*** Official Dragon Ball Super Thread ***

[UnderwearBandit]

Episode 126 SPOILER:

Spoiler!

"Surpass Even a God! Vegeta's Life-Risking Blow."

We ain't no bitch here boys.

[SinaloaCartel]

Would've been nice to see some battle damage on Jiren after the Final Flash. Even Cell lost an arm. Some scuff marks, being out of breath, some blood drip out of his mouth or nose.

Otherwise I really liked the episode. That acrobatic choreography gents is how fights should be.

Jiren destroyed SSB kaokin x20. He could deflect Vegetas final flash with his eyes or pinky if he really wanted to.

Jiren is just toying with Goku and Vegeta.

Only UI can match or give Jiren a real fight.

[.:Chris:.]

Episode 126 SPOILER:

Spoiler!

"Surpass Even a God! Vegeta's Life-Risking Blow."

We ain't no bitch here boys.

Bruh..this isnt new

Spoiler!

Vegeta did this life risking blow against Buu and actually killed himself.

[RobParks2M]

Bruh..this isnt new

Spoiler!

Vegeta did this life risking blow against Buu and actually killed himself.

That isn't life risking he knew he was gonna die you potato. All the same, it would lead to supreme lolz if Vegeta took one for the team and let Jiren kill him so he would be disqualified. Then Goku dumpsters toppo and the other 3 wreck the rabbit.

[.:Chris:.]

That isn't life risking he knew he was gonna die you potato. All the same, it would lead to supreme lolz if Vegeta took one for the team and let Jiren kill him so he would be disqualified. Then Goku dumpsters toppo and the other 3 wreck the rabbit.

Look you can call me potato all you want but we all know Vegeta will get cucked again and again.

[.:Chris:.]

Honestly im hoping universe 7 loses this tournament. Jiren is portrayed to be too strong and they should keep it like that to the end. It'll give Goku and Vegeta something to work for in future arcs.

[EmmaW4tson]

Some of you take this way too seriously. No U7 will not be eliminated and nobody is going to die.

I'm pretty sure we will see Vegeto and SSB2.

[.:Chris:.]

Some of you take this way too seriously. No U7 will not be eliminated and nobody is going to die.

I'm pretty sure we will see Vegeto and SSB2.

U7 prob will not get eliminated thats why I want them to lose.

[RihanM]

Honestly im hoping universe 7 loses this tournament. Jiren is portrayed to be too strong and they should keep it like that to the end. It'll give Goku and Vegeta something to work for in future arcs.

There won't be a future arc if Universe 7 loses

[Antonio519]

There won't be a future arc if Universe 7 loses

Most likely if U7 loses

U11's wish is going to be to bring back all the universes even the first 4 that got erased (one of which jiren was probably a part of)

This is just the theory I choose to believe

[.:Chris:.]

Most likely if U7 loses

U11's wish is going to be to bring back all the universes even the first 4 that got erased (one of which jiren was probably a part of)

This is just the theory I choose to believe

Ya this has been a theory for awhile.

[BullBoy8]

[BullBoy8]

Most likely if U7 loses

U11's wish is going to be to bring back all the universes even the first 4 that got erased (one of which jiren was probably a part of)

This is just the theory I choose to believe

What’s the theory. He’s from another universe but 11 took him in and he wants his old one back? What universes were lost other than the ones in the tourney? I don’t remember them talking about other universes being destroyed. Only that there are a few universes that were way stronger than the ones in the tourney

[WhirlwindTobias]

What’s the theory. He’s from another universe but 11 took him in and he wants his old one back? What universes were lost other than the ones in the tourney? I don’t remember them talking about other universes being destroyed. Only that there are a few universes that were way stronger than the ones in the tourney

http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Universe

Formerly, there used to be 18 universes in total, but Zeno erased 6 of them when he got mad and Universes 9, 10, 2, 6, 4, and 3 were erased during the Tournament of Power.

[Tuga88]

The drawing for this episode was on point. How do you go from this to what we had earlier in the series? Like how is that acceptable? This show really makes no sense from any point.

Btw, Vegeta did manage to knock Jiren down with the final flash at least...I just don't understand why Jiren is weaker now than when he first fought Goku earlier in the tournament. It wouldn't make sense to be holding back with under 10 mins left and your Universe down on numbers.

[Finaliize]

Okay so, I admit I havent fully watched one episode of Super but have been keeping up with the storyline of Super (multiple arcs) by reading what happens, however, the only thing keeping me from actually investing into the series is... what is with all the transformations? Why does it seem like there are SO many things beyond super saiyan now to keep up with? I know SSJ4 was strictly GT, and God was introduced with the Beerus arc, but im really lost on the whole super saiyan blue and ultra instinct transformations. Is SSJ god lower than these? Feel like there are WAY too many transformations now to keep up with

[.:Chris:.]

Okay so, I admit I havent fully watched one episode of Super but have been keeping up with the storyline of Super (multiple arcs) by reading what happens, however, the only thing keeping me from actually investing into the series is... what is with all the transformations? Why does it seem like there are SO many things beyond super saiyan now to keep up with? I know SSJ4 was strictly GT, and God was introduced with the Beerus arc, but im really lost on the whole super saiyan blue and ultra instinct transformations. Is SSJ god lower than these? Feel like there are WAY too many transformations now to keep up with

Ultra instinct, as I see it, is like a technique like Kaioken which is hard to attain that even some of the GoD still havent mastered. So you can be a god status but not have the ability.

[DASBUNKER]

Animation was hhnnggg seems like we're back to normal next ep. tho :/

There might be a reason Jiren got weaker since Vegeta addressed it when fighting... would have been funny if jiren broke the 4th wall and replied he got a nerf cus it fits the poverty writing in the story.

[wampa]

Inb4 u7 wins due to having the most individuals still fighting

Only 8 minutes left

[Jeremyn87]

Super Saiyan Ego confirmed

I don't know why, but I kept lolling at Toppo's mustache flowing in the wind.

[UnderwearBandit]

Not sure if it's just the artwork.......

Spoiler!

but it's clearly a different look for Vegeta

[Manletbolic]

Not sure if it's just the artwork.......

Spoiler!

but it's clearly a different look for Vegeta

Spoiler!

looks like ssgbss2, it be sick if goku and vegeta evolve different in their respective rights. Kinda like how gohan is mystic but strong than ssj3

[Manletbolic]

The drawing for this episode was on point. How do you go from this to what we had earlier in the series? Like how is that acceptable? This show really makes no sense from any point.

Btw, Vegeta did manage to knock Jiren down with the final flash at least...I just don't understand why Jiren is weaker now than when he first fought Goku earlier in the tournament. It wouldn't make sense to be holding back with under 10 mins left and your Universe down on numbers.

jiren was most likely holding back

or if the writers come up something as extreme as each fight was happening, vegeta and goku were drastically getting stronger due to their saiyan roots plus it being now at god levels.

[aragon416]

The drawing for this episode was on point. How do you go from this to what we had earlier in the series? Like how is that acceptable? This show really makes no sense from any point.

Btw, Vegeta did manage to knock Jiren down with the final flash at least...I just don't understand why Jiren is weaker now than when he first fought Goku earlier in the tournament. It wouldn't make sense to be holding back with under 10 mins left and your Universe down on numbers.

they have different animators. yeseterday's episode had a different animator from the animators from previous episodes. plus they had a few weeks break so it gave the animator more time.

hes not weaker, it seems like he is almost playing with them looking for something that lies beyond strength and he thinks fighting goku/vegeta will allow him to find that. plus he could have eliminated goku a few weeks ago, but he decided to mediate instead. a redditor made a post on this, something along a cosmic war theory where jiren thinks that even if U11 wins, they can still just get wiped out in an instant by Zeno, so he wants to do something about this. (but this might be too "deep" for DBS, but it could tie in with why Mojito was smiling when his U9 was eliminated, i dunno)

Spoiler!

There’s been a lot of information about Jiren that I’ve been rehearing in my mind. Overall, I feel as if the entire Tournament of Power is a misdirect. We’re all being led to believe this is a tournament arc meant to lead to a final confrontation between Goku and Jiren in which, if Dragon Ball holds to its previous tropes, Goku taps into some deeper well of power and emerges the victor. Currently, many fans believe that to be Ultra Instinct. What if that’s all misdirection and this entire tournament is being built up to something completely different? Let’s take a look at Jiren and the story so far.

The Character of Jiren

First of all, let’s look at the character of Jiren. The anime has not done a good job characterizing him, but we can get a glimpse into his personality from the manga, remembering that both the anime and manga are drawing from the same source material provided by Akira Toriyama. From these screens, we know that Jiren is committed to creating a universe that’s safe. His commitment to the idea of justice is such that he won’t even kill bad people – not entirely different from Goku, but also many popular superheroes, and yes, that includes Superman.

Jiren’s Outlook on the Cosmic Order

Despite Jiren’s commitment to the safety of people living in his universe, he’s also unwilling to wipe out another universe to safe his own. He perceives the two acts to be different – a cosmic act that wipes out his universe is a fate that could not be avoided. This is a look at Jiren’s character but also his resignation to the fact that even if he saved the universe for now, that doesn’t mean it will always be safe. It’s a cosmic occurrence beyond his control – only Zeno has that power, a capricious being with no morality that would be recognized by humans.

Jiren’s Motivation

However, we know that Jiren does have one wish, a wish that is never revealed.

Obviously, this is a massive plot point in the story that has yet to be explained. However, we get hints at it in the anime. During his battle with Goku in DBS Episode 122, he asks the following:

“Son Goku, why do you seek to become stronger?”

Goku responds that he’s only looking to get stronger. Jiren takes this answer dismissively, saying that even Goku doesn’t know why he’s trying to get stronger. Goku asks him, in return, why he fights. Jiren’s response is:

“I seek that which lies beyond strength.”

Breakdown

Jiren is a justice oriented character who is simultaneously resigned to the fact that there is a cosmic order that no level of strength can overcome. To get his ‘wish,’ he needs to something that lies beyond strength. All the training in the world won’t help him achieve what he wants. I don’t believe Jiren is capable of being defeated by anyone in the Tournament of Power, no matter how strong Goku and Vegeta get. However, I also believe that defeating Jiren is a misdirection. Currently, everyone is fighting to save their own universe. Many have proposed that Goku or Jiren could wish all the universes back. Some have even argued that Jiren is a variation of the Superman story whose own universe was destroyed, and that he wants to wish his own universe back. However, underlying all of this is one big question:

“What’s the point of wishing things back that Zeno could destroy again in the next instant?”

There are a few curious aspects of Jiren that should be noted. First, he has had multiple opportunities to ring out both Goku and Vegeta. In Episode 122, he could have done so to Vegeta, twice. He didn’t. Instead of eliminating Goku earlier in the tournament, he went into meditation and said the warriors he was needed for were no longer there. Many people took this as arrogance, but what if Jiren was trying to provoke Goku purposefully?

We also know that he wakes up to observe extreme demonstrations of strength. He observed Goku throughout the tournament, and woke up to observe Kefla during her conflict with Goku. He seems to be particularly interested in Saiyans. He even admits so himself, when he says:

“Saiyans… Quite interesting beings.”

Throughout the tournament, Jiren has been more concerned with observing than fighting. He says in his fight with Goku that he’s looking for something beyond strength. He’s not concerned with ringing out either Goku or Vegeta. Vegeta tells Jiren that Jiren is fighting slower and weaker than he did against Goku, almost as if Jiren was letting Vegeta challenge himself.

Proposed Storyline

What if Jiren is genuinely interested in the Saiyans’ potential and wants them to get more powerful? Maybe he truly is above the God of Destruction tier but still finds himself at the mercy of the cosmic order and the Angels. We’ve already seen Vados and Whis act relatively unconcerned about the potential elimination of their universes. Anytime Beerus has seemed stressed about it, Whis has simply accepted the potential for them all to be wiped away (except for himself) as a simple part of the natural order. Vados did give a respectful bow to Champa, but it’s not as if she was broken up about her entire universe disappearing.

This is an uncaring cosmic order in which the Angels, not matter how much we might like their personalities, aren’t particularly invested in the survival of the people that live in those universes. No matter how much Whis might like Earth’s food or Vados might enjoy banter with Champa, at the end of the day, they will (most likely) be around long after their respective universes are gone. The Angels aren’t anybody’s friends, not really, no matter how kind and respectful they might be in general. We have to remember these are entities far above the plane of mortals. And maybe Jiren understands that better than anyone and wants to break that current order.

Maybe he’s looking for people like Goku and Vegeta that can break the current cosmic order, to tap into something beyond mere strength. We already understand the priority Jiren places on meditation. There have been moments in Dragon Ball Super our attention has been drawn to the spirit inside of people, not their ki. Even the first appearance of Super Saiyan God required pure spirit, not ki. Maybe the entire tournament is to emphasize that strength is not enough so long as the universe could be wiped out in a moment. They need more than strength. Jiren doesn’t quite know what that is, but he’s looking for it in people like Goku. He keeps provoking Goku into stronger and stronger feats as he searches for this quality beyond strength that could maybe be used to defeat the current cosmic order of Angels and Gods of Destruction over mortals – essentially waging a divine war to permanently secure the safety and lives of the mortals who live in the universes.

The Super Dragon Balls could still play a role in that, wishing back all the universes that were eliminated – including his own, if that actually happened. But even then, their safety would still be precarious. Jiren needs to find something in people that goes beyond strength and that can be leveraged against the cosmic order. He thinks he sees something in the Saiyans that could help him in his cause, but whether that’s the case or not, we have yet to find out.

Good Morning Edit: Some people in the comments asked about my writing credit. I used to work for Blizzard Entertainment on their Starcraft games and I'm the author of the Floor 21 science fiction series. I like to think I have some experience in writing fiction. If I were the writers of the DBS series, this is probably the storyline I'd write, personally :P

https://www.reddit.com/r/dbz/comment...T8&sh=b92a46aa

Okay so, I admit I havent fully watched one episode of Super but have been keeping up with the storyline of Super (multiple arcs) by reading what happens, however, the only thing keeping me from actually investing into the series is... what is with all the transformations? Why does it seem like there are SO many things beyond super saiyan now to keep up with? I know SSJ4 was strictly GT, and God was introduced with the Beerus arc, but im really lost on the whole super saiyan blue and ultra instinct transformations. Is SSJ god lower than these? Feel like there are WAY too many transformations now to keep up with

its basically a new transformation for every new arc, which is similar to DBZ

saiyan saga = kaioken
freiza saga = SS1
cell saga = SS2
buu saga = SS3

beerus saga = super saiyan god
golden freiza saga = super saiyan blue
U6 saga = super saiyan blue + kaioken
Future trunks sage = ???
Tournament of power = Ultra instinct (which Whis mentioned earlier in the series about not thinking when attacking, dodging)

and yea, super saiyan god is lower than super saiyan blue and UI

[EmmaW4tson]

lol. Pretty sure if you went back throughout history the plots for DB were never that complex and the characters were always road blocks for power/strength/heroics so the saiyans could overcome them.

And vegeta definitely has blue2

[Camalama]

lol. Pretty sure if you went back throughout history the plots for DB were never that complex and the characters were always road blocks for power/strength/heroics so the saiyans could overcome them.

And vegeta definitely has blue2

this. the thought that the reddit guy put into that post was probably more than the collective thoughts of all the writers in dragonball super. i would be pleasantly surprised if the arc took that direction but I doubt it will happen. also the show is meant for kids, i doubt they would go that dark.

[Manletbolic]

they have different animators. yeseterday's episode had a different animator from the animators from previous episodes. plus they had a few weeks break so it gave the animator more time.

hes not weaker, it seems like he is almost playing with them looking for something that lies beyond strength and he thinks fighting goku/vegeta will allow him to find that. plus he could have eliminated goku a few weeks ago, but he decided to mediate instead. a redditor made a post on this, something along a cosmic war theory where jiren thinks that even if U11 wins, they can still just get wiped out in an instant by Zeno, so he wants to do something about this. (but this might be too "deep" for DBS, but it could tie in with why Mojito was smiling when his U9 was eliminated, i dunno)

Spoiler!

There’s been a lot of information about Jiren that I’ve been rehearing in my mind. Overall, I feel as if the entire Tournament of Power is a misdirect. We’re all being led to believe this is a tournament arc meant to lead to a final confrontation between Goku and Jiren in which, if Dragon Ball holds to its previous tropes, Goku taps into some deeper well of power and emerges the victor. Currently, many fans believe that to be Ultra Instinct. What if that’s all misdirection and this entire tournament is being built up to something completely different? Let’s take a look at Jiren and the story so far.

The Character of Jiren

First of all, let’s look at the character of Jiren. The anime has not done a good job characterizing him, but we can get a glimpse into his personality from the manga, remembering that both the anime and manga are drawing from the same source material provided by Akira Toriyama. From these screens, we know that Jiren is committed to creating a universe that’s safe. His commitment to the idea of justice is such that he won’t even kill bad people – not entirely different from Goku, but also many popular superheroes, and yes, that includes Superman.

Jiren’s Outlook on the Cosmic Order

Despite Jiren’s commitment to the safety of people living in his universe, he’s also unwilling to wipe out another universe to safe his own. He perceives the two acts to be different – a cosmic act that wipes out his universe is a fate that could not be avoided. This is a look at Jiren’s character but also his resignation to the fact that even if he saved the universe for now, that doesn’t mean it will always be safe. It’s a cosmic occurrence beyond his control – only Zeno has that power, a capricious being with no morality that would be recognized by humans.

Jiren’s Motivation

However, we know that Jiren does have one wish, a wish that is never revealed.

Obviously, this is a massive plot point in the story that has yet to be explained. However, we get hints at it in the anime. During his battle with Goku in DBS Episode 122, he asks the following:

“Son Goku, why do you seek to become stronger?”

Goku responds that he’s only looking to get stronger. Jiren takes this answer dismissively, saying that even Goku doesn’t know why he’s trying to get stronger. Goku asks him, in return, why he fights. Jiren’s response is:

“I seek that which lies beyond strength.”

Breakdown

Jiren is a justice oriented character who is simultaneously resigned to the fact that there is a cosmic order that no level of strength can overcome. To get his ‘wish,’ he needs to something that lies beyond strength. All the training in the world won’t help him achieve what he wants. I don’t believe Jiren is capable of being defeated by anyone in the Tournament of Power, no matter how strong Goku and Vegeta get. However, I also believe that defeating Jiren is a misdirection. Currently, everyone is fighting to save their own universe. Many have proposed that Goku or Jiren could wish all the universes back. Some have even argued that Jiren is a variation of the Superman story whose own universe was destroyed, and that he wants to wish his own universe back. However, underlying all of this is one big question:

“What’s the point of wishing things back that Zeno could destroy again in the next instant?”

There are a few curious aspects of Jiren that should be noted. First, he has had multiple opportunities to ring out both Goku and Vegeta. In Episode 122, he could have done so to Vegeta, twice. He didn’t. Instead of eliminating Goku earlier in the tournament, he went into meditation and said the warriors he was needed for were no longer there. Many people took this as arrogance, but what if Jiren was trying to provoke Goku purposefully?

We also know that he wakes up to observe extreme demonstrations of strength. He observed Goku throughout the tournament, and woke up to observe Kefla during her conflict with Goku. He seems to be particularly interested in Saiyans. He even admits so himself, when he says:

“Saiyans… Quite interesting beings.”

Throughout the tournament, Jiren has been more concerned with observing than fighting. He says in his fight with Goku that he’s looking for something beyond strength. He’s not concerned with ringing out either Goku or Vegeta. Vegeta tells Jiren that Jiren is fighting slower and weaker than he did against Goku, almost as if Jiren was letting Vegeta challenge himself.

Proposed Storyline

What if Jiren is genuinely interested in the Saiyans’ potential and wants them to get more powerful? Maybe he truly is above the God of Destruction tier but still finds himself at the mercy of the cosmic order and the Angels. We’ve already seen Vados and Whis act relatively unconcerned about the potential elimination of their universes. Anytime Beerus has seemed stressed about it, Whis has simply accepted the potential for them all to be wiped away (except for himself) as a simple part of the natural order. Vados did give a respectful bow to Champa, but it’s not as if she was broken up about her entire universe disappearing.

This is an uncaring cosmic order in which the Angels, not matter how much we might like their personalities, aren’t particularly invested in the survival of the people that live in those universes. No matter how much Whis might like Earth’s food or Vados might enjoy banter with Champa, at the end of the day, they will (most likely) be around long after their respective universes are gone. The Angels aren’t anybody’s friends, not really, no matter how kind and respectful they might be in general. We have to remember these are entities far above the plane of mortals. And maybe Jiren understands that better than anyone and wants to break that current order.

Maybe he’s looking for people like Goku and Vegeta that can break the current cosmic order, to tap into something beyond mere strength. We already understand the priority Jiren places on meditation. There have been moments in Dragon Ball Super our attention has been drawn to the spirit inside of people, not their ki. Even the first appearance of Super Saiyan God required pure spirit, not ki. Maybe the entire tournament is to emphasize that strength is not enough so long as the universe could be wiped out in a moment. They need more than strength. Jiren doesn’t quite know what that is, but he’s looking for it in people like Goku. He keeps provoking Goku into stronger and stronger feats as he searches for this quality beyond strength that could maybe be used to defeat the current cosmic order of Angels and Gods of Destruction over mortals – essentially waging a divine war to permanently secure the safety and lives of the mortals who live in the universes.

The Super Dragon Balls could still play a role in that, wishing back all the universes that were eliminated – including his own, if that actually happened. But even then, their safety would still be precarious. Jiren needs to find something in people that goes beyond strength and that can be leveraged against the cosmic order. He thinks he sees something in the Saiyans that could help him in his cause, but whether that’s the case or not, we have yet to find out.

Good Morning Edit: Some people in the comments asked about my writing credit. I used to work for Blizzard Entertainment on their Starcraft games and I'm the author of the Floor 21 science fiction series. I like to think I have some experience in writing fiction. If I were the writers of the DBS series, this is probably the storyline I'd write, personally :P

https://www.reddit.com/r/dbz/comment...T8&sh=b92a46aa



its basically a new transformation for every new arc, which is similar to DBZ

saiyan saga = kaioken
freiza saga = SS1
cell saga = SS2
buu saga = SS3

beerus saga = super saiyan god
golden freiza saga = super saiyan blue
U6 saga = super saiyan blue + kaioken
Future trunks sage = ???
Tournament of power = Ultra instinct (which Whis mentioned earlier in the series about not thinking when attacking, dodging)

and yea, super saiyan god is lower than super saiyan blue and UI

great explaination

i like that theory alot, jiren is trying to get vegeta and goku stronger, so he can break the cosmic order

[DASBUNKER]

Another underrated great thing from the episode was the music, paired with the animation, ep. was movie level srs

lol at making up any complex plots, only leads to disappointments :'(

[baroni01]

Why doesn't Goku view Zeno as evil, I mean he dislikes Frieza when he kills and yet Zeno is literally destroying whole universes right before his eyes. I would've thought he'd at least be ambivalent about him

[Galindo62]

Toppos moustahce flowing the wind was def funny.

Reminds me of the iron Sheik.