Progressive overload - seems simple, conceptually. But not grasping how to execute.

[Jonrik]

Yes, I'm sorry... another thread about progressive overload. AND this is my first post. But don't hate me. The thing is, as much time as I've spent with my face in the computer, this hasn't been answered in my opinion. At least not in a straightforward way. The question is how to use progressive overload/measure progress without going to failure?

To elaborate, I love reading about bodybuilding. And lately, as in for about a month, I've been on a progressive overload vs going to failure article kick. For me it's a little puzzling why these two are even directly compared. I mean, progressive overload is a basic principal of bodybuilding, where as going to failure is just one of many tools used in weight lifting. However, when talking about both concepts, no article or thread seems to fully address exactly how you are supposed to measure progress without reaching failure. In fact, most articles seem to go something like this -

"Hey, not making gains? Not moving up in weight? Have you reached a plateau?? Well, try this awesome new thing called progressive overload - it's where you make gains and move up in weight."

It's like, wow thanks? It's such an obvious concept I would think every person practicing bodybuilding would understand. Bigger Stronger Faster. But these articles usually say the same thing - they go into slight detail on ways to progress - such as moving up in weight, in reps, in total volume, even shorter rest periods, etc. But after that things get a little confusing.

Some articles will say that it comes as no surprise that people who do the same routine over and over stay where they are and make no gains, some preach almost never going to failure, and other say something like this progressive overload article - quote "Lift a weight that is heavy enough that you fail between 6 – 8 reps, when you reach failure, you should be pushing for ‘one more rep’!"

I mean I know there is conflicting info in bodybuilding but come on! This is so confusing. So basically a rare few say push yourself and try to go to failure and get that last rep (which makes sense to me, but apparently this isnt good for your cns over time) while others say don't go to failure and just move up in weight, which makes a little less sense to me. These people then further confuse me by saying that if you do the same routine without pushing yourself or moving up in weight that you wont progress. Well wait, if you keep doing a certain workout over and over without going to failure, wont this become easy after a while? Isn't this part of progressive overload? Or is it just not challenging enough after a while? If this is the case, how do I actually push my body hard enough to elicit a response, to force change, without going to failure? And how do I know where I am at and measure if I am moving up in weight or reps without going to failure? Am I supposed to stop just shy of failure and hope that this keep happening but with higher reps or more weight?

If you read all this, thanks. I know I am asking something that honestly has to do with just knowing your own body but I want to hear peoples thoughts on this. And yes, I know there isnt a way of lifting everyone is "supposed" to do because peoples bodies are different, but the whole point of these discussions is to hear others opinions and then measure yourself with that in mind. Basically I'm hoping I don't get any "it depends on you bro" and instead get peoples personal experiences and what they do.

Thanks guys

[JohnMariettePT]

If i follow your question correctly (maybe misunderstood), but i usually stop a rep short of failure so for example im doing Jim Wendler's 5/3/1. This month lets say i lifted 100x5. Next month 100x7(both with a rep in the tank).So i know i progressed. Just personally i know if i fail on a lift i think about it next time.

[rdferguson]

Yes, I'm sorry... another thread about progressive overload. AND this is my first post. But don't hate me. The thing is, as much time as I've spent with my face in the computer, this hasn't been answered in my opinion. At least not in a straightforward way. The question is how to use progressive overload/measure progress without going to failure?

To elaborate, I love reading about bodybuilding. And lately, as in for about a month, I've been on a progressive overload vs going to failure article kick. For me it's a little puzzling why these two are even directly compared. I mean, progressive overload is a basic principal of bodybuilding, where as going to failure is just one of many tools used in weight lifting. However, when talking about both concepts, no article or thread seems to fully address exactly how you are supposed to measure progress without reaching failure. In fact, most articles seem to go something like this -

"Hey, not making gains? Not moving up in weight? Have you reached a plateau?? Well, try this awesome new thing called progressive overload - it's where you make gains and move up in weight."

It's like, wow thanks? It's such an obvious concept I would think every person practicing bodybuilding would understand. Bigger Stronger Faster. But these articles usually say the same thing - they go into slight detail on ways to progress - such as moving up in weight, in reps, in total volume, even shorter rest periods, etc. But after that things get a little confusing.

Some articles will say that it comes as no surprise that people who do the same routine over and over stay where they are and make no gains, some preach almost never going to failure, and other say something like this progressive overload article - quote "Lift a weight that is heavy enough that you fail between 6 – 8 reps, when you reach failure, you should be pushing for ‘one more rep’!"

I mean I know there is conflicting info in bodybuilding but come on! This is so confusing. So basically a rare few say push yourself and try to go to failure and get that last rep (which makes sense to me, but apparently this isnt good for your cns over time) while others say don't go to failure and just move up in weight, which makes a little less sense to me. These people then further confuse me by saying that if you do the same routine without pushing yourself or moving up in weight that you wont progress. Well wait, if you keep doing a certain workout over and over without going to failure, wont this become easy after a while? Isn't this part of progressive overload? Or is it just not challenging enough after a while? If this is the case, how do I actually push my body hard enough to elicit a response, to force change, without going to failure? And how do I know where I am at and measure if I am moving up in weight or reps without going to failure? Am I supposed to stop just shy of failure and hope that this keep happening but with higher reps or more weight?

If you read all this, thanks. I know I am asking something that honestly has to do with just knowing your own body but I want to hear peoples thoughts on this. And yes, I know there isnt a way of lifting everyone is "supposed" to do because peoples bodies are different, but the whole point of these discussions is to hear others opinions and then measure yourself with that in mind. Basically I'm hoping I don't get any "it depends on you bro" and instead get peoples personal experiences and what they do.

Thanks guys

Jonrik, you are by far the smartest new poster I have ever seen on these forums. I'm dead serious. You've just raised all the right questions and in doing so have shown how bad some of the prevailing wisdom is in justifying or even explaining what should be basic concepts.

I think you really hit the nail on the head here:

"Hey, not making gains? Not moving up in weight? Have you reached a plateau?? Well, try this awesome new thing called progressive overload - it's where you make gains and move up in weight."

It's like, wow thanks? It's such an obvious concept I would think every person practicing bodybuilding would understand.

"Progressive overload" is just a description of the various ways you can increase training output overtime. All programs that intend on making you better should have some form of progressive overload present in them. How that's organised will vary, but the basic principle of doing more over time should be there.

Failure is neither good nor bad, but it certainly is a useful measuring stick. It can be used to drive overload, but isn't necessary. I think a lot of the people online make too big a deal out of how draining it can be and probably need to practice 3x8 of hardenthefckup -- although there are personal factors to consider there.

In practical terms, All Pro's simple beginner's routine has a helpful layout for practicing progressive overload. You start with 75% 1RM, which you should be able to achieve for 10 reps, failing if you go for an 11th rep (give or take -- individual strength endurance, stamina, technique and mental fortitude all play a role here). In the first week of the program you only do 2x8 at what should be your 10RM, but each week you add another rep. In the final week of the training cycle you should be getting 12 reps at your old 10RM. If you do, increase the weight by 10%, rinse and repeat.

Something people tend to get a bit backwards about progressive overload is how progress is driven. Progressive overload doesn't drive results so much as it is the product of training results. Having had a successful previous workout/week/cycle (depending on how much it takes to make observable improvements happen), having recovered from it appropriately and training again before you decondition allows progressive overload. Good programming aims to capture the opportune moment to take advantage of the gains that have just been made, and in the context of those gains push the body further.

[coachcalande]

Yes, I'm sorry... another thread about progressive overload. AND this is my first post. But don't hate me. The thing is, as much time as I've spent with my face in the computer, this hasn't been answered in my opinion. At least not in a straightforward way. The question is how to use progressive overload/measure progress without going to failure?

To elaborate, I love reading about bodybuilding. And lately, as in for about a month, I've been on a progressive overload vs going to failure article kick. For me it's a little puzzling why these two are even directly compared. I mean, progressive overload is a basic principal of bodybuilding, where as going to failure is just one of many tools used in weight lifting. However, when talking about both concepts, no article or thread seems to fully address exactly how you are supposed to measure progress without reaching failure. In fact, most articles seem to go something like this -

"Hey, not making gains? Not moving up in weight? Have you reached a plateau?? Well, try this awesome new thing called progressive overload - it's where you make gains and move up in weight."

It's like, wow thanks? It's such an obvious concept I would think every person practicing bodybuilding would understand. Bigger Stronger Faster. But these articles usually say the same thing - they go into slight detail on ways to progress - such as moving up in weight, in reps, in total volume, even shorter rest periods, etc. But after that things get a little confusing.

Some articles will say that it comes as no surprise that people who do the same routine over and over stay where they are and make no gains, some preach almost never going to failure, and other say something like this progressive overload article - quote "Lift a weight that is heavy enough that you fail between 6 – 8 reps, when you reach failure, you should be pushing for ‘one more rep’!"

I mean I know there is conflicting info in bodybuilding but come on! This is so confusing. So basically a rare few say push yourself and try to go to failure and get that last rep (which makes sense to me, but apparently this isnt good for your cns over time) while others say don't go to failure and just move up in weight, which makes a little less sense to me. These people then further confuse me by saying that if you do the same routine without pushing yourself or moving up in weight that you wont progress. Well wait, if you keep doing a certain workout over and over without going to failure, wont this become easy after a while? Isn't this part of progressive overload? Or is it just not challenging enough after a while? If this is the case, how do I actually push my body hard enough to elicit a response, to force change, without going to failure? And how do I know where I am at and measure if I am moving up in weight or reps without going to failure? Am I supposed to stop just shy of failure and hope that this keep happening but with higher reps or more weight?

If you read all this, thanks. I know I am asking something that honestly has to do with just knowing your own body but I want to hear peoples thoughts on this. And yes, I know there isnt a way of lifting everyone is "supposed" to do because peoples bodies are different, but the whole point of these discussions is to hear others opinions and then measure yourself with that in mind. Basically I'm hoping I don't get any "it depends on you bro" and instead get peoples personal experiences and what they do.

Thanks guys

There is so much BS in bodybuilding, that's why you are confused.

Progressive overload is just this simple...you give yourself a rep range, you train with a weight that limits you to reps within that range...when you can do more reps than the range calls for, you need a heavier weight. That's it, its that freaking simple.


Look, when I started lifting I couldn't bench 65 pounds and I couldn't squat 100.


Now I can bench 400 and squat 450 and deadlift 525....not earth shattering numbers by any stretch but when we examine how far I have come from when I first started....that's a tremendous improvement....

The method of training?

progressive overload and training to failure every time, sometimes beyond failure with the help of a spotter or by dropping some weight off the bar....(failure means I couldn't complete another rep)

Heres an example of rep ranges I have used...

deadlifts 1-5 reps- when I could do 5, I trained with more weight
squats/bench 3-5 reps, when I could do 5 I trained with more weight


5-8 reps- when I could do 8 with perfect form, I trained with more weight

6-10 reps- when I could do 10 with perfect form, I trained with more weight

8-12 reps- when I could do 12 with perfect form, I trained with more weight


pyramid style- training to failure starting with a weight that I could manage for 10-12 reps, add ten to fifteen lbs each set...until Id end up with 90 % of my 1 rep max


reverse pyramid style- start with 90% 1 rep max and reduce weight each set


All of this works, none of it will make you smaller or weaker.



Over the days, weeks, months, years....there are good days and bad days...keep a log that shows you your best sets and reps. All you really need to do is keep track of your PRs with any training weight you select.

don't expect your body to have progress each and every workout, like a power hitter in baseball, there are power surges and there are dips...hormones, stress, sleep, diet, recovery, motivation, environment and so on can impact your performance...

the main basic principle is this...you have to train hard enough, long enough, with enough weight to get the job done...then you need to rest enough, eat enough to allow your body to respond before you train it again.

don't overthink it...pick a rep range and get to work, always trying to handle more weight safely in whatever rep range you prefer. If you don't know what rep range you want, mix it up and vary it....hit everything from 3-12 reps heavy and hard and youlll gradually increase your training weights and your muscle mass.

Lift big, eat big, rest and grow.

[Luca2]

OP, that's a very interesting subject about which I have though a lot myself.
My personal experience (which is obviously just that - n=1) in terms of failure vs. volume is as follows.

For many months this year, I was unable to progress on flat bench, which I would do once/week on a 3 sets x 5 rep scheme.
I went to failure on the last set each time, and for months was unable to break through and reach 3 sets of 5 with the weight I was at to then move up in weight.
I tried resetting the weight as my program prescribed. Nothing. I tried eating more and just gained more fat.

Then I came across Greg Nuckols's articles stressing the principle of "when you're not progressing, DO MORE".
So I said to myself, instead of staying at three sets, why don't I do 4 or 5 (without going to failure necessarily) so that total weekly volume will be higher anyway? Instead of benching once/week, why don't I bench twice?

I tried both of those things, and lo and behold, my bench went up again slowly but surely.

My two cents - very interested in what more knowledgeable members have to say.