why people find pushdowns "crap" is because they dont or dont know how 2 keep proper form. I see a lot of people using bodyweight. So unless u do it with a V-bar and back against something, elbows locked, don't bother. Amusclehead, why do u say "[100lb pushdowns]"? Can't u add more weight?

it was an example; i havn't done them in so long i forget how much i was doing with them

[midian]

Originally posted by Gareth
4. As for CG BB.... Firstly Im doing a tricep workout, not a combined workout. EMF tests have already shown only 58% of tricep fibers are used when doing CG BB as compared to over 90% with isolation work. To say isolation doesn't lead to mass is incorrect I feel.

motor units used means **** for hypertrophy, it's the most blindy followed test results i've ever known of

[Westies]

Any of you guys do Close grip bench (incline, flat reverse etc) with an ez curl bar? Would those be easier on my wrists?The straight barbell was hurtin my wrist, so I stopped doing CG pushes for bit.

[amusclehead]

Originally posted by Westies
Any of you guys do Close grip bench (incline, flat reverse etc) with an ez curl bar? Would those be easier on my wrists?The straight barbell was hurtin my wrist, so I stopped doing CG pushes for bit.

could be you're letting the wrists bend backwards or your grip is too close (you want it for c-g pressing to be palms over elbows, none of this 6'' apart crap u see everywhere)

[drop360]

Originally posted by midian
when will people learn a muscle stretches and contracts as one

Good point, sort of. As a concept, you are correct. When a muscle contracts, the entire muscle contracts. However, that contraction does not always correspond to moving a joint, and thus does not help lift the weight, and does not get the benefits of increased load. This is not true for all muscles, but pretty much true for all 2 or 3 joint muscles. Triceps being a 2 joint muscle, listen up if you care about isolation:

All 3 head of the triceps cross the elbow and insert on the ulna. Contraction causes elbow extension. However the long head of the triceps originates on the shoulder blade (inferior glenoid tubercle to be specific), thus crossing the shoulder as well as the elbow. Therefore, unless another muscle is countering the contraction of the triceps the shoulder will extend as well.

Here's where it gets tricky. If the two ends of a muscle, the origin and insertion, are placed too close to each other, the muscle become too slack, and when it contracts cannot contract enough to cause motion at the joint. If pushed too far, it will cramp, and still cause no motion - there's just too much slack.

With triceps exercises, it's not so much about isolating heads on the triceps, but rather how much involvement the long head has in the moving of the weight. In press downs, the arms are down by your sides (assuming proper form). This is a neutral arm position anatomically. The long head is not under any stretch from the shoulder joint, therefore, the contraction is weaker, and the long head isn't as involved.

The more flexed your shoulder is, the more long head involvement there is as well. Skull crushers, have more than downward presses, seated French press has more than skull crushers.

So, to address the original post, it is impossible to isolate the lateral head from the medial head, as they both originate on the humerus and connect to the ulna, but you can isolate them both from the long head. It should also be said that many people think their long head is their medial head because it is medial to the lateral head and forms the inside aspect of the "horseshoe" of your triceps. However, the medial head is actually deep to both muscles and cannot be easily observed. For those that care, flex your triceps and notice the horseshoe. Place your fingers inside the horeshoe, where there's no obvious muscle. Then repeated flex your triceps. The muscle you feel contracting under your fingers is the medial head of your triceps.

Sorry this was so long, and sort of off topic. Hope it helped some.