New gym built and B&R bar issue

[Mech6]

Can that bushing take repeated impact over time?

Depends on material. Which we still don't know.

[zergrusher2010]

Depends on material. Which we still don't know.

According to this post form b o a rd .crossfit.com/showthread.php?t=51754

"The B&R bar is an excellent bar and constructed out of top-quality materials, including the sleeves and bushings. Bronze is typically used as a bushing material because it absorbs and holds onto oil better than most other metals. However, it is also very soft and can deform under impact loads. York has evidently come up with a non-bronze material that is harder (good thing to prevent bushing problems when heavy bars are dropped) but still holds oil well (as evidenced by the nice spin of the bar)."

[GarageIron]

What is so terrible about this design? Why is it not acceptable? I am admittedly no expert on barbell design. I have no idea what purpose that inner snap ring serves nor do I really need to know. (kinda curious I guess)

But I do know the bar is capable of loading plates, holding weight, it weighs 20 Kg, it's straight, it doesn't bend, seems incredible strong as I get zero whip on squats when quite loaded. And for whatever purpose it has sleeves that spin longer than would satisfy the most obnoxious crossfitter.

The design is terrible because of (at least) the sleeve movement. I've had more bars than I remember, but have never seen one with play like that. A $300 bar should have a properly fit bushing. The bushing on the bar in this thread is clearly not a proper fit. Maybe it works fine, but still unacceptable in my opinion. I wouldn't accept that on a $100 bar.

On the snap ring itself, I don't think it is a big problem on this bar because I don't believe it has anything to do with holding the sleeve on. Rogue has a video on YouTube somewhere that explains they moved away from using only snap rings to secure the sleeves because of failures and sleeves falling off. Again, I'm pretty sure the snap ring on the B&R is just a retainer for a bushing and not involved in securing the sleeve. I would expect there is another snap ring on the other side of the bushing as well.

I've been a defender of the B&R for years. One of the best bars I've owned and the custom 32004 Yorks I had made up were based on how much I liked the B&R. It does all of the things you mentioned very well, but I'm disappointed in what they did when they redesigned the sleeve. I guess there must have been a reason for the change, but they did a poor job executing it.

[keyboardworkout]

Here is a good video showing the old style Rogue bar with dual snap rings coming apart.



This video shows the new style which uses washers to share the load instead of just the snap ring. Starting about 2:00.

[Stasher1]

The design is terrible because of (at least) the of the sleeve movement. I've had more bars than I remember, but have never seen one with play like that. A $300 bar should have a properly fit bushing, the bushing on the bar in this thread is clearly not a proper fit. Maybe it works fine, but still unacceptable in my opinion. I wouldn't accept that on a $100 bar.

Exactly. If the CAP OB-86B had that much slop in its sleeve/shaft fit, everyone would call it a POS. York does it and we're supposed to believe that it's normal?

Bull.

[zergrusher2010]

Exactly. If the CAP OB-86B had that much slop in its sleeve/shaft fit, everyone would call it a POS. York does it and we're supposed to believe that it's normal?

Bull.

The CAP OB-86B was something I was considering too but I wanted the center knurling and "better bar". The $50 discount seemed like a great deal for the holidays.

[Stasher1]

The CAP OB-86B was something I was considering too but I wanted the center knurling and "better bar". The $50 discount seemed like a great deal for the holidays.

The OB-86B is a great bar. I have multiple bars, and when it came time to thin the herd, I actually sold a vintage York bar (split sleeve) and kept the 86B.

[zergrusher2010]

Just got an update from Rogue. York has stated that this design change occurred in September 2014 and it is STANDARD. They are offering to swap out the bar for a Rogue B&R 2.0 for the price difference and pay the return shipping for me. Can anyone comment on the sleeves of their new model? I'm assuming that Rogue has fixed York's problems.

Anyway, I'm glad Rogue finally came through. Everyone here and my brother pretty much said that they would. I think York was probably the holdup here.

[Domicron]

i think you know what to do: post a review when you get the b&r 2.0

it's pretty new, so i don't know how many reviews are out there yet. if it sucks, i'm pretty sure rogue will pay for the return

[dieselmike]

Zerg. I just made a video of mine for you to compare. I guess no need to post it now. Glad to hear they got back to you and offered a viable solution.

Not sure how many reviews you are going to get on the 2.0 as it just came out less than a month ago.

One more suggestion. If Rogue is willing to swap for the new version I am sure they would also swap for any of their bars of equal or greater value. It appears that you are more in need of an Oly bar over a power bar. Before getting another bar you aren't happy with I suggest you look into some of their offerings that the crossfit gang really loves. You know the ones that get good reviews on drops from overhead and such.

Good luck. Hope for the most part we were all a help.

[keyboardworkout]

i think you know what to do: post a review when you get the b&r 2.0

This ^

I was very tempted to buy one during the BF deal but decided to wait for reviews (especially on the knurl).

I'm sure the sleeves are fine, they should be the same as on the Ohio Bar in the vid I posted.

[Dont Want None]

[QUOTE=dieselmike;1410016433]What is so terrible about this design? Why is it not acceptable? I am admittedly no expert on barbell design. I have no idea what purpose that inner snap ring serves nor do I really need to know. (kinda curious I guess)

But I do know the bar is capable of loading plates, holding weight, it weighs 20 Kg, it's straight, it doesn't bend, seems incredible strong as I get zero whip on squats when quite loaded. And for whatever purpose it has sleeves that spin longer than would satisfy the most obnoxious crossfitter.[/QUOTE

This was my thoughts as well. I have a Rogue Ohio Bar, and a B&R bar, and while reading through this thread I tested both. The Ohio bar has no "slop" in anyway, the B&R does. But when lifting with the B&R bar (squats, deads, bench), I certainly didn't notice any issues. While this kind of thing might be "bad", can someone expand on the reason why the slop is actually an issue if you are only doing the big lifts... i.e. using the bar as a power bar? Keep in mind, I had a ****ty Cap bar I sold recently, and the difference between that and the B&R bar is night and day, so I'm a little confused on how big of an issues this slop is.

[zergrusher2010]

Zerg. I just made a video of mine for you to compare. I guess no need to post it now. Glad to hear they got back to you and offered a viable solution.

Not sure how many reviews you are going to get on the 2.0 as it just came out less than a month ago.

One more suggestion. If Rogue is willing to swap for the new version I am sure they would also swap for any of their bars of equal or greater value. It appears that you are more in need of an Oly bar over a power bar. Before getting another bar you aren't happy with I suggest you look into some of their offerings that the crossfit gang really loves. You know the ones that get good reviews on drops from overhead and such.

Good luck. Hope for the most part we were all a help.

I am not a crossfitter but do a Rippetoe style workout that is improvised. I wanted a bar that can do everything which is why I settled on the B&R bar for the 29mm shaft and center knurl (for squats) and ability to clean. The v2.0 sounds appopriate and I am going to do a review and take vids and pics like I did for you here. Almost got 50 posts so soon I can embed and link! Awesome!

[Hardgains88]

Good move! I think the Rogue made bars are very good fit and finish and the tolerances are supposed to be extremely tight. This and there reputation for durability make this a no brainer. Glad you are getting a workable resolution and looking forward to your review. Let us know when it is in!

[Cleveland33]

Anyway, I'm glad Rogue finally came through. Everyone here and my brother pretty much said that they would. I think York was probably the holdup here.

You started this on Friday and got a resolution on Monday. That's not a holdup.

[chadsalt]

You started this on Friday and got a resolution on Monday. That's not a holdup.

Yep.

Two business days, going through two companies, for a simple dis-satisfaction claim, at the busiest time of the year.....I would say that's nothing short of phenomenal. Exactly what I've always heard about Rogue. I've bought from Rogue a few times, they will continue to be on my short list for consideration.

[cmarti063]

This ^

I was very tempted to buy one during the BF deal but decided to wait for reviews (especially on the knurl).

I'm sure the sleeves are fine, they should be the same as on the Ohio Bar in the vid I posted.

Here ya go.

http://startingstrength.com/resource...2-0-bar-1.html

Ok peeps, now for the fat *******'s feedback:

I own(ed) two bars, an OPB and a cheap Chinese one. I've been wanting to replace my "pulling" bar (cheap Chinese one) for a while, and with the news that Rogue was making the B&R it piqued my interest. The introductory sale twisted my arm.

I've used an "original" TPB, various Chinese junk bars, various junky globo-gym bars, and the stainless steel GP (or w/e) bars. I have no experience with fancy bearing bars that are whippy.

I agree with everything the other Matt (hollismb) observed.

What I'll add:

-It's damn near identical in dimensions and build to the OPB

-The sleeves spin freely, much better than the OPB

-The knurl is far finer than the OPB. It has excellent feel, unlike the OPB, which is a bit harsh. The knurl makes the bar feel like an industrial-grade tool. Part of this might be because of the bare steel where my OPB is zinc coated.

-During transit, one of the snap rings came loose and the end cap fell out. I went to Harbor Freight (yay) and bought a ring plier set for $17, since I wasn't sure of the size. The largest set fit perfectly and I fixed the issue in 2 minutes.

-I still like the knurl for the OPB better for pressing, as it feels more secure at the end of the ROM. However, if I was forced to say what is the better all-purpose bar, the B&R would be my recommendation.

Here is a link to the imgur gallery.


Note: the OPB is black.

Knurl and sleeve.


Center knurl.


Another knurl comparison.


Endcaps.

Continued...

Comparing the sleeves.


End shot showing the missing (now replaced) endcap.


Hope this helps...

[zergrusher2010]

Zerg. I just made a video of mine for you to compare. I guess no need to post it now. Glad to hear they got back to you and offered a viable solution.

Not sure how many reviews you are going to get on the 2.0 as it just came out less than a month ago.

One more suggestion. If Rogue is willing to swap for the new version I am sure they would also swap for any of their bars of equal or greater value. It appears that you are more in need of an Oly bar over a power bar. Before getting another bar you aren't happy with I suggest you look into some of their offerings that the crossfit gang really loves. You know the ones that get good reviews on drops from overhead and such.

Good luck. Hope for the most part we were all a help.

Yep.

Two business days, going through two companies, for a simple dis-satisfaction claim, at the busiest time of the year.....I would say that's nothing short of phenomenal. Exactly what I've always heard about Rogue. I've bought from Rogue a few times, they will continue to be on my short list for consideration.

They said I can keep using the bar while I wait for the new one. I was not sure I could use it and it is the only real barbell I have which added to my exasperation.

So what does York make that is still worth buying?

[chadsalt]

They said I can keep using the bar while I wait for the new one. I was not sure I could use it and it is the only real barbell I have which added to my exasperation.

So what does York make that is still worth buying?

I'm sure you could have used the bar, what's the worst that could happen? If it breaks they definitely owe you a bar. Or there are plenty of workouts that don't require you to drop the bar your cheap bar could perform in the mean time.

You know you're not supposed to take C4 with coffee, right ?

I'm looking forward to your review of whatever bar you end up with. You clearly have time, energy, and camera equipment to do an excellent job.

York currently makes nothing I would spend money on. I prefer to scour CL for their vintage products.

[zergrusher2010]

I'm sure you could have used the bar, what's the worst that could happen? If it breaks they definitely owe you a bar. Or there are plenty of workouts that don't require you to drop the bar your cheap bar could perform in the mean time.

You know you're not supposed to take C4 with coffee, right ?

I'm looking forward to your review of whatever bar you end up with. You clearly have time, energy, and camera equipment to do an excellent job.

York currently makes nothing I would spend money on. I prefer to scour CL for their vintage products.

I was about to say -- those old plates that say "York" on them look pretty cool.

I was mainly referring to scratching the bar up since I was planning on sending it back anyway. I wasn't sure if I could keep using it for return purposes, not because I thought I would break it over the long term. I'm not doing any cleans with it anymore but I want Rogue to get their money back on the bar.

Sorry about my OCD postings and over-caffeination -- evidently, even John Burgeson at Garage-gyms.com didn't know they changed the design and referred to it as a "stealth change." It is possible they may have changed it when they reduced the tensile strength from 205,000 PSI to 190,000 PSI. Whether any of this matters to anyone is besides the point, but York did some groovy 1.1 updates to the newer post- Sept. 2014 bars and it doesn't look like anyone really noticed. The 2.0 is back up to 205,000 PSI tensile strength and looks a lot better in the pics that were just posted here.

By the way, the camera is just an LG G3 mobile camera. Awesome resolution and features for a smart phone. I'll make sure I do the bumper drop tests, spin tests and B&R sleeve porn money shots for your viewing pleasure.

[BYOBB]

I think you are making the original B&R bar out to be a complete piece of garbage. It is not. As a matter of fact it is a tremendous overall power bar. I could not be more pleased with mine. This whole urban legend that "The B&R Bar is the most returned bar to Rogue" I take with a grain of salt. I saw one person mention that claim on this forum. Then another said the same thing (probably b/c he read it). After people read this all of a sudden it must be true because someone said so on the Internet.

That bar always got great reviews and was humped for years by Mr. Rippetoe himself (obviously). Then the exclusive marketing agreement expired between Rogue and York. Apparently they (Rogue & York) couldn't come to a new agreement and Rogue dropped them to produce it themselves. So what does Mr. Classy (Rip) do? Goes on his public forum and trashes the York version suddenly and is now humping the Rogue version. Of course he is, it has his name on it so he naturally has to say it's great. Just like he used to with his first version. Like him or not, Rip is very relevant to the lifting community and people are going to listen to what he says. Until just recently I heard very few real life complaints about the B&R bar. But now people's mind are polluted.

Be careful what you read on the internet and know people have their own agendas. That why I like to read our (forum members) unbiased opinions who actually own and use this equipment.

Rippetoe has said before that York is a pain to deal with and that Rogue's service makes up for York's shortcomings when it comes to this bar. I saw that he said "They are a much tighter assembly than the old York-manufactured bars", but did not see where he "trashes the York version". In fact he's said time and time again that York came up with the best knurling he's used on any bar on the 1.0 version which is carried over in the new 2.0 made by Rogue. Based on this thread and the corresponding starting strength board thread, a little play in the sleeves was normal for the B&R. If that play isn't present in the 2.0 (and it isn't in the Ohio bar, Ohio Power bar, Rogue Westside bar, Chan bar that I've used often) then it may very well be made to tighter tolerances.

As for biased vs. unbiased, Rippetoe discouraged people on his board from buying the shoes that had his name on them when quality control issues became apparent. It seems you bought a B&R 1.0 not too long ago. What's to say you aren't the one who is biased here when defending the old version? I'm not accusing you, but you seem peeved about a minority opinion of an otherwise well received bar that isn't even made anymore. It was a great bar even if the sleeves moved 2.5mm back and forth!

[dieselmike]

Rippetoe has said before that York is a pain to deal with and that Rogue's service makes up for York's shortcomings when it comes to this bar. I saw that he said "They are a much tighter assembly than the old York-manufactured bars", but did not see where he "trashes the York version". In fact he's said time and time again that York came up with the best knurling he's used on any bar on the 1.0 version which is carried over in the new 2.0 made by Rogue. Based on this thread and the corresponding starting strength board thread, a little play in the sleeves was normal for the B&R. If that play isn't present in the 2.0 (and it isn't in the Ohio bar, Ohio Power bar, Rogue Westside bar, Chan bar that I've used often) then it may very well be made to tighter tolerances.

As for biased vs. unbiased, Rippetoe discouraged people on his board from buying the shoes that had his name on them when quality control issues became apparent. It seems you bought a B&R 1.0 not too long ago. What's to say you aren't the one who is biased here when defending the old version? I'm not accusing you, but you seem peeved about a minority opinion of an otherwise well received bar that isn't even made anymore. It was a great bar even if the sleeves moved 2.5mm back and forth!

Fair enough statements in here. If what you say about Rip discouraging folks about shoes with his name on them is true then I respect that. I wasn't aware of that.

As far as his comments about the bar, I guess it just rubs me in the wrong way the timing of it. Yes, I still feel that by claiming the 1.0 (or 1.1 aka snap ring version) was not straight and the assembly isn't tight is his way of trashing York. Extreme words on my part? Perhaps. But I never saw him make these claims while that bar was in production.

You make a valid point with regard to me defending a bar I own that I paid money for. But it is not bias, it is because I truly feel it is a great bar. I never noticed or tested for play in the sleeves until this thread was started. I also never did a spin test as who really needs a bar to spin endlessly? But once this debate started, I tested both. Play? Yes. Failure to spin smooth as a result? Far from it. I made a video for OP here, but never posted it because his issue was put to bed. But that sucker spun for ~45 seconds with 3 plates and a compression collar. I have yet to see someone give me a valid claim why play in the sleeve is a bad thing when a bar performs like this. I see comments from folks who don't own the bar like "terrible design", "something is wrong with that bar", "I wouldn't accept that from a $100 bar", "It´s clearly not right", "bar is definitely not fine", etc. So yeah, I am defending it from the minority opinion of guys that never used it.

Trust me, this is as unbiased as it comes as I always have been a big fan of Rip's. I have read and own all his books, I've followed the SS program, I give credit to the man for teaching me to finally low bar Squat properly, and I even attended one of his SS seminars in Brooklyn a few years back (those aren't cheap).

Not peeved, just giving OP my take from an actual owner of the bar. I highlighted the last line of your post because that was really my primary point of this entire rant. Rant over.

[BYOBB]

Fair enough statements in here. If what you say about Rip discouraging folks about shoes with his name on them is true then I respect that. I wasn't aware of that.

As far as his comments about the bar, I guess it just rubs me in the wrong way the timing of it. Yes, I still feel that by claiming the 1.0 (or 1.1 aka snap ring version) was not straight and the assembly isn't tight is his way of trashing York. Extreme words on my part? Perhaps. But I never saw him make these claims while that bar was in production.

You make a valid point with regard to me defending a bar I own that I paid money for. But it is not bias, it is because I truly feel it is a great bar. I never noticed or tested for play in the sleeves until this thread was started. I also never did a spin test as who really needs a bar to spin endlessly? But once this debate started, I tested both. Play? Yes. Failure to spin smooth as a result? Far from it. I made a video for OP here, but never posted it because his issue was put to bed. But that sucker spun for ~45 seconds with 3 plates and a compression collar. I have yet to see someone give me a valid claim why play in the sleeve is a bad thing when a bar performs like this. I see comments from folks who don't own the bar like "terrible design", "something is wrong with that bar", "I wouldn't accept that from a $100 bar", "It´s clearly not right", "bar is definitely not fine", etc. So yeah, I am defending it from the minority opinion of guys that never used it.

Trust me, this is as unbiased as it comes as I always have been a big fan of Rip's. I have read and own all his books, I've followed the SS program, I give credit to the man for teaching me to finally low bar Squat properly, and I even attended one of his SS seminars in Brooklyn a few years back (those aren't cheap).

Not peeved, just giving OP my take from an actual owner of the bar. I highlighted the last line of your post because that was really my primary point of this entire rant. Rant over.

Don't get me wrong, I agree that small complaints aren't worth dismissing the bar completely. But expectations have also been raised in the past 5-10 years. Do I think 1mm or 2mm movement really matters? NO! But I do think that if Rogue, American Barbell and others sell similarly priced bars with great fit and finish, it raises the expectations for other companies too. Another issue is that people like Rippetoe, and many on this board, associate the current York with the York of old and expectations are increased again. I found mentions of the B&R bar being in the works from before Rogue was even called Rogue. Back then, your options were Texas Power Bar, Okie, Quest, York, maybe Wright and a few others for decent bars that didn't break the bank. I don't think any of those would sell today with the kind of shoddy quality control that was the norm back then. Today you have the qualities that made those bars good with the addition of excellent quality control, customer service, tighter tolerances, packaging etc. If York did in fact make the changes to the design to cut costs that won't be taken well. $300 gets you a lot of barbell today, and whether valid or not minor complaints are going to be noticed.