lol @ anyone who wrote off James "best SG in the league" Harden

[sdballer5588]

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you know your post is a straw man within a straw man.

Second chance. Try to actually debate the primary points I made in my post. I'll summarize below to help avoid any confusion.



good scoring + elite efficiency + elite defense + winning attitude>elite scoring + average efficiency + WOAT defense +team cancer


^^ this is about Klay vs Harden. Like I said in my post, I would take Klay in a heartbeat and maybe Jimmy.


You also left out of your entire post anything about the fact that Harden is an awful defender, that he was called out by his teammates for being lazy and getting their coach axed, and that his team has a losing record in a conference which you have pointed out in other threads is inferior to the East this season (while playing the easiest schedule of any NBA team). These things matter.

Klay is on the best team in the league, has slightly regressed as a defender, and cannot create plays the way Harden can.


Calling Klay a "winner" with a "winning attitude" seems nonsensical because Klay and Butler could not ever in a million years replicate any of Harden's performances as top dog.


So klay has better efficiency, on way easier shots, on way less volume for a way better team, and to you this means he is better than Harden.


Yeah I don't know what you're even talking about. Klay and Butler are both not even close to as OVERALL good or as productive as Harden is.







Also - Harden is a poor individual defender. Everyone knows it. It doesn't help that he's his teams only offensive option so he shoulders an enormous workload. Curry is individually a weak defender but no one seems to care because in reality it's the overall package that matters.

Harden is way better overall than Klay or Butler. If your argument was who fits best as a #2 or #3, you might have a better case.


Btw it would take a very real lack of knowledge to say Klay's efficiency is elite (efficiency is TS%) when Hardens is almost identical yet you called his "average". 57.7 vs 59.0


Again this is why you look retarded and lost discussing this stuff.


Also I'm bolding this so you respond, you literally stated Butler was more efficient, despite me showing you the actual numbers that he is NOT more efficient than Harden.

[sdballer5588]

This whole thread is just me nailing people into coffins who are clearly WAY out of their depth in this discussion. Comparing Klay who is a clear #2 option to a clear #1 option in Harden is not only nonsensical on its face, but doesn't even add up by any metric other than eFG%.

Harden is a worse defender, but are you guys honestly under the impression that Harden's defensive metrics wouldn't rise if he went to the leagues best defense? Put Klay on the rockets and his defensive offensive and every other metric would fall.

That's what happens when your role increases. Your flaws are magnified.



You don't need to think Harden is the next Jordan to realize there is no real competition for him at the SG spot. This is just common sense.

[mvpshaq32]

This whole thread is just me nailing people into coffins who are clearly WAY out of their depth in this discussion. Comparing Klay who is a clear #2 option to a clear #1 option in Harden is not only nonsensical on its face, but doesn't even add up by any metric other than eFG%.

Harden is a worse defender, but are you guys honestly under the impression that Harden's defensive metrics wouldn't rise if he went to the leagues best defense? Put Klay on the rockets and his defensive offensive and every other metric would fall.

That's what happens when your role increases. Your flaws are magnified.



You don't need to think Harden is the next Jordan to realize there is no real competition for him at the SG spot. This is just common sense.

lol you literally have no idea what you're talking about. You acknowledged Harden is inherently a bad defender yet his defensive metrics would go up if he were on a better defensive team. So essentially he's getting a false boost in defensive metrics and that would incline you to think Harden is a better defender? that's proof right there you're nothing but a box score watcher.

[Day1086]

Harden is easily the best SG in the league lol

He's just not who I want as my main star. Same with westbrook. But when ranking individuals I'll give them their credit as top 8 players

[speedyclaxton]

Harden is easily the best SG in the league lol

He's just not who I want as my main star. Same with westbrook. But when ranking individuals I'll give them their credit as top 8 players

Lol at harden being a top 8 player.

Curry
lebron
Westbrook
Kawhi
george
griffin
davis
durant

Lmaol....lmaol..just lmaol

[4backcracks]

Klay is on the best team in the league, has slightly regressed as a defender, and cannot create plays the way Harden can.


Calling Klay a "winner" with a "winning attitude" seems nonsensical because Klay and Butler could not ever in a million years replicate any of Harden's performances as top dog.


So klay has better efficiency, on way easier shots, on way less volume for a way better team, and to you this means he is better than Harden.


Yeah I don't know what you're even talking about. Klay and Butler are both not even close to as OVERALL good or as productive as Harden is.







Also - Harden is a poor individual defender. Everyone knows it. It doesn't help that he's his teams only offensive option so he shoulders an enormous workload. Curry is individually a weak defender but no one seems to care because in reality it's the overall package that matters.

Harden is way better overall than Klay or Butler. If your argument was who fits best as a #2 or #3, you might have a better case.


Btw it would take a very real lack of knowledge to say Klay's efficiency is elite (efficiency is TS%) when Hardens is almost identical yet you called his "average". 57.7 vs 59.0


Again this is why you look retarded and lost discussing this stuff.


Also I'm bolding this so you respond, you literally stated Butler was more efficient, despite me showing you the actual numbers that he is NOT more efficient than Harden.

You get much too emotional for me and you're making every effort to obscure my argument and create as many strawmen as possible, so I'll make this even more simple for you and leave on this note.

The difference between Harden and Klay offensively is the difference between elite and very good. Klay's insane efficiency on relatively few shots leads me to think he could be dropping between 23-25 pgg and would end up with an eFG comparable to that of Harden's, but this is just conjecture and is secondary to my argument. The big lesson from this paragraph is that the difference between Klay and Harden offensively is the difference between elite and very good.

The difference between Harden and Klay defensively is the difference between a good/very good defender and one of the worst in the NBA. Not only is there a HUGE difference in opponent eFG (37% for Klay and 55% for Harden) but opponents also take 50% more shots against Harden than they do against Klay. Understand this plainly. Opponents take 50% more shots against Harden than against Klay. That is a HUGE difference in volume. As you've repeatedly noted ITT and as is pretty obvious, a greater volume of shots usually equates to a lower percentage. However, Harden is also 18% higher in opponent eFG allowed which is also a HUGE difference.

Of course Harden would benefit from playing on a better defensive team, but that doesn't explain away the fuking CHASM between Klay's defensive numbers and Harden's.

Cliffs so far.
- The difference offensively is between elite and very good.
- The difference defensively is between very good and literally one of the worst in the NBA.


What seals the deal for me is the fact that Harden is a pos teammate, and he is the leader of a talented team that sits with a losing record while playing an absurdly easy schedule (THE easiest in the NBA). FFS his teammates called a meeting where they told him point blank they blamed his laziness for the team's coach being fired.


Only 3 of the last 8 NBA champions have had top 5 offenses. 2 have been outside the top 10.
6 of the last 8 NBA champions have had top 5 defenses. None have been outside the top 10.
Average offensive rank #8 Average defensive rank # 4

You cannot win a championship without a genuinely elite defense. You CAN win a championship without an elite offense.


If I'm starting a contender from scratch I would take Klay in a heartbeat and maybe Jimmy. You can keep Melo 2.0 babe

[fleeceitout]

This whole thread is just me nailing people into coffins who are clearly WAY out of their depth in this discussion.

Just when you think this kid can't get any more sad and delusional...

[speedyclaxton]

Lol melo 2.0

[4backcracks]

Just when you think this kid can't get any more sad and delusional...

Lol melo 2.0

Would like to hear other arguments. If you have to start building a championship team, which SG do you take?

[speedyclaxton]

Would like to hear other arguments. If you have to start building a championship team, which SG do you take?

Really depends on the personnel. To me, Butler is probably a great fit regardless of your personnel or when you have other star players in the team.

If we're talking about starting from Scratch, Harden no doubt. He's an elite playmaker when he wants.

Klay is probably out of this conversation...Both Butler and Harden can create for their team. Klay is pretty much the best 3 and D player...He's a great off ball player. but he is not a creator.

It's between Butler and Harden. Butler if you know you're going to add another star or two..Harden if you don't have that luxury.

[fleeceitout]

Would like to hear other arguments. If you have to start building a championship team, which SG do you take?

I'd take Jimmy Buckets. He's shown he can handle the load on both ends of the floor and steps up his game in the playoffs.

Harden is out of the conversation. Dude relies too heavily on getting bailed out by the refs, is a liability on defense, turnover prone and a playoff choker.

[speedyclaxton]

and yeah, I think Harden is no doubt the best SG in the league.

I like Butler's game though. He's got winning on his DNA, Imo..he's always trying to do things for the betterment of the team.

It's unfortuante that the Bulls are pretty mediocre but if he had better players around him people are probably going to look at him as a legit rival for Harden.

The SG position right now is so weak though...Harden is barely a top 10 player and Butler is the only top 11-20 player SG.

[Shortstop36]

I don't know how anyone can like this dude. When half your points come from flopping and neck snapping to get to the line, you're a bitch.

what i don't get about this poverty argument is then why doesn't everyone else do it?if all they have to do is flop?????? Harden is just the best at drawing fouls.

[HotRod23]

damn, some of you guys really hate james harden . theres no way klay thompson would perform anywhere close to harden if he was the main ball handler lol. he is the worst defender ive ever seen play for the rockets though, lazy mofo

[Shortstop36]

I'd take Jimmy Buckets. He's shown he can handle the load on both ends of the floor and steps up his game in the playoffs.

Harden is out of the conversation. Dude relies too heavily on getting bailed out by the refs, is a liability on defense, turnover prone and a playoff choker.

This is one of the worst posts i've ever read on the misc. seriously

[fleeceitout]

This is one of the worst posts i've ever read on the misc. seriously

Implying your opinion on the matter is worth anything or you have some kind of credibility....

Run along now little boy.

[sdballer5588]

You get much too emotional for me and you're making every effort to obscure my argument and create as many strawmen as possible, so I'll make this even more simple for you and leave on this note.

The difference between Harden and Klay offensively is the difference between elite and very good. Klay's insane efficiency on relatively few shots leads me to think he could be dropping between 23-25 pgg and would end up with an eFG comparable to that of Harden's, but this is just conjecture and is secondary to my argument. The big lesson from this paragraph is that the difference between Klay and Harden offensively is the difference between elite and very good.

The difference between Harden and Klay defensively is the difference between a good/very good defender and one of the worst in the NBA. Not only is there a HUGE difference in opponent eFG (37% for Klay and 55% for Harden) but opponents also take 50% more shots against Harden than they do against Klay. Understand this plainly. Opponents take 50% more shots against Harden than against Klay. That is a HUGE difference in volume. As you've repeatedly noted ITT and as is pretty obvious, a greater volume of shots usually equates to a lower percentage. However, Harden is also 18% higher in opponent eFG allowed which is also a HUGE difference.

Of course Harden would benefit from playing on a better defensive team, but that doesn't explain away the fuking CHASM between Klay's defensive numbers and Harden's.

Cliffs so far.
- The difference offensively is between elite and very good.
- The difference defensively is between very good and literally one of the worst in the NBA.


What seals the deal for me is the fact that Harden is a pos teammate, and he is the leader of a talented team that sits with a losing record while playing an absurdly easy schedule (THE easiest in the NBA). FFS his teammates called a meeting where they told him point blank they blamed his laziness for the team's coach being fired.


Only 3 of the last 8 NBA champions have had top 5 offenses. 2 have been outside the top 10.
6 of the last 8 NBA champions have had top 5 defenses. None have been outside the top 10.
Average offensive rank #8 Average defensive rank # 4

You cannot win a championship without a genuinely elite defense. You CAN win a championship without an elite offense.


If I'm starting a contender from scratch I would take Klay in a heartbeat and maybe Jimmy. You can keep Melo 2.0 babe

It's hard to talk to someone who posts factually inaccurate things and then thinks they've won.


You're mad lost if you think Klay and Harden are even in the same universe offensively. Klay's percent assisted is 72.2%

Harden's is 52%

An astronomical 20% gap. You either don't watch basketball or you're just genuinely confused. Either way I very seriously do not care to argue with someone who clearly is in over their head but wants to speak as an authority.

Harden is the best SG in the league. There is not a single thing anyone can say to debate that lol, all Klay has is efficiency and some defensive play. Every advanced metric favors Harden


VORP
PER
WS


By the way since you seem obsessed with defense, 3 GS players are ranked in the top 17 of DRPM, Klay is not one of them.

He's not even on the first 3 pages.

[Shortstop36]

Implying your opinion on the matter is worth anything or you have some kind of credibility....

Run along now little boy.

lol nice brah


James "Playoff Choker" Harden , Jimmy "Steps up in playoffs" Butler


Let's play a game. Which postseason stats belong to which player.





27.2 Points, 7.5 assists 5.7 rebs .44fg % "Playoff Choker"

22.9 Points, 3.2 assists 5.6 rebounds .44% "Steps it up in playoffs"

[fleeceitout]

lol nice brah


James "Playoff Choker" Harden , Jimmy "Steps up in playoffs" Butler


Let's play a game. Which postseason stats belong to which player.





27.2 Points, 7.5 assists 5.7 rebs .44fg % "Playoff Choker"

22.9 Points, 3.2 assists 5.6 rebounds .44% "Steps it up in playoffs"

But who was defense?

But who was going 2-11 with 12 turnovers in an elimination game?

[sdballer5588]

Also- these arguments are so predictable, everyone knocks Harden's defense, which literally no one is even defending, and then they post nonsense that has nothing comparable.


4backcracks is basically using an intangible, a 2 percent TS% difference (which is still lower than Harden's CAREER average) and some random defensive talk.

[Shortstop36]

But who was defense?

But who was going 2-11 with 12 turnovers in an elimination game?

Ahhhhh nice cherry picking of stats.


45-9-5
38-10-9


I can too. Those are against the same team that potentially will break the single season win record, while leading a team full of scrubs. You're either low IQ or hate harden (save yourself and go for the hating harden route)

[fleeceitout]

Ahhhhh nice cherry picking of stats.


45-9-5
38-10-9


I can too. Those are against the same team that potentially will break the single season win record, while leading a team full of scrubs. You're either low IQ or hate harden (save yourself and go for the hating harden route)

Sorry kid, you lost and got embarrassed, much like Harden in the playoffs.

It's the same story year in year out.

Just take you L and move on.

[Shortstop36]

Sorry kid, you lost and got embarrassed, much like Harden in the playoffs.

It's the same story year in year out.

Just take you L and move on.

Also- these arguments are so predictable, everyone knocks Harden's defense, which literally no one is even defending, and then they post nonsense that has nothing comparable.


4backcracks is basically using an intangible, a 2 percent TS% difference (which is still lower than Harden's CAREER average) and some random defensive talk.

cosign.

[fleeceitout]

^^^

That is the equivalent to knocking the board over when you realise you've lost.

Good job you two.

[tonyparker69]

Would like to hear other arguments. If you have to start building a championship team, which SG do you take?

Jimmy.

Harden is the better player, but Jimmy seems like the super hard working clubhouse type while Harden gets told by his own team that he's lazy af lol

[sdballer5588]

Lol no this is just literally SUCH a non argument it's INSANE. Their raw stats aren't even CLOSE to comparable, and Klay is BARELY ahead of Harden in any advanced metric, so the comparison is literally laughable.


Does someone REALLY think Klay could lead his OWN TEAM to the WCF? lol

[Shortstop36]

Jimmy.

Harden is the better player, but Jimmy seems like the super hard working clubhouse type while Harden gets told by his own team that he's lazy af lol

Also- these arguments are so predictable, everyone knocks Harden's defense, which literally no one is even defending, and then they post nonsense that has nothing comparable.


4backcracks is basically using an intangible, a 2 percent TS% difference (which is still lower than Harden's CAREER average) and some random defensive talk.

....

[sdballer5588]

....

Don't forget klay has a "winning attitude"

Even though Klay might literally have the lowest bball iq on the warriors lol, which ANY warrior fan would tell you in a second. Absolutely potato shot creator/passer/dribbler

[Dave P]

Klay is a perfect Robin, he'd be a terrible Batman.


Would never build around him but as a compliment you can't do much better.

[speedyclaxton]

Leave it to SDballer to talk about RAW stats. Dude is a legit mainstream raw stats watcher.

Harden is the best SG in the league but Butler isnt that far off like so many idiots claim.