Why not KETO via High Protein and low fat/carb diet?

[TheCaptain]

I am looking for any serious information that indicates that a high protein keto diet is bad compared with a high fat, moderate protein keto diet.

It seems everywhere i look, i still see fat associated with heart disease and cholesteral. And the only people preaching that this doesnt occur when eating high fat and low carb are the KETO advocates. I did internet searches and didnt find any doctors other than atkins who have said that a high fat keto diet doesnt affect cholesteral or lead to heart disease.

Likewise, i notice when you refer to KETO to people like Arnold or some other pro bodybuilders, that they seem to refer to high protein, low fat KETO diets.

It seems as though Duchaine and McDonald are the only legitimate resources supporting the 65/30/5 ratio.

Most importantly i am looking for info on why a high protein keto diet is bad compared with the high fat, moderate protein keto diet. (ie. CKD).

[2_wheeled_slave]

Sometimes I hate replying because I'm so inexperienced in this area, so I have to go off of what I think I know. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I believe that I've heard that if there aren't many carbs or fat present in the diet, the body will learn to break down protein for energy. Not good for anyone wanting to maintain or gain muscle.

Also, it would be a little ridiculous to think you could get anywhere close to the amount of calories you need from protein alone, so that leaves you with a choice to choose b/w carbs or fat. From what I've read, it's bad to mix the two. So choose one. Fat or carbs?

From what I've read, you won't burn fat from you body as well unless you "teach" your body that fat is the primary energy source (ketosis). Otherwise it will burn carbs first, and then it will go after the fat. After that (from what I've read) it will go after fat, but it will also go after a bit of protein (muscle). So I guess what I"m tryign to say is that keto is supposed to be good about burning fat while not burning muscle away while other diets take both fat and muscle away.

There are people here WAY more qualified than me to answer this question, so I'd appreciate it if they either backed me up, or corrected me.

[grapemaster]

ever heard of "nothing but rabbits"... u die w/o carbs or fat.

anyway your body can only assimilate so much protein... and you can only do keto for so long before you plateau out and can't burn that much fat...when you plateau out bring your carb up a bit and protein up a bit and maintain ..even low carb isn't gonna make u fat, its when u push the limit + excess calorie

whats your current bf? just wondering... b/c this question usually pops up when people plateau on the fat loss.

anyway thats what im doing now but the carbs are coming from fruit and sweeter veggies i.e. no insulin spikes and goes mostly through the liver first + fiber... i tend to stay away from grain and milk though.

[shudubear]

uhm..

google 'rabbit starvation' ?

[Rugger7]

To speak from experience, I did a high protein, low fat, no carb diet. In fact, it was almost all protein. I was a very uninformed, overweight high-school wreslter and one of my buddies had lost lots of weight doing atkins. Well, without reading the book or doing other research I decided why eat the fat? I lose weight quicker, right? Well I did lose weight extremely fast, the problems associated with it were that I got incredibly weak! I'm talking about in a matter of months I went from being able to bench press 225 x 12 to 225x2. I had no energy, my arms lost considerably more muscle than my legs, my mood was crap all the time, and I'd say my record that season would have been better if I wouldn't have done it the way I did. With more fat, you can not only lose fat faster than with a low-fat clean carb diet, but you can actually gain muscle at the same time. The next time I dieted after high school I was about 270 and I tried doing it the keto way and in a matter of months I was down to 240 and much stronger than when I had started, as well as more muscular, which means I lost more fat than the 30lbs missing on the scale.

With that said, I eat a lot less fat then some of the people here propose, but I also eat less calories because my focus is on fat loss. I don't think you have to strictly follow the 65/35/5 plan, I'd say my consumption is closer to 49/49/2 and its working well for me. Try something, fool around with it, see what happens, make adjustments depending on what's going on with your body.

[jaim91]

That's so weird that you guys are bringing this up...just this morning I was thinking about it. Wow! Great minds think alike.

Anyway, having said this, I have decided to embark on something...
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...1#post24664851

[TheCaptain]

ever heard of "nothing but rabbits"... u die w/o carbs or fat.

Im not saying zero fat or carbs. But, rather low fat and low carbs with high protein.

So i am wondering this. I have done KETO diets to achieve major fatloss on three occasions. Of these three diets, i achieved the most significiant body fat loss and muscle gain (reducing my bodyfat from 36% to 8% over 4 1/2 months) by following the diet plan from Arnold Schwarzenegger's Encyclopedia on Modern Bodybuilding.

The other two KETO diets were atkins-based even though i did continue my powerlifting workouts. And currently im doing a CKD KETO diet with a weekly cheat meal instead of a cheat day.

Here is an excerpt from Arnold Schwarzenegger's Encyclopedia on Modern Bodybuilding. This is under the How to Lose Fat section and is based on how he dieted for his Mr Olympian contests. While not entirely a KETO diet, it is a low carb diet that does evolve around Ketosis.

To lose fat, you have to cut back on calories, increase exercise, or both.

However, i can tell you the maximum amount you can diet if you are trying to lose absolutely as much fat as possible without sacrificing muscle tissue. This is the formula.

1. Continue to eat a sufficient amount of protein (at least 1 gram of protein for each pound of body weight) on days in which you are training - the demand is somewhat less on your rest days.

2. Eat low fat - about 20% of your total daily caloric intake. (But research shows supplementing your diet with 6 grams - 6 one-gram capsules - of fish oil each day lowers body fat and increases muscle mass with no change in diet.)

3. Reduce your carbohydrates as far as possible without going into a state of ketosis (see page 728).

If you continue to eat enough protein and you are not in a ketonic state (and therefore are not using an excessive amount of amino acids for energy), and your fat intake is reasonably low, you are then dieting as hard as you can without suffering from nutritional or caloric deprivation.

In other sections in the book he further goes on by saying to reduce your carb intake until you see a change on your ketostix. At that point, increase your carb intake slightly until you exit a ketonic state. Then test yourself daily to ensure your carb needs havent changed (ie. workout out too hard and therefore need more carbs to keep out of ketosis). If it does change then increase carbs slightly. Once in awhile, reduce your carb intake to re-establish your appropriate carb levels based on your current workout and diet.

[grapemaster]

yeh u dont *have* to do 65 for it to work... it more so gets the body used to the fat... you could stand to get 40% of your diet in from protein for sure or what you need to cover your 1g protein/ pound equation whatever you follow and put the rest fat. Personally I can deal with no carbs at all except leafy vegetables I have no need for trace carbs or sweets that add up so my carbs in a day on keto generally around the 5g mark.

[jaim91]

2. Eat low fat - about 20% of your total daily caloric intake. (But research shows supplementing your diet with 6 grams - 6 one-gram capsules - of fish oil each day lowers body fat and increases muscle mass with no change in diet.)

3. Reduce your carbohydrates as far as possible without going into a state of ketosis (see page 728).

Going back to my other post about Iris Kyle; when Arnold was congratulating her on her win Friday, he asked how hard she dieted. When she said she ate no carbs, no fat and high protein his eyes got a little wider, took a little gasp and said, "No carbs?!". She said, "No carbs." He said, "You're crazy".

Weird.

[TheCaptain]

Going back to my other post about Iris Kyle; when Arnold was congratulating her on her win Friday, he asked how hard she dieted. When she said she ate no carbs, no fat and high protein his eyes got a little wider, took a little gasp and said, "No carbs?!". She said, "No carbs." He said, "You're crazy".

Weird.

There is some basis to this.

Juice does work better with carbs. Without carbs it is said that it requries much more dosage. Of course juice alone is dangerous, now imagine taking it in higher dosages.

Arnold is part of the golden age of bodybuilding, where people achieved most of their results by natural eating and training. Obviously these bodybuilders did eventually reach a point where juicing became standard, but this wasnt apparently while arnold competed.

In fact if you look at his mr olympia photos and compare that with when he played Conan the Barbarian, well you see a huge difference.

The pro bodybuilders of today are much bigger then those of the 70's. Obviously the juice has changed the sport.

Anyways, Arnold and Franco and many of the old timers still believe strongly that "Protein is burned in the furnace of carbs".

If you look at Body For Life, you sorta see the same theory. Except that the workouts are much more intense so that 40% carbs probably gets used up much more and achieves similiar results as Arnolds straight forward diet did.

[devire1]

Unless you're caloric intake is far below your maintanence I don't think a high protein low fat diet would even put you in ketosis. Most of the protein would just be converted into glucose and liver glycogen. Also, I think what arnold suggests about your body using muscle protein for fuel when you are in ketosis is wrong. In fact I think your body would be more likely to burn protein for fuel when you aren't in ketosis. I say this because when you are in ketosis your body is burning ketones (duh) in place of glucose. Ketones come from fat not protein. The only protein that would be burned would be to supply your brain with the 30g of glucose it needs per day. When you aren't in ketosis however, but are still consuming little to no carbs, and lots of protein, your body is obviously takeing proteining and turning it into glucose. And if you are eating less calories than you burn (aka cutting), then some of that protein will be muscle protein.

[jaim91]

Unless you're caloric intake is far below your maintanence I don't think a high protein low fat diet would even put you in ketosis. Most of the protein would just be converted into glucose and liver glycogen. Also, I think what arnold suggests about your body using muscle protein for fuel when you are in ketosis is wrong. In fact I think your body would be more likely to burn protein for fuel when you aren't in ketosis. I say this because when you are in ketosis your body is burning ketones (duh) in place of glucose. Ketones come from fat not protein. The only protein that would be burned would be to supply your brain with the 30g of glucose it needs per day. When you aren't in ketosis however, but are still consuming little to no carbs, and lots of protein, your body is obviously takeing proteining and turning it into glucose. And if you are eating less calories than you burn (aka cutting), then some of that protein will be muscle protein.

This makes sense, but are you trying to prove someone wrong? Did someone say something to the contrary?

[JK2006]

Has anyone else here had good experiences with 47-47-6 or something similar like Rugger?

I just feel that its easier to do this than a 65-30-5. But it would be interesting to knwo personal experiences of something like this.

[jaim91]

Has anyone else here had good experiences with 47-47-6 or something similar like Rugger?

I just feel that its easier to do this than a 65-30-5. But it would be interesting to knwo personal experiences of something like this.

When I was on keto, I did 40 protein -55 fat - 5 carbs

[JK2006]

When I was on keto, I did 40 protein -55 fat - 5 carbs

And how were the results like?

[Flex500]

I am looking for any serious information that indicates that a high protein keto diet is bad compared with a high fat, moderate protein keto diet.

It seems everywhere i look, i still see fat associated with heart disease and cholesteral. And the only people preaching that this doesnt occur when eating high fat and low carb are the KETO advocates. I did internet searches and didnt find any doctors other than atkins who have said that a high fat keto diet doesnt affect cholesteral or lead to heart disease.

Likewise, i notice when you refer to KETO to people like Arnold or some other pro bodybuilders, that they seem to refer to high protein, low fat KETO diets.

It seems as though Duchaine and McDonald are the only legitimate resources supporting the 65/30/5 ratio.

Most importantly i am looking for info on why a high protein keto diet is bad compared with the high fat, moderate protein keto diet. (ie. CKD).

from personal experience overall it is hard to keep muscle on in the long run. After you get into the groove of high fat diets man you feel great just like your eating carbs. I always felt like poop on a stick with high protein low carbs low fat.

Also, there is a simple solution to your cholesterol/health issue. A very very very very very simple solution that can 100% eliminate guess work. GET BLOODWORK DONE! it is pretty simple and cheap if you just get your lipid profile done. My bloodwork has never been better than it is now on keto. I couldn't be happier.

My cholesterol has dropped an ignorant amount while on a keto diet.

[jaim91]

And how were the results like?

(Purposely) gained 20 lbs and 3% bf

[JK2006]

from personal experience overall it is hard to keep muscle on in the long run. After you get into the groove of high fat diets man you feel great just like your eating carbs. I always felt like poop on a stick with high protein low carbs low fat.

Also, there is a simple solution to your cholesterol/health issue. A very very very very very simple solution that can 100% eliminate guess work. GET BLOODWORK DONE! it is pretty simple and cheap if you just get your lipid profile done. My bloodwork has never been better than it is now on keto. I couldn't be happier.

My cholesterol has dropped an ignorant amount while on a keto diet.

How much does it cost and is it covered by insurance? I have never gotten any blood test done since I was a child and had jaundice.

[xtrell]

When I was on keto, I did 40 protein -55 fat - 5 carbs

Well I guess you can stop hanging out in here then, jaim.

=P

[jaim91]

Well I guess you can stop hanging out in here then, jaim.

=P

lol. Don't hate the playa

I was just (as many people are) terrified of gaining too much fat while bulking. So I figured, if I kept my protein high, but fat HIGHER, then the protein would only be used to feed the muscles and the fat would be used as energy.

And I WAS in ketosis MOST of the time

[chazi]

Fat is good for you, and absolutely neccessary to be healthy.

The question is can you keep it in moderation, nothing is good for you if you eat 4k calories of it a day.

[ironman1964bc]

What do you mean you can't find any doctors other than Atkins who are for high fat/low carb diets? My God man, there are 100's of them with many of them having written books going back to 1957. Haven't heard of Dr Mercola, Dr Eades, Prof Peskin, Dr Al Sears, Lutz, etc, etc.

The pre-Arnold lifters were basically "steak and eggs" lifters. Gironda even used to scream at people in his gym for eating carbs, although he did believe in a small carb up every few days (maybe 1 meal).

[Flex500]

How much does it cost and is it covered by insurance? I have never gotten any blood test done since I was a child and had jaundice.

yes insurance will cover it and it depends on your plan. If you get EVERYTHING tested it can be expensive like thyroid, test, liver, kidney values. rbc, hematocrit, I mean it can get costly. But again, it depends on your insurance. My insurance pays 100% for preventative care so I don't pay anything.

I would just tell your doc you'd like to check your lipid profile, that will get your total cholesterol, hdl, ldl, and tryglicerides. he'll probably want to also do kidney and liver values like ast alt creatine, etc. also. which isn't very expensive

[TheCaptain]

Also, there is a simple solution to your cholesterol/health issue. A very very very very very simple solution that can 100% eliminate guess work. GET BLOODWORK DONE! it is pretty simple and cheap if you just get your lipid profile done.

Nahh, i had blood work done before i started KETO. All was on the very healthy side.

But, i keep hearing doctors say KETO is bad for cholesteral and heart disease. While i keep hearing KETO followers talk about all this research that cholesteral doesnt occur on high fat low carb diets.

So i am just looking for the facts to read myself.

One thing i am concerned with is that for my entire life i have tested very healthy for cholesteral, triglycerides etc. and i dont want a KETO diet to screw that perfect record

As the saying goes "dont fix what isnt broke". So just wondering long term where keto stands.

[TheCaptain]

How much does it cost and is it covered by insurance? I have never gotten any blood test done since I was a child and had jaundice.

Its recommended that you have your cholesteral, triglycerides etc, checked every 5 years.

Most insurance companies will cover 1 preventative screening test every five years. Otherwise you will have be to diagnosed with an existing medical condition (such as high cholesteral) in order to get screened more frequently.

[TheCaptain]

Another thing i should add is that except for the three times i did a short-term KETO program to shed bodyfat quick, i normally dont eat KETO-related foods.


Here is some irony about this.

Today for breakfast i had 7 sausage links and two eggs, fried in butter.

Normally i would have eaten a bowl of oatmeal with some fresh blue berries and a side of toast with cinamin and Cant Believe Its Not Butter spray. (sometimes i would switch oatmeal with farina).

Or

I would have Kashi Harvest Wheat with soy milk or almost milk and a banana.
_______________________________

For lunch i had today a large steak.

Normally i would have had a grilled skinless chicken breast on whole wheat bread with mustard and lettuce. And a baked sweet potatoe with Cant Believe Its Not Butter spray or Molly McButter.

or

A Meal Replacement Shake with skim milk.
_________________________________

With that said, i sort of question the long term health of a KETO diet.

My diet is normally high in fiber and low in sodium. I normally dont use salt or butter or cream. I normally dont eat red meat and mostly eat fish and fruit. I use stuff like molly Mcbutter

So to go from a diet that most doctors condone as being "heart healthy" and switching to a KETO diet that encourages eating high volumes of animal protein, butter, cream etc. Well obviously i will raise doubts about eating KETO long term.

But, for the short term, cutting or major weightloss, KETO is the best!

[jaim91]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Eileen and chimp have been on keto for years.