AllPro: A Simple Beginner's Routine part VI

[nightanole]

I have been on this program off and on for about 2-3 years but steady for the last 9 months. I go to the gym 5 consecutive days or 6 days a week and am getting to the point where the non lifting days are bothering me. I enjoy lifting so much that i am kind of bummed to go to the gym and do cardio only or just some cardio and abs. Do you think it would be time to jump off of this routine? i am still classified as obese but i am down from 300 pounds to 254 pounds but waist size i have dropped from 44 to between a 36 and 38 waist now. I am squating my body weight(254), bench is at 180#, OHP is 100#. Thanks in advance for the help.

At 5.9 you really shouldnt be above about 190lbs, even at 20%. You could continue the routine till then at least. For you, once you are at 20%, allpro will be incredibly hard, so you will need to switch to a routine with a much slower progression pattern, or switch to auto regulated so you can go at your own pace.

Since you like the gym so much, i would highly look into a GPP work program for the other 3 days in the gym, and focus the other 3 days on lifting. These will have some symmetry since one will be helping the recovery/performance of the other. Unfortunately for humans, we have a certain amount of volume we can recover from, not matter how strong we are. Someone who can bench 250lbs for 1 rep, is not going to be able to recover from 5 sets of 5 with 200lbs 3 days a week, even if you never add weight to the bar.

[nightanole]

Ok I'm 31 6'2 225 scale I have ranges between 18-22% bf. I ran track in college but let my body go. I have been going to the gym consistently for a year with no plan. I found this program and decided to do it. Here are my test results

Squat-205
Bench-175
BOR-155
OHP-105
SLDL-155
Curls-70

I also calculated my TEE as 2622. I will eat 2400 cal a day.
200 G protein
100 g fat
The rest carbs.

I want to drop body fat and increase strength. How does this program look?

looks pretty good, and i see no imbalances. The 200g of protein will help with hunger, if you are having recovery issues, or your 2nd set sucks, you may want to shift 50g of protein to carbs.

If you know in advance you're going to miss "light day" for the week, do you go ahead and still do 2 heavy days?

you can miss 1-2 light days per cycle. And yes 2 heavys (72 hours apart) is just as effective as heavy/medium/light, its just dam hard.

[bigperm0107]

At 5.9 you really shouldnt be above about 190lbs, even at 20%. You could continue the routine till then at least. For you, once you are at 20%, allpro will be incredibly hard, so you will need to switch to a routine with a much slower progression pattern, or switch to auto regulated so you can go at your own pace.

Since you like the gym so much, i would highly look into a GPP work program for the other 3 days in the gym, and focus the other 3 days on lifting. These will have some symmetry since one will be helping the recovery/performance of the other. Unfortunately for humans, we have a certain amount of volume we can recover from, not matter how strong we are. Someone who can bench 250lbs for 1 rep, is not going to be able to recover from 5 sets of 5 with 200lbs 3 days a week, even if you never add weight to the bar.

Thank you very much for the reply. So you think that I should just stay on the All Pros program until i get down to around 190? I think my squats being at 250 are maxed out as i do not know if i can go up 10% this next time. Should i leave the weight as is or jump it 5% rather than 10%? As for the GPP are you saying that on my non lifting days I can do things like pushups and those sorts of things other than cardio? Would those types of things impact my lifts? Thanks again for the reply I really appreciate you taking the time to respond back.

[nightanole]

Thank you very much for the reply. So you think that I should just stay on the All Pros program until i get down to around 190? I think my squats being at 250 are maxed out as i do not know if i can go up 10% this next time. Should i leave the weight as is or jump it 5% rather than 10%? As for the GPP are you saying that on my non lifting days I can do things like pushups and those sorts of things other than cardio? Would those types of things impact my lifts? Thanks again for the reply I really appreciate you taking the time to respond back.

https://www.t-nation.com/training/pr...l-guide-to-gpp
You could also call it "speed work".

As far as your lifts, my technical (aka can just walk in the gym and do it) 1 rep max for squats is 265lbs with a 155lb body weight. So i see no issue with someone squatting 250lbs for reps at 190lbs, even if they do carry another 15-20lbs of fat. So yea i would try to just hold onto your working weights and drop that 50lbs over the next 6 months or so. That would be about the end of the beginner phase, you would be between 190-210lbs around 19%bf, with around a 315 1 rep max on squats, which is what most coaches are shooting for for lifters in the first 12-18 months.

[UncleLemmon]

during my workouts, if i fail an exercise (eg Bench Press 12 reps followed by 9 reps) i have been adding a third set with 25% less weight to work those muscles a bit more. is this counter productive or will it help?

[daawhitty]

during my workouts, if i fail an exercise (eg Bench Press 12 reps followed by 9 reps) i have been adding a third set with 25% less weight to work those muscles a bit more. is this counter productive or will it help?

I think it depends on you as a lifter, if you are a beginner. I wouldn't be adding any extra volume, as you should be able to get more reps the following week without adding anymore sets. If it happens again then maybee you started too heavy. Also check the usual causes for slow/now progress your Food, Sleep and Stress levels.

[nightanole]

during my workouts, if i fail an exercise (eg Bench Press 12 reps followed by 9 reps) i have been adding a third set with 25% less weight to work those muscles a bit more. is this counter productive or will it help?

That is normally a diet or recovery issue. You are running on 2 energy systems on the first set, but due to the 90 second rest, we do not allow one of the energy systems to recover, this causes the other energy system to work harder.

What you are doing is called "drop sets", but they are normally programmed in as volume work AFTER you get your primary set in without a failed rep.

[GentzAU]

Hey OP, loving the setup of your routine and decided to give it a go today.

Wanted to shoot you a question regarding OHP. Around August last year, an (at the time) undiagnosed c5/c6 disc herniation started to cause major issues and my lifting went downhill; haven't been able to get back to the same numbers since then (for now, still have hope). My slipped disc usually triggers whenever weight is pressed overhead, and I was wondering if incline bench press combined with a "wider" grip upright row would be acceptable alternatives?

Any OHP triggers the disc in my neck whether it be standing, seated or machine. I've also had issues with facepulls and a lot of exercises that take the arms above neck level in a pressing motion (incline bench seems okay, but I have to be picky about the angle). And I really don't want to aggravate it as it can put out of the gym for some time; not to mention its extremely painful and reduces my neck ROM substantially.

Are the above modifications okay, or do you have any suggestions?

Thanks!

[nightanole]

Hey OP, loving the setup of your routine and decided to give it a go today.

Wanted to shoot you a question regarding OHP. Around August last year, an (at the time) undiagnosed c5/c6 disc herniation started to cause major issues and my lifting went downhill; haven't been able to get back to the same numbers since then (for now, still have hope). My slipped disc usually triggers whenever weight is pressed overhead, and I was wondering if incline bench press combined with a "wider" grip upright row would be acceptable alternatives?

Any OHP triggers the disc in my neck whether it be standing, seated or machine. I've also had issues with facepulls and a lot of exercises that take the arms above neck level in a pressing motion (incline bench seems okay, but I have to be picky about the angle). And I really don't want to aggravate it as it can put out of the gym for some time; not to mention its extremely painful and reduces my neck ROM substantially.

Are the above modifications okay, or do you have any suggestions?

Thanks!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0yeJkwavFs

If not i have to dig around for an incline with the correct accessories for delt work.

[hoverboy]

Hey, going into cycle 5 now, and I have a pretty serious imbalance where my shoulder press is less than half of my bench press. What kind of supplementary shoulder work can I start with to correct that? I've also been seeing good size increase in a lot of areas, but my triceps don't really seem to be popping out much, so hopefully whatever I add can help with that.

I'm also thinking about getting rid of the bicep curl on this cycle, and replacing it with the upright barbell row, like you mention in the first post. Can I do that this cycle, or would you recommend only changing one thing at a time?

[nightanole]

Hey, going into cycle 5 now, and I have a pretty serious imbalance where my shoulder press is less than half of my bench press. What kind of supplementary shoulder work can I start with to correct that? I've also been seeing good size increase in a lot of areas, but my triceps don't really seem to be popping out much, so hopefully whatever I add can help with that.

I'm also thinking about getting rid of the bicep curl on this cycle, and replacing it with the upright barbell row, like you mention in the first post. Can I do that this cycle, or would you recommend only changing one thing at a time?

That would be a heavy pushpress, around the same weight as you bench. You should be able to get 1-2 reps per session. Lowering the weight will put a ALOT stress on your triceps compared to the bench, which should help with pop. Just do one set after each workout, with a weight you can do less than 4 reps.

[bigperm0107]

https://www.t-nation.com/training/pr...l-guide-to-gpp
You could also call it "speed work".

As far as your lifts, my technical (aka can just walk in the gym and do it) 1 rep max for squats is 265lbs with a 155lb body weight. So i see no issue with someone squatting 250lbs for reps at 190lbs, even if they do carry another 15-20lbs of fat. So yea i would try to just hold onto your working weights and drop that 50lbs over the next 6 months or so. That would be about the end of the beginner phase, you would be between 190-210lbs around 19%bf, with around a 315 1 rep max on squats, which is what most coaches are shooting for for lifters in the first 12-18 months.

Thank you very much. Today was test day and I stalled out on bench at 180 and OHP at 100. So you think my weights are heavy enough where i can just continue working with them and make progress? Basically as i lose weight its going to be harder and harder to lift the same weight anyways?

[bigperm0107]

https://www.t-nation.com/training/pr...l-guide-to-gpp
You could also call it "speed work".

As far as your lifts, my technical (aka can just walk in the gym and do it) 1 rep max for squats is 265lbs with a 155lb body weight. So i see no issue with someone squatting 250lbs for reps at 190lbs, even if they do carry another 15-20lbs of fat. So yea i would try to just hold onto your working weights and drop that 50lbs over the next 6 months or so. That would be about the end of the beginner phase, you would be between 190-210lbs around 19%bf, with around a 315 1 rep max on squats, which is what most coaches are shooting for for lifters in the first 12-18 months.

One last thing...so if i installed a GPP program on off lifting days which for me would be Tuesdays and Thursdays i could do a program like this (from the website you linked) and it shouldn't affect my lifts?

Bodyweight squat 3 20-30 45 sec.
A2 Front plank (or variation) 3 30-60 sec. 45 sec.
B1 Hip thrusters 3 15 45 sec.
B2 Push-ups 3 15-20 45 sec.
B3 Step-ups 3 12-15 * 45 sec.
B4 Inverted rows 3 12-15 45 sec.
B5 Unilateral farmer's walk 3 30-40 yards * 45 sec.
* each side

[GentzAU]

If not i have to dig around for an incline with the correct accessories for delt work.

Oh wow.. It seems so obvious now that you've pointed it out, haha. Thanks, mate. I'll throw the lying shoulder press in tomorrow and see how my neck copes. I'm a bit excited though, I've missed shoulder presses!

[nightanole]

Thank you very much. Today was test day and I stalled out on bench at 180 and OHP at 100. So you think my weights are heavy enough where i can just continue working with them and make progress? Basically as i lose weight its going to be harder and harder to lift the same weight anyways?

In a calorie deficit recovery will take longer, but it shouldnt be harder till you get into the lower teens of body fat and stop bulking off your beer gut.

One last thing...so if i installed a GPP program on off lifting days which for me would be Tuesdays and Thursdays i could do a program like this (from the website you linked) and it shouldn't affect my lifts?

Bodyweight squat 3 20-30 45 sec.
A2 Front plank (or variation) 3 30-60 sec. 45 sec.
B1 Hip thrusters 3 15 45 sec.
B2 Push-ups 3 15-20 45 sec.
B3 Step-ups 3 12-15 * 45 sec.
B4 Inverted rows 3 12-15 45 sec.
B5 Unilateral farmer's walk 3 30-40 yards * 45 sec.
* each side

30-60 rep sets. Im pretty sure you cant do alot of those with that rep range. If you get the rep range too low, it stops becoming conditioning work and start robbing recovery from turning into another lifting session.

I normally do burpees and farmers walks, or even weighted backpack walks (not jogs, one foot needs to always be on the ground). or even sled pulls/pushes. Hell ive had highschool students just push cars around the parking lot.

[bigperm0107]

Thank you very much for the information.I really appreciate you taking the time to respond.

[CKinMich]

Next week will wrap up my 2nd cycle of all pro. I'm 5'8 and began all pro weighing 194 pounds. I'm at 173 now and I get 1750 calories 175 protein, 155 carb, 48 fat. I have been extremely disciplined and am very happy with the results so far. It is starting to get tough pushing through the last couple reps and Im curious as to your deload suggestions (when to deload, do a light week or no lifting at all?).

Again big thanks for all you do for everyone with this thread.

[nightanole]

Next week will wrap up my 2nd cycle of all pro. I'm 5'8 and began all pro weighing 194 pounds. I'm at 173 now and I get 1750 calories 175 protein, 155 carb, 48 fat. I have been extremely disciplined and am very happy with the results so far. It is starting to get tough pushing through the last couple reps and Im curious as to your deload suggestions (when to deload, do a light week or no lifting at all?).

Again big thanks for all you do for everyone with this thread.

There is no deload or reset on allpro. Deloads are not for stalls, they are for healing up joints and connecting tissue since they recover at a much slower rate than muscle. The time between medium day and the next heavy is the joint/connecting tissue recovery section of the program.

Now if you fail test day, you just try again next cycle with the same weight. In that case you could consider that a deload since 8 reps is 12-14% easier than 12 reps.

If you are nailing the first set, but severely struggling on the 2nd set, that is normally a diet/recovery issue. Either your macros are out of wack and you are not getting in enough nutrition to refill your muscle glycogen stores, your sleep is off, or you are doing some kind of other activity robbing recovery.

Also your fat is very low. Yes if you know what you are doing you can get your min 10-15g of la and 10-15g of ala from 48g of unsat fat, but ive seen some guys running 50g of fat, and it was mainly just coconut oil (sat fat so zero essential fatties) and what ever was in the veg/grains.

[TonyTuck]

Just nailed everything on the C2 test day and got my first comment about my body by a family member yesterday.. I'm happy :,)

[CKinMich]

There is no deload or reset on allpro. Deloads are not for stalls, they are for healing up joints and connecting tissue since they recover at a much slower rate than muscle. The time between medium day and the next heavy is the joint/connecting tissue recovery section of the program.

Now if you fail test day, you just try again next cycle with the same weight. In that case you could consider that a deload since 8 reps is 12-14% easier than 12 reps.

If you are nailing the first set, but severely struggling on the 2nd set, that is normally a diet/recovery issue. Either your macros are out of wack and you are not getting in enough nutrition to refill your muscle glycogen stores, your sleep is off, or you are doing some kind of other activity robbing recovery.

Also your fat is very low. Yes if you know what you are doing you can get your min 10-15g of la and 10-15g of ala from 48g of unsat fat, but ive seen some guys running 50g of fat, and it was mainly just coconut oil (sat fat so zero essential fatties) and what ever was in the veg/grains.

Gotcha, I think sleep was a big factor, medium day went much better after a good 8 hours of sleep. I upped my fat to 60 and lowered my carbs. Most of my fat comes from some peanut butter in my oats, and whatever meat im taking in that day.

[nightanole]

Gotcha, I think sleep was a big factor, medium day went much better after a good 8 hours of sleep. I upped my fat to 60 and lowered my carbs. Most of my fat comes from some peanut butter in my oats, and whatever meat im taking in that day.

For every 500 cals of peanut butter, you get about 15g of omega 6, so that has you covered. Now you need to find a source to get 10-15g of omega 3, that can easily be had with; canned salmon, omega3 eggs, walnuts on the oats, chia/flax seeds on the oats, etc. Min is 4 grams of omega 3 per day, but then again the min protein is like 50-60g a day.

[5penn]

nightanole,

what's your take on protein shakes/powder?

[nightanole]

nightanole,

what's your take on protein shakes/powder?

I go through 1lb of "myprotein" per month

I generally just use it to flavor oats, and replace some of the flour in recipes. Myprotein also has "powered oats/groats" which can be used to replace flour, and its 15g of protein per 100g, and is 340 cals.

For a quick meal replacement i do 1 340cal serving of powered oats and 2 servings of whey, which works out to be about 600 cals.

[5penn]

thanks, I'll look into them...

[DAJDive]

Question for nightanole. I'm currently in cycle 5, week 2 and I'm finding my lifts are stalling, particularly bench press and overhead press. I'm struggling to get the reps on these two movements. However, BOR and SLDL are still progressing nicely, but feeling heavy. Would it be beneficial to take a couple weeks of deload and then start the cycle again or is it time to move off Allpros onto a different program? My lifts are below (in pounds) and I'm still trying to cut down to 200 lbs. I don't know if auto-regulated is good for me as having that many heavy days might not give this old body enough recovery.

BP - 185
OHP - 135
BOR - 165
SLDL - 225
Squat - 185 (lowered from 275 to regain proper form)

[nightanole]

Question for nightanole. I'm currently in cycle 5, week 2 and I'm finding my lifts are stalling, particularly bench press and overhead press. I'm struggling to get the reps on these two movements. However, BOR and SLDL are still progressing nicely, but feeling heavy. Would it be beneficial to take a couple weeks of deload and then start the cycle again or is it time to move off Allpros onto a different program? My lifts are below (in pounds) and I'm still trying to cut down to 200 lbs. I don't know if auto-regulated is good for me as having that many heavy days might not give this old body enough recovery.

BP - 185
OHP - 135
BOR - 165
SLDL - 225
Squat - 185 (lowered from 275 to regain proper form)

You are within 1 cycle of graduating so things are going to be slooooow . The only 2 things you can do is switch bench to "novice" which is 3 sets of 4-8 reps ( so test day is still 24 reps total) or switch to auto regulated.

I hate to tell yea but the time is drawing near where 10% monthly bumps are a thing of the past. By 18 months in you will be lucky to add 10% to the bar in a year.

[vsthomas2]

First of all, I'm thankful for this program.

I have been going to the gym, but have been extremely inconsistent and my diet has been ****.

However, this program has provided me with some structure. I have now started my 4th week of the first cycle (going everyday at 4:30 AM), and am eager to see results.

My diet has been better, but there have been lapses.

However, I do have some concerns about how my exercises played out in the gym this morning. I don't know if I want to write it off as difficult or if I was mentally unprepared. Today was a bad day in the gym.

This week, the exercises aim for 11 reps. My max squat is 175 lbs, and maybe my form is suspect, but I felt some tension after in my lower back.

Bench press was ok. My max is 115 and I was struggling with the 11th rep of the second set.

However, the most concerning for me are the OH press, SLDL, and BB Row. I'm not satisfied with my form, so maybe I'm looking for a good, reliable video showing proper form.

My BB Row max is 95, but I'm somewhat pushing my back into the bar. Also, I don't know how low I should go to pull the bar up to my chest. OH press is a big challenge for me, because it was the exercise that I struggled with when doing 5x5. My max is 75. I could not even push past 5 reps on the second set. I failed.

On SLDL, I think just being discouraged from the previous exercises, it was a struggle to complete this exercise. I did complete it, but again, I'm not satisfied with my form, out of fear I could pull something or could pass out. My back (I think) is parallel to the ground, but I am still cautious.

I'm curious as to how to address these issues. 11 reps has been taxing and it's only the first cycle! Looking for encouragement, videos on form, and general advice!

Thanks.

[nightanole]

I'm curious as to how to address these issues. 11 reps has been taxing and it's only the first cycle! Looking for encouragement, videos on form, and general advice!

Thanks.

You are going way to close to failure. I would deload all your weights 10% and start over at 9 reps. It really doesnt matter what weight you are using as long as its heavy enough to slow you down vs the bare bar. No point of adding 10% more weight if it just slows the rep down, that means you are still applying the same amount of force.

[briancl2]

I may be reaching the end of Allpro autoregulated. I've been on the auto-regulated program for 6 months, FWIW. I am 6' 168lbs, 35yo.

Squat: 200 @ 8/7
Bench: 160 @ 8/7
BOR: 170 @ 9/8
OHP: 105 @ 11/8
SLDL: 155 @ 11/10
Chinup: 168 @ 11/8 (bodyweight)

For every exercise I've cycled recently (Squat, Bench, and BOR) I am basically tapped out at 8 or 9 reps... i.e., the 10% addition on this cycle was a big jump. As such.. I'm not really progressing much anymore. Also, my recovery needs have gone up.. I used to be able to workout every other day and progress no problem. Now if I do a workout every other day, then I will usually drop reps at least 1 workout per week (e.g., if I my current max for Chinup is 11/8, when working out every other day I can expect one session per week I'll do 11/6). My best workout is always after 2 days rest where I'll occasionally add a rep to an exercise or at least maintain all my maximums.

If I switch to a split, will my recovery issue go away? If I drop to a lower rep program, will I start progressing again, or is this just the rate of progress I can expect regardless of program? I.e., is this the slow progress phase?

[nightanole]

I may be reaching the end of Allpro autoregulated. I've been on the auto-regulated program for 6 months, FWIW. I am 6' 168lbs, 35yo.

Squat: 200 @ 8/7
Bench: 160 @ 8/7
BOR: 170 @ 9/8
OHP: 105 @ 11/8
SLDL: 155 @ 11/10
Chinup: 168 @ 11/8 (bodyweight)

For every exercise I've cycled recently (Squat, Bench, and BOR) I am basically tapped out at 8 or 9 reps... i.e., the 10% addition on this cycle was a big jump. As such.. I'm not really progressing much anymore. Also, my recovery needs have gone up.. I used to be able to workout every other day and progress no problem. Now if I do a workout every other day, then I will usually drop reps at least 1 workout per week (e.g., if I my current max for Chinup is 11/8, when working out every other day I can expect one session per week I'll do 11/6). My best workout is always after 2 days rest where I'll occasionally add a rep to an exercise or at least maintain all my maximums.

If I switch to a split, will my recovery issue go away? If I drop to a lower rep program, will I start progressing again, or is this just the rate of progress I can expect regardless of program? I.e., is this the slow progress phase?

I got bad news bub. Recovery does not increase with strength. You have a fixed amount of volume you can do in a week, regardless of your 1 rep max. its why 5x5 does not work for intermediates, they cant recover from it even if they are not adding weight.

Say you can recover from 2 sets of 200lb squats for 8 reps 3x a week. Even if you could squat 250lbs for 2 sets of 8, you are not going to be able to do it 3x a week. You have a limit of about 10,000lbs of squatting per week. You are going to have to work with that.

So for homework, start thinking about ways to Get in a few sets to almost failure (rpe 8.5-9) every 48-72 hours while staying within your recovery limit and without reducing the working weight.

One of the easier ways i have found is 1 solid set, followed by 2 rest pause sets. So you get 8 reps on the first set(rpe below 8, at least 2 in the tank), rest just long enough to get in 4 reps(rpe 10, no reps in the tank but no form failure), then rest only enough to get in 2 reps (again rpe10). This gets you 3 sets to almost failure, but requires only 14 reps, instead of 2-3 sets of 8.