We are f'cking doomed!!!
According to this article she will remain until she changes her views?
"Today, for the first time in history, an American citizen has been incarcerated for having the belief of conscience that marriage is the union of one man and one woman,” Mr. Gannam said after a hearing that stretched deep into Thursday afternoon. “And she’s been ordered to stay there until she’s willing to change her mind, until she’s willing to change her conscience about what belief is.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/04/us...iage.html?_r=0
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09-04-2015, 11:27 AM #1
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So now you go to prison if you are religious??
On the list for Bannukah
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09-04-2015, 11:35 AM #2
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09-04-2015, 11:41 AM #3
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09-04-2015, 11:47 AM #4
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09-04-2015, 11:59 AM #5
What she is in jail for is civil contempt, basically making a mockery of the judge and the law. Judges are serious about this. Have you ever seen My cousin Vinny? She stood on her principals, which she is allowed to do, however those principals now are not allowed under the new law which the judge was demanding she uphold.
She should have resigned the day the law went into affect if she knew she could not uphold the law and issue licenses to people who are the same sex for marriage.
I do agree though, the whole situation is FUBAR.
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09-04-2015, 12:07 PM #6
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09-04-2015, 12:31 PM #7
She wasn't fired because you can't fire an elected official. It's a long process to remove an elected official. She was requested by the Governor and refused. She was requested by the Attorney General and refused. She was ordered by multiple levels of US Federal judges and refused and rejected the US Supreme Court. Thus she is paying the consequences. She can do her job, quit, or go to jail.
Her attempt at hijacking the law to meet her religious "standard" is ridiculous. If this were a Muslim claiming her Sharia law prevents gay couples from marrying and Christian heads would explode. This has been attempted before when interracial marriage was illegal. Thankfully, the US Supreme court found it illegal, thus forcing clerks and judges to abide by the law.
The phrase "One nation under God" wasn't injected into the Pledge of Allegiance until the 1950's. Same for "In God We Trust". Done during the McCarthy era of the red scare, it's never been a part of US history until then. And one can argue, that since putting those phrases within such commonly used public phrases and on the money, the US has had more death, war, civil disturbances, and civil problems since the civil war.
Putting your religion above the law is your right, but in no way in accordance with the American justice system. Have your religion, for sure, go to town, do what you want. But you will not force your religion and view on others. That is the antithesis of "freedom" and akin to the institution of sharia law.
Interesting though is that she's been married, what, 3 times and cheated on two husbands, having children fathered by a man not her husband yet is claiming how she is "for God". Wouldn't God's law in the bible have her stoned? Isn't that what it says about adulterers?
Another county clerk in Texas has the same objections as Kim. She wrote this: “Due to the latest Supreme Court decision which is contrary to my personal beliefs, I cannot uphold the oath which I made when I took office." She stepped down.
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09-04-2015, 12:31 PM #8
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09-04-2015, 12:45 PM #9
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09-04-2015, 01:11 PM #10
She isn't a government employee, she's an elected official that took an oath when she took her position. She refused to honor her oath even after she was ordered several times to do so. She could have resigned her position and everything would have been just fine but no, she decided otherwise. If you take an oath in court to tell the truth and you don't, you don't get fired, you... ready for this... go to jail. That anyone would try to spin it as somebody going to jail for her religion is dumb as phuk.
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09-04-2015, 01:13 PM #11
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09-04-2015, 01:13 PM #12
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09-04-2015, 01:31 PM #13
They aren't forcing her to change her views. They're forcing her to do her job, which I'm sure included an oath to do such things, regardless of her beliefs. She can continue not to believe in gay marriage all she wants; but she's still got to issue licenses for them.
I was in the Navy. Regardless of what I believed, my job was to kill the enemy. If I refused based on my beliefs, you bet your ass I'd have gone to prison.
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09-04-2015, 01:40 PM #14
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09-04-2015, 01:50 PM #15
Agreed. If she can't in good conscience comply, then she should resign her position. I think she could issue the certificates without violating her beliefs as giving the certificate is not equivalent to a personal endorsement.
That said, I do think jail is a bit of an overreaction. I think if she were a Muslim refusing to give out marriage certificates for the same reason, both the legal system and the media would be treating the matter quite differently.It takes a big man to cry, but it takes a bigger man to laugh at that man.
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09-04-2015, 01:50 PM #16
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09-04-2015, 01:50 PM #17
If she had owned the business, then she would have had more of a right to refuse business. Since she is/was an employee, elected or otherwise, she did/does not have the right to make up rules even if she does not agree with them.
If she did not agree, she should have resigned or be terminated. It is simple insubordination. Should not be a religious fight.Helping one person may not change the world, but it could change the world for one person.
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09-04-2015, 01:53 PM #18
I dont' disagree with you, but I wonder what can of worms this may open.
Could you as a ______ be forced by law to do something that is against your _______? or more specifically for this case: Could you as a _____ be forced to do something by a law of the land that is second to the covenants of your faith?
If we are truly a nation of freedom of religion they how can she be prosecuted for exercising that freedom? The job does not separate her from her religion, just as being a worker at Mary Kay cosmetics not separate me from being a male. Sure I can change my religion at any time, but now in society so too can I change my sex. So the basis of the persons identification with something beyond their physical appearance which is all the rage now, here, is not being respected because it goes against the grain.
While her point of view has enough holes in it to make it a sieve, it IS holding some water for a bit.
Years ago local butchers would solve an issue like this by having 2 separate slicers, one that did regular meat and the other that did halal/kosher meat. If the guy who did one was out then someone else stepped in to do the job through delegation.
The system here is actually failing her in this regard because it did not delegate the same authority to someone else who would have no qualms doing what their peer could or would not. It's an odd situation which may see some change forthcoming regarding objections to the duties of a job due to religious observances. Surely as accommodate meatless Fridays in the cafeteria for some and prayer rooms for some others, we figure out some way to resolve this issue with common sense.Last edited by Clinos; 09-04-2015 at 02:02 PM.
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Unlawful possession of a raccoon
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09-04-2015, 01:57 PM #19
He should have been arrested, as it was in direct violation of Prop 22 that was a law at that time and was not banished until 2008, 4 years after he was doing this. Though I imagine most of the people praising him were on one side of the law, though to be honest I don't remember much about all of it.
This is media driven, but it does not change the fact that "the people" have put their representatives in place to push for the change in the law, and like it or not, it is here to stay.
I blame cable television and the internet, people have way to many things to keep their minds sedated and not paying attention to what is happening. This has been going on for long time as well. Americans have the attention span of a gnat, add in all the additional distractions and out right media bias going both ways, and it no wonder that no one can keep up with what is going on. Add to that the government likes to release information during other large stories in the news. Pay attention to the small tickers while some of these "controversial" stories that are dropping right now.
"Women being arrested for her stance on gay marriage, and in other news, USA is selling nukes to Iran, back to the court room and the sentencing on some lady and her religious beliefs." Swept under the rug.
Hypothetical yes, but it happens all the time.
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09-04-2015, 02:01 PM #20
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Demagoguery: is an appeal to people that plays on their emotions and prejudices rather than on their rational side.
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09-04-2015, 02:23 PM #21
She's not being prosecuted for her execution of religious freedom. She being held in contempt of court for ignoring the lawful order of multiple judges to follow the law of the land. She chose to bring her religion to her job.
The system didn't fail, she didn't allow it to work. She had to resign in order for another county clerk to be appointed. She refused. She caused this problem and is solely responsible for it.
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09-04-2015, 02:38 PM #22
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09-04-2015, 02:44 PM #23
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09-04-2015, 03:03 PM #24
I don't see it as a can of worms. I think people are free to hold a position or a job. Nobody forces them to be there. If the job or position requires activities that go against the person's beliefs, that person should not apply for that position. Now, I understand that at the time she run for that position gay marriages were not legal, but now they are, so she can
a) Resign because the new rules are incompatible with her beliefs. That would be the honorable thing to do, as I am sure even Christians believe if you get paid to do something you should do it, and if you took an oath you should honor it. She steps down, she doesn't have to marry gay people, everybody lives happily ever after.
b) Issue the licenses even if she doesn't believe in gay marriage. She can find some rationalization for that, like the belief that only marriage in a church is real marriage, or that they are married in the eye of the State but not in the eye of God, or whatever.
c) Do what she did, and suffer the consequences.
Of course another course of action may have been to fine her for every day she doesn't issue licenses, and increase the fine every day until either she goes broke or she steps down or she starts doing her job. But I don't know the law, maybe that's not an option in that situation, who knows?
There's no good reason for anyone to insist in taking a job or a position and then refuse to do what that job requires because of religious reasons. None. Do your job or find another job.Follow my 2018 competition prep here:
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09-04-2015, 03:24 PM #25
I think she wanted to get sent to prison, for 2 reasons:
1) she will now become a cause celeb. People will flock to her and she will gain greater prestige and influence among people of similar views than she could ever achieve otherwise. She gets to play the martyr.
2) she hopes to open another avenue of legal challenge to the thing that she objects to
I'm assuming that she is in a minimum security federal facility surrounded by white collar criminals; not exactly nice, but the nicest prison you could get put in.Screw nature; my body will do what I DAMN WELL tell it to do!
The only dangerous thing about an exercise is the person doing it.
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09-04-2015, 03:27 PM #26
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09-04-2015, 03:51 PM #27
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09-04-2015, 03:52 PM #28
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09-04-2015, 03:59 PM #29
Although not directly addressing the case involving Kim Davis, US Supreme Court Justice Scalia did address a similar situation:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...ind-a-new-job/
“[I]n my view the choice for the judge who believes the death penalty to be immoral is resignation, rather than simply ignoring duly enacted, constitutional laws and sabotaging death penalty cases. He has, after all, taken an oath to apply the laws and has been given no power to supplant them with rules of his own. Of course if he feels strongly enough he can go beyond mere resignation and lead a political campaign to abolish the death penalty” and if that fails, lead a revolution. But rewrite the laws he cannot do.”
Think of it this way. Someone who objects to war due to his religious conscience has a right to be a conscientious objector and not serve in the military, even were there to be a draft. But he does not have the right to serve as a military officer, draw a paycheck from the military and then substitute his own personal views of when war is justified for that of the government. The same applies here.
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09-04-2015, 04:04 PM #30
This statement is ignorant. The world was far more dangerous when God was at his peak. The world now is actually the safest its ever been. The most religious places in the world are Africa and the Middle East. They don't seem evil less too me. China with 90% non believers, Sweden with 78% non believers Canada, Hong Kong, Netherlands etc... are the safest Countries in the world with the most non believers. Even Israel has over 60% non believers. The US which has the most believers out of the wealthiest Countries seems to have most of the wacko's.
Notice the Countries with the most believers also have the lowest education. US is doing a poor job at educating its people and the gap between the rich and poor (fame and material possession obsessiveness) is what's causing America's 'evil'. It has nothing to do with God.
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