Klay is on the best team in the league, has slightly regressed as a defender, and cannot create plays the way Harden can.
Calling Klay a "winner" with a "winning attitude" seems nonsensical because Klay and Butler could not ever in a million years replicate any of Harden's performances as top dog.
So klay has better efficiency, on way easier shots, on way less volume for a way better team, and to you this means he is better than Harden.
Yeah I don't know what you're even talking about. Klay and Butler are both not even close to as OVERALL good or as productive as Harden is.
Also - Harden is a poor individual defender. Everyone knows it. It doesn't help that he's his teams only offensive option so he shoulders an enormous workload. Curry is individually a weak defender but no one seems to care because in reality it's the overall package that matters.
Harden is way better overall than Klay or Butler. If your argument was who fits best as a #2 or #3, you might have a better case.
Btw it would take a very real lack of knowledge to say Klay's efficiency is elite (efficiency is TS%) when Hardens is almost identical yet you called his "average". 57.7 vs 59.0
Again this is why you look retarded and lost discussing this stuff.
Also I'm bolding this so you respond, you literally stated Butler was more efficient, despite me showing you the actual numbers that he is NOT more efficient than Harden.
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12-15-2015, 01:42 PM #301
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Last edited by sdballer5588; 12-15-2015 at 01:50 PM.
Originally Posted by RogerSterling i workout for my health, dont feel the need to eat if i'm not hungry since i still get plenty of puss being the weight i am now.
If I'm becoming a monster, it’s all yall fault
You can’t be a gentleman when you swimming with sharks
When you can be superman, who wanna be Clark Kent?
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12-15-2015, 01:48 PM #302
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This whole thread is just me nailing people into coffins who are clearly WAY out of their depth in this discussion. Comparing Klay who is a clear #2 option to a clear #1 option in Harden is not only nonsensical on its face, but doesn't even add up by any metric other than eFG%.
Harden is a worse defender, but are you guys honestly under the impression that Harden's defensive metrics wouldn't rise if he went to the leagues best defense? Put Klay on the rockets and his defensive offensive and every other metric would fall.
That's what happens when your role increases. Your flaws are magnified.
You don't need to think Harden is the next Jordan to realize there is no real competition for him at the SG spot. This is just common sense.Originally Posted by RogerSterling i workout for my health, dont feel the need to eat if i'm not hungry since i still get plenty of puss being the weight i am now.
If I'm becoming a monster, it’s all yall fault
You can’t be a gentleman when you swimming with sharks
When you can be superman, who wanna be Clark Kent?
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12-15-2015, 02:20 PM #303
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lol you literally have no idea what you're talking about. You acknowledged Harden is inherently a bad defender yet his defensive metrics would go up if he were on a better defensive team. So essentially he's getting a false boost in defensive metrics and that would incline you to think Harden is a better defender? that's proof right there you're nothing but a box score watcher.
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12-15-2015, 02:24 PM #304
Harden is easily the best SG in the league lol
He's just not who I want as my main star. Same with westbrook. But when ranking individuals I'll give them their credit as top 8 players***Successfully Masturbates Under the Cape While Getting a Haircut Crew***
***Can Dribble A Ball Across Halfcourt Against NBA Defense Crew***
Boston Celtics
Golden State Warriors
Steph Curry GOAT. We are all Wetnesses
Make that old
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12-15-2015, 03:53 PM #305
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12-15-2015, 09:27 PM #306
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You get much too emotional for me and you're making every effort to obscure my argument and create as many strawmen as possible, so I'll make this even more simple for you and leave on this note.
The difference between Harden and Klay offensively is the difference between elite and very good. Klay's insane efficiency on relatively few shots leads me to think he could be dropping between 23-25 pgg and would end up with an eFG comparable to that of Harden's, but this is just conjecture and is secondary to my argument. The big lesson from this paragraph is that the difference between Klay and Harden offensively is the difference between elite and very good.
The difference between Harden and Klay defensively is the difference between a good/very good defender and one of the worst in the NBA. Not only is there a HUGE difference in opponent eFG (37% for Klay and 55% for Harden) but opponents also take 50% more shots against Harden than they do against Klay. Understand this plainly. Opponents take 50% more shots against Harden than against Klay. That is a HUGE difference in volume. As you've repeatedly noted ITT and as is pretty obvious, a greater volume of shots usually equates to a lower percentage. However, Harden is also 18% higher in opponent eFG allowed which is also a HUGE difference.
Of course Harden would benefit from playing on a better defensive team, but that doesn't explain away the fuking CHASM between Klay's defensive numbers and Harden's.
Cliffs so far.
- The difference offensively is between elite and very good.
- The difference defensively is between very good and literally one of the worst in the NBA.
What seals the deal for me is the fact that Harden is a pos teammate, and he is the leader of a talented team that sits with a losing record while playing an absurdly easy schedule (THE easiest in the NBA). FFS his teammates called a meeting where they told him point blank they blamed his laziness for the team's coach being fired.
Only 3 of the last 8 NBA champions have had top 5 offenses. 2 have been outside the top 10.
6 of the last 8 NBA champions have had top 5 defenses. None have been outside the top 10.
Average offensive rank #8 Average defensive rank # 4
You cannot win a championship without a genuinely elite defense. You CAN win a championship without an elite offense.
If I'm starting a contender from scratch I would take Klay in a heartbeat and maybe Jimmy. You can keep Melo 2.0 babeWill you still rep me when I'm no longer age:20 and aesthetic?
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12-15-2015, 09:33 PM #307
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12-15-2015, 09:34 PM #308
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12-15-2015, 09:41 PM #309
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12-15-2015, 09:52 PM #310
Really depends on the personnel. To me, Butler is probably a great fit regardless of your personnel or when you have other star players in the team.
If we're talking about starting from Scratch, Harden no doubt. He's an elite playmaker when he wants.
Klay is probably out of this conversation...Both Butler and Harden can create for their team. Klay is pretty much the best 3 and D player...He's a great off ball player. but he is not a creator.
It's between Butler and Harden. Butler if you know you're going to add another star or two..Harden if you don't have that luxury.
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12-15-2015, 10:08 PM #311
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12-15-2015, 10:12 PM #312
and yeah, I think Harden is no doubt the best SG in the league.
I like Butler's game though. He's got winning on his DNA, Imo..he's always trying to do things for the betterment of the team.
It's unfortuante that the Bulls are pretty mediocre but if he had better players around him people are probably going to look at him as a legit rival for Harden.
The SG position right now is so weak though...Harden is barely a top 10 player and Butler is the only top 11-20 player SG.
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12-15-2015, 10:55 PM #313
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12-15-2015, 10:56 PM #314
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12-15-2015, 11:02 PM #315
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12-15-2015, 11:08 PM #316
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12-15-2015, 11:12 PM #317
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It's hard to talk to someone who posts factually inaccurate things and then thinks they've won.
You're mad lost if you think Klay and Harden are even in the same universe offensively. Klay's percent assisted is 72.2%
Harden's is 52%
An astronomical 20% gap. You either don't watch basketball or you're just genuinely confused. Either way I very seriously do not care to argue with someone who clearly is in over their head but wants to speak as an authority.
Harden is the best SG in the league. There is not a single thing anyone can say to debate that lol, all Klay has is efficiency and some defensive play. Every advanced metric favors Harden
VORP
PER
WS
By the way since you seem obsessed with defense, 3 GS players are ranked in the top 17 of DRPM, Klay is not one of them.
He's not even on the first 3 pages.Last edited by sdballer5588; 12-15-2015 at 11:22 PM.
Originally Posted by RogerSterling i workout for my health, dont feel the need to eat if i'm not hungry since i still get plenty of puss being the weight i am now.
If I'm becoming a monster, it’s all yall fault
You can’t be a gentleman when you swimming with sharks
When you can be superman, who wanna be Clark Kent?
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12-15-2015, 11:15 PM #318
lol nice brah
James "Playoff Choker" Harden , Jimmy "Steps up in playoffs" Butler
Let's play a game. Which postseason stats belong to which player.
27.2 Points, 7.5 assists 5.7 rebs .44fg % "Playoff Choker"
22.9 Points, 3.2 assists 5.6 rebounds .44% "Steps it up in playoffs"
Red Sox 2018 MLB champs
Tommy 12 inch crew
Nikola Jokic, Montrezl truther
DRuss gonna be an all-star in BKNY crew
Jaylen, Jayson (7/11) Crew
Gordon Chadward Crew
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12-15-2015, 11:21 PM #319
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12-15-2015, 11:23 PM #320
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Also- these arguments are so predictable, everyone knocks Harden's defense, which literally no one is even defending, and then they post nonsense that has nothing comparable.
4backcracks is basically using an intangible, a 2 percent TS% difference (which is still lower than Harden's CAREER average) and some random defensive talk.Originally Posted by RogerSterling i workout for my health, dont feel the need to eat if i'm not hungry since i still get plenty of puss being the weight i am now.
If I'm becoming a monster, it’s all yall fault
You can’t be a gentleman when you swimming with sharks
When you can be superman, who wanna be Clark Kent?
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12-15-2015, 11:32 PM #321
Ahhhhh nice cherry picking of stats.
45-9-5
38-10-9
I can too. Those are against the same team that potentially will break the single season win record, while leading a team full of scrubs. You're either low IQ or hate harden (save yourself and go for the hating harden route)Red Sox 2018 MLB champs
Tommy 12 inch crew
Nikola Jokic, Montrezl truther
DRuss gonna be an all-star in BKNY crew
Jaylen, Jayson (7/11) Crew
Gordon Chadward Crew
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12-15-2015, 11:43 PM #322
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12-15-2015, 11:47 PM #323
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12-15-2015, 11:54 PM #324
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12-15-2015, 11:57 PM #325
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12-16-2015, 12:02 AM #326
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Lol no this is just literally SUCH a non argument it's INSANE. Their raw stats aren't even CLOSE to comparable, and Klay is BARELY ahead of Harden in any advanced metric, so the comparison is literally laughable.
Does someone REALLY think Klay could lead his OWN TEAM to the WCF? lolOriginally Posted by RogerSterling i workout for my health, dont feel the need to eat if i'm not hungry since i still get plenty of puss being the weight i am now.
If I'm becoming a monster, it’s all yall fault
You can’t be a gentleman when you swimming with sharks
When you can be superman, who wanna be Clark Kent?
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12-16-2015, 12:02 AM #327
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12-16-2015, 12:10 AM #328
- Join Date: Apr 2010
- Location: Massachusetts, United States
- Posts: 40,885
- Rep Power: 37939
Originally Posted by RogerSterling i workout for my health, dont feel the need to eat if i'm not hungry since i still get plenty of puss being the weight i am now.
If I'm becoming a monster, it’s all yall fault
You can’t be a gentleman when you swimming with sharks
When you can be superman, who wanna be Clark Kent?
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12-16-2015, 12:16 AM #329
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12-16-2015, 12:29 AM #330
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