Is lifting "heavy" the best way to progres? A continuation of training based topics

[bigtallox]

So are you still going to compete in strongman events?

I'll probably compete in Utah's Strongest Man this fall. In the masters division of course. I'll be 50 in a couple months, weights at nationals usually get considerably lighter in the 50+ division, so yeah maybe. I'd like to.

[JerryB]

I'll probably compete in Utah's Strongest Man this fall. In the masters division of course. I'll be 50 in a couple months, weights at nationals usually get considerably lighter in the 50+ division, so yeah maybe. I'd like to.

Good luck if you do.

[JerryB]

^^ I think you completely misread what he was saying. He wasn't being judgemental, condescending, or dismissive of another's goals. Not sure where you got that. He was just saying that the value of training heavy may be different depending on one's goals.

I don't misread his comment. He has made previous comments such as attempting to heavy weight is more motivating. In the future I will follow my rule:
When someone makes a comment consider the source.

[EjnarKolinkar]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24714538

http://www.lookgreatnaked.com/blog/b...th-and-muscle/

Effects of different volume-equated resistance training loading strategies on muscular adaptations in well-trained men.




http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23955603

http://www.lookgreatnaked.com/articl...daptations.pdf

Is there a minimum intensity threshold for resistance training-induced hypertrophic adaptations?


These seem relevant to the topic.

I think it's clear in anecdotal accounts and in studies that if one wants to perform well with 1RM lifts, one needs to practice high % lifts on some regular rotation.

As for hypertrophy, above study suggests it's moot given a sensible program, tonnage, % of max appropriate for the volume at hand in terms of "heavy" vs "HEAVY." BUt I think you have to be cautious with "Light " weights, see second links.

[so-tex]

I have always made better gains using 8-12 reps. I do not consider 12 to be high reps, nor 8 reps to be low reps. I guess I do "medium" reps. With my now inoperable RC tear, I am forced to do grossly light weights for chest movements. I suspect my growth in that region will be limited from now on. Not much else I can do. still doing 8-12 reps.

same here, but I occasionally do low reps, 3-4 and then switch back up to the 7-10 range.
I will mix up drop sets and training to failure on occasion.
I'm not sure if I know what the fuk I am doing, but as long as I'm throwing the iron around, I'm happy.

[Mojoke]

Supposedly the latest powerlifting advocates 50-75 1rm taken to half volume, done daily. Forget who but they point to some really strong natural lifters. I'm on week 2 of same workout every day and what I could only bench 2 of when I started is 2 easy sets of 5. It's called Swedish frequency training. It appears legit and has a study on it, done on advanced lifters. Anyway, food for thought.

So I take it you're training full body on a daily basis now? How do you like your progress so far?

[bodyhard]

IMO to get the best out of your workout and last a long time doing it, it is best to include, heavy, medium and light routines in your schedule.

I don't think (at least in my opinion) you can get that "mature mass" without lifting heavy, it is the foundation of gaining size, but when I say heavy I mean heavy but with reps of 6-8, not so heavy where you are doing singles to 3 reps.

Also for natural lifters this is the best way. Anyone "on" can stay heavy for lengths of time and can also lift light and see results, but for those who are not on they will need to do both, heavy and light to get the best out of this.

[x-trainer ben]

ID describe what you use to help with your recovery, joint products, chiro, ect?

[mcbourque]

Top post in female bodybuilding section is about higher rep ranges being best for women.

Anything in these studies that mention a difference for men and women?

I'm surprised about the top post saying that. I thought a lot of ladies in the female section were powerlifters. I saw some pretty serious stats (like yours).

Does this post tie the rep range recommendation for female to a specific goal (specific esthetics/looks, specific sport, powerlifting stats, etc) and length of training? Because really, much beyond gender, programs and rep range should be tied to what you want to accomplish and where you are coming from. (i.e. I'm stuck at 20 reps for my hip rehab when my heart really wants to squats heavy 4-5 reps )

No one magic bullet. I'm sad to see that the whole "pink dumbbells for woman" myth still exists here.

I do remember someone bringing up a "study" about women needing to go lighter last year but it was quickly debunked as bad science (correlation not causation, very small sample range of very specific population).

What I have learned is basically what BH is saying, mix it up.

[induced_drag]

ID describe what you use to help with your recovery, joint products, chiro, ect?

Less work....more rest. I have used chiro to help with rehabbing injuries, but never used it for "recovery". I dont take any "joint support", but I do supplement fish oil @ 6g/day. That is supposed to have good anti inflammatory benefits (among other things)

I also take "XXXX" but we are not allowed to say that. But truth be told, I never saw a huge change in my recovery abilities. I have reached the limits of my recovery with as little as one working set a week on deads. (when I was doing one set a week with 585 to see how many reps I could get...when I got to 585x7, my body had had enough and I had to take a few weeks off).

I am a big believer in not killing myself in the gym. Sure I workout hard, but I never puke my guts out. Maybe I am doing it wrong . The intensity of exerting max effort for 4-8 reps is a lot different than doing it for 20. That goes back to the study finding about perceived exertion levels.

Heck, 5/3/1 I almost felt like I was loafing it in the gym....yet at 4 months it hit me like a wall and I had to back off.

So as to your original question, I have gotten to the point where I can feel where I am at and what my body can take. There is a big difference between chronic lack of recovery and just missing a nights rest. I have learned when to push through....and when to back off. (although I do not always have the self discipline to listen to my inner voice.) That is when I end up injuring myself. Thankfully, I have not done anything stupid in a few years and I am learning that taking a light day is not the end of the world.

[x-trainer ben]

Less work....more rest. I have used chiro to help with rehabbing injuries, but never used it for "recovery". I dont take any "joint support", but I do supplement fish oil @ 6g/day. That is supposed to have good anti inflammatory benefits (among other things)

I also take "XXXX" but we are not allowed to say that. But truth be told, I never saw a huge change in my recovery abilities. I have reached the limits of my recovery with as little as one working set a week on deads. (when I was doing one set a week with 585 to see how many reps I could get...when I got to 585x7, my body had had enough and I had to take a few weeks off).

I am a big believer in not killing myself in the gym. Sure I workout hard, but I never puke my guts out. Maybe I am doing it wrong . The intensity of exerting max effort for 4-8 reps is a lot different than doing it for 20. That goes back to the study finding about perceived exertion levels.

Heck, 5/3/1 I almost felt like I was loafing it in the gym....yet at 4 months it hit me like a wall and I had to back off.

So as to your original question, I have gotten to the point where I can feel where I am at and what my body can take. There is a big difference between chronic lack of recovery and just missing a nights rest. I have learned when to push through....and when to back off. (although I do not always have the self discipline to listen to my inner voice.) That is when I end up injuring myself. Thankfully, I have not done anything stupid in a few years and I am learning that taking a light day is not the end of the world.

Thanks, I have heard of 6grams for fat burning as well as squashing inflammation.

[Tmax55]

Teaching people the principles of progression and that there should always be a struggle to add more weight using good form. (not really always but for a looong time..more later). I have seen guys who never in their lives hit 225 and three months on a program I write up for them, they are repping 3 reps! These are guys who have been going to the gym for years! Another guy could not do a single pullup. Now...his is doing 8. All guys convinced they could not progress.

Its slightly off topic, but I am looking for a way to improve my weighted pull-ups...I've been stuck on 160 for a 1 rep max for a while (maybe because I am bulking and I have to lift my BW?), and even though I progress in rep numbers at 95 pounds it doesn't seem to help. Any thoughts you can give me?

And yes I agree you have to lift heavy to progress. I don't do more than 12 reps unless its an iso leg movement like extensions I throw in at the end of my workout for the heck of it.

[NorwichGrad]

ID. Much respect to you for being honest with quadruple X.

[jdtemple]

There is a big difference between chronic lack of recovery and just missing a nights rest. I have learned when to push through....and when to back off. (although I do not always have the self discipline to listen to my inner voice.) That is when I end up injuring myself.

I have this problem. I push and push and end up where I am right now, forced to take time off due to injuries that just aren't going away. I just finished a week completely off, and I'm still sore like I've been training most of the week, along with some tendon/ligament/joint pain that has been pretty persistent for a while. I know we all hate this word, but I think there has been some overtraining going on. I'm going to spend at least another week off with a higher intake and see where it goes from there. I'm going to give Wendler 5/3/1 a whirl when I come back.

[induced_drag]

Its slightly off topic, but I am looking for a way to improve my weighted pull-ups...I've been stuck on 160 for a 1 rep max for a while (maybe because I am bulking and I have to lift my BW?), and even though I progress in rep numbers at 95 pounds it doesn't seem to help. Any thoughts you can give me?

And yes I agree you have to lift heavy to progress. I don't do more than 12 reps unless its an iso leg movement like extensions I throw in at the end of my workout for the heck of it.

On most exercises, I try to improve my 3-5 rep working weights and it always resulted in me improving my 1rm. I would be careful though.... I stopped doing heavy weighted pull ups as they were hell on tendentious for me. Made my elbows and especially biceps scream.

ID. Much respect to you for being honest with quadruple X.

Yea....not going into too much detail, I would guess the 'magic' happens at higher levels of supplementation. These guys that say they can workout 5-6 days a week...etc. I have never seen this. Just getting back to normalized levels, I think improved a lot for me, but recovery is not one I remember. I have "dabbled" with more but very conservatively. I guess most "vets" would say I was still on training wheels rather then full riding the bike like the "big boys". As of right now, I dont have any plans to go "there" as I have accomplished most of my training goals without having too. I dont want to be reliant on riding a bike to keep my physique. I am not 25 any more, and my goals of general health and being around long term over rule the notion of getting HOOOGUE.

In keeping with the full disclosure, I have put on 5-7 lbs in the last 2 years. I am not sure I would have been able to do that on my own...(although I had only been back 3 years and I doubt I was at my peak). I do doubt I could ever have get much bigger than I am now. I do believe I would be just as strong though. Which in a way sucks...as I could have done very well competing in TRUE drug free lifting. But getting my life back normal is worth more to me than trophies and plaques. I do kinda wonder what I could do strength wise if I really did what the big guys do. But again......it is just not worth it for me at this point in my life.

Thanks for the kind words.

[Tmax55]

Thanks ID, I think that may be it...I've improved my rep numbers from 4-5 to 6-7 at 90/95 but haven't added any weight. Maybe I just need to work with 100/105.

I experience no tendinitis on weighted pull ups, but Dips and any heavy benching activity seem to cause it, so I've stopped benching heavy and gone to DB bench, which for some reason doesn't.

[jdtemple]

But getting my life back normal is worth more to me than trophies and plaques.

For sure man, 100%.

[JerryB]

Less work....more rest. I have used chiro to help with rehabbing injuries, but never used it for "recovery". I dont take any "joint support", but I do supplement fish oil @ 6g/day. That is supposed to have good anti inflammatory benefits (among other things)

I also take "XXXX" but we are not allowed to say that. But truth be told, I never saw a huge change in my recovery abilities. I have reached the limits of my recovery with as little as one working set a week on deads. (when I was doing one set a week with 585 to see how many reps I could get...when I got to 585x7, my body had had enough and I had to take a few weeks off).

I am a big believer in not killing myself in the gym. Sure I workout hard, but I never puke my guts out. Maybe I am doing it wrong . The intensity of exerting max effort for 4-8 reps is a lot different than doing it for 20. That goes back to the study finding about perceived exertion levels.

Heck, 5/3/1 I almost felt like I was loafing it in the gym....yet at 4 months it hit me like a wall and I had to back off.

So as to your original question, I have gotten to the point where I can feel where I am at and what my body can take. There is a big difference between chronic lack of recovery and just missing a nights rest. I have learned when to push through....and when to back off. (although I do not always have the self discipline to listen to my inner voice.) That is when I end up injuring myself. Thankfully, I have not done anything stupid in a few years and I am learning that taking a light day is not the end of the world.

The perceived exertion is an enlightening part of the study. Even we physique guys know you need to train heavy for bigger muscles. The high reps and drop sets are necessary for cute muscles, that can be painful and a test for it tolerance. Your training is more taxing on the body and it appears you are making the adjustments.

[x-trainer ben]

Typing from mobile phone but go to 6:45 and we can discuss more, later.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=s2UliwvEB1M

[x-trainer ben]

more food for thought
http://www.ergo-log.com/muscle-growt...-training.html

[DuracellBunny]

more food for thought
http://www.ergo-log.com/muscle-growt...-training.html

"The researchers got ten well-trained men to train their legs on two different occasions by doing squats, leg presses, leg extensions, leg curs and calf raises. "

They gave 10 men 1 session each of the 2 methods. Are you having a fking laugh? These people call themselves researchers? They should be ashamed of themselves.

[Jbizzlechizzle]

more food for thought
http://www.ergo-log.com/muscle-growt...-training.html

Nothing conclusive or definitive there but a nice study on a very small sample size. I believe that in the beginning of a lifter's career the heavy stuff is probably more important. After you've built the base of muscle with heavy compounds, is likely to be much easier to maintain or make smaller incremental strength and size gains working in the higher rep ranges. This is only a not so educated guess, but it makes sense in my head.

[EjnarKolinkar]

Nothing conclusive or definitive there but a nice study on a very small sample size. I believe that in the beginning of a lifter's career the heavy stuff is probably more important. After you've built the base of muscle with heavy compounds, is likely to be much easier to maintain or make smaller incremental strength and size gains working in the higher rep ranges. This is only a not so educated guess, but it makes sense in my head.

Its interesting to just look at the biggest natties and what they did and do.

While many may work in 3x15, 5x9, 4x10 rep ranges at a 10RM+/-, you have to look at the loads they are shifting.

The repetition method builds size end of story. But folks want to train like an advanced lifter too soon too often.

Thing is is natties only have so much recovery, and what a lifter blows on fluff, well you cant un fluff the fluff. Too much volume, with too little load, too soon, just saps recovery and is about like doing Zumba.

Of course we all want to pattern out training after the most advanced, most durable, genetic freak out there and wonder why we dont get results. Im using the term we in the global sense though. Nothing about you JB.

[Jbizzlechizzle]

Its interesting to just look at the biggest natties and what they did and do.

While many may work in 3x15, 5x9, 4x10 rep ranges at a 10RM+/-, you have to look at the loads they are shifting.

The repetition method builds size end of story. But folks want to train like an advanced lifter too soon too often.

Thing is is natties only have so much recovery, and what a lifter blows on fluff, well you cant un fluff the fluff. Too much volume, with too little load, too soon, just saps recovery and is about like doing Zumba.

Of course we all want to pattern out training after the most advanced, most durable, genetic freak out there and wonder why we dont get results. Im using the term we in the global sense though. Nothing about you JB.

This is why it's important for people to experiment and figure out what works on an individual level. I am a believer in volume and time under tension while lifting as heavy as possible in all of the rep ranges. Once a lifter starts understanding and listening to his/her own body and trains/eats consistently and with purpose, that's when the magic happens. I don't believe there is a cookie cutter or one size fits all training solution for everyone.

[x-trainer ben]

"The researchers got ten well-trained men to train their legs on two different occasions by doing squats, leg presses, leg extensions, leg curs and calf raises. "

They gave 10 men 1 session each of the 2 methods. Are you having a fking laugh? These people call themselves researchers? They should be ashamed of themselves.

Yes and no to the laugh part because we have recently learned that half of all research has faked results, and n=10 is low. I just enjoy reading the back and forth on this never ever ending topic.

[EjnarKolinkar]

Its cookie cutter, ID is right.

There simply arent any big weak natties. Volume work does not promote strength as well. Natties only have so much to give. Game over.

Now that i beat the obvious into the ground. People should train as they see fit, enjoy the process etc.

I agree with you 100% for folks that already have massive strength. Oddly most if them keep right on with significant low volume in their programs, (and add volume work) because their work capacity has grown so much.

Although there are those that use exclusively higher volume work, but look at their tonnage.

[x-trainer ben]

Nothing conclusive or definitive there but a nice study on a very small sample size. I believe that in the beginning of a lifter's career the heavy stuff is probably more important. After you've built the base of muscle with heavy compounds, is likely to be much easier to maintain or make smaller incremental strength and size gains working in the higher rep ranges. This is only a not so educated guess, but it makes sense in my head.

Makes sense to Dexter and me :-)

[drudixon]

So I take it you're training full body on a daily basis now? How do you like your progress so far?

So far I've done the same routine 27 out of 30 days at varying intensities.

The good news is I've added major rom to all lifts and my rpe is way easier. Things that were tough are now dynamic lifts. I have a lite week this week then a 1rm test. My guess is my bench is up 20, squats up 20, weighted pullups up 30, and military (true military press) up 10. I actually lost a few pounds at constant 3200 calories, but I feel bigger.

The only bad news is my left forearm / elbow hurt like hell from the weighted pullups .

The weights I will try to hit are

Bench 235, rows 235, pullups 80, military 135, squat 335. None are PR's, but pretty close. Considering all I've done is hypertrophy for the past 2 years due to shoulder, I'll take it.

[Mojoke]

So far I've done the same routine 27 out of 30 days at varying intensities.

The good news is I've added major rom to all lifts and my rpe is way easier. Things that were tough are now dynamic lifts. I have a lite week this week then a 1rm test. My guess is my bench is up 20, squats up 20, weighted pullups up 30, and military (true military press) up 10. I actually lost a few pounds at constant 3200 calories, but I feel bigger.

The only bad news is my left forearm / elbow hurt like hell from the weighted pullups .

The weights I will try to hit are

Bench 235, rows 235, pullups 80, military 135, squat 335. None are PR's, but pretty close. Considering all I've done is hypertrophy for the past 2 years due to shoulder, I'll take it.

Sounds like you made some good progress. Maybe rotate Some more between exercises to avoid overuse injuries.

For the injuries you have, trigger point therapy and tennis ball rolling work great for me

[drudixon]

Sounds like you made some good progress. Maybe rotate Some more between exercises to avoid overuse injuries.

For the injuries you have, trigger point therapy and tennis ball rolling work great for me

All my lifts except squats went up dramatically.
Posted in the rep set thread.

Rows 265
Bench 245
Pullups 90
Military 135
Squats meh