Matt Kroc is now Janae Marie, wow.....

[Kiwi_]

Looks like he signed up just to say that

[flangmasterj]

**** him with the rest of the transgenders and ***gots in the world

Woah woah woah what do gays have to do with this?

[Bankruptt]

That doesn't sound right but I don't know enough about trannys to dispute it

[baco_bacon]

This made me sick to my ****ing stomach when I found this out. ****ing sickening, what a sin. Matt Kroc was one of my favorites, meet him on several occasions, purchased one of his shirts..dvd..and had a poster of him in my weightroom. I looked up to him. not anymore. shirt, dvd got thrown in the ****ing trash,and poster got ripped off the wall and thrown in the trash. Cant believe he would pull this ****. **** him with the rest of the transgenders and ***gots in the world

you're one of those people that shouldn't be on this earth

[KiwiRob]

Woah woah woah what do gays have to do with this?

This is something I've always wondered, why gay people have allowed themselves to be lumped in with the transgender movement, as far as I'm concerned the two are not the same, you're born gay, you can't change being gay, it's a natural state of mind, you are not born transgender, that is a psychological disorder which for some god unknown reason is now being treated with surgery.

[DanielEver]

you're born gay, you can't change being gay, it's a natural state of mind

actually that's not proven, might be a combination of some factors

you are not born transgender, that is a psychological disorder

so... how do you know that being gay is something natural while being transgender is not?

[bartosh]

so... how do you know that being gay is something natural while being transgender is not?

Read the current leading scientist's thoughts in the field.

The current belief is that transgenderism is similar to body dysmorphia/anorexia where somebody views themselves differently than they actually are. Like an anorexic person views themselves as overly fat and they starve themselves to make themselves look "normal". So a transgender person views themselves as the opposite sex and they go through the surgeries to change themselves. From what I've read, in general, sex change operations don't help with the depression/body discomfort and other issues that come with pre-op transgenderism.

Key word: belief. Current belief. Maybe they're right but It may change and we can call ourselves idiots for thinking this in the future

Sexual attraction is a completely different ballpark and you cannot make the comparison

[PillClinton]

DSM has more authority over the matter of classifying transgender as a mental illness and it has stated that it is not considered one. They are the standard

[PillClinton]

Bad logic. It's not societal acceptable to have sex with children for many reasons. People may consider ****philia a mental illness but during the greek time period it was common for ****philia to occur. Does that mean you had an entire country of mentally Ill people? No. There is a difference between being mentally ill and whether or not your behavior is socially accepted. You wouldn't say all murderers are mentally, so lumping ****philia with mentally I'll people is a fallacy

[bartosh]

I have a friend who did her psychology master's thesis on the topic and what I posted is the short version of what she told me. I'm no expert like her so I can't have a debate/discussion on the topic. Your points are all valid and I'm not trying to counter-argue.

[TBoneBrah]

I know the guy isn't in the IFBB but he is still considered a bodybuilder. At first I thought it may have been a joke, but this link confirmed it.

http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=576905.0

http://ink361.com/app/users/ig-13366...riekroc/photos

"It" underwent the procedure over a year ago, but news just came out a few days ago. Personally I'm shocked, wasn't a fan of him, but the guy had kids....

Just terrible.

In her defence, she was going to wait until his kids where out of highschool so the werent ridiculed.

[TBoneBrah]

So they're...Marie Rows now? Doesn't have the same punch.

No, they are still Kroc Rows, her name is Janae Marie Kroc.

[pyrolee]

Bad logic. It's not societal acceptable to have sex with children for many reasons. People may consider ****philia a mental illness but during the greek time period it was common for ****philia to occur. Does that mean you had an entire country of mentally Ill people? No. There is a difference between being mentally ill and whether or not your behavior is socially accepted. You wouldn't say all murderers are mentally, so lumping ****philia with mentally I'll people is a fallacy

Well said.

[lotus_esprit5]

Read the current leading scientist's thoughts in the field.

The current belief is that transgenderism is similar to body dysmorphia/anorexia where somebody views themselves differently than they actually are. Like an anorexic person views themselves as overly fat and they starve themselves to make themselves look "normal". So a transgender person views themselves as the opposite sex and they go through the surgeries to change themselves. From what I've read, in general, sex change operations don't help with the depression/body discomfort and other issues that come with pre-op transgenderism.

Key word: belief. Current belief. Maybe they're right but It may change and we can call ourselves idiots for thinking this in the future

Sexual attraction is a completely different ballpark and you cannot make the comparison

I'm sure your friend knows a lot more about this than I do. But I've actually read just the opposite - that post-op transgender people often have good results, and do recover from the depression and body discomfort they experienced pre-op. Being transgender is similar to body dysmorphia in the sense that you're uncomfortable with your body, but the difference is that typical dysmorphia does not go away when the person gains muscle/loses weight/whatever it is they want to do to achieve comfort. In other words, indulging their compulsions does not fix their problem and their discomfort remains. Most post-op transgender patients, on the other hand, DO experience relief. This is probably helped by the rigorous process one must go through to get gender reassignment surgery, which involves quite a bit of psychological counseling over an extended time to make sure the person is a good candidate, as well as making sure they are physically healthy enough for it. Gender reassignment is a highly aggressive treatment and doctors don't do it on a whim, they have to make sure it is truly the best option for a particular patient.


I'm sad to see all the hatred here toward transgender people and I think a little knowledge would go a long way toward promoting greater acceptance. But it seems we've both tried to learn a little more about it than the average person and still heard nearly opposite things, which perhaps indicates that doctors and scientists still have a lot of work to do in this area.

Regardless of why people are transgender, I don't see any point in being intolerant of them (I'm not necessarily directing this part at you Bartosh). There is nothing inherent about being transgender that is harmful to others, so I don't see why people use it as an excuse to be hateful. If this was an X-Men comic many of you would be the bad guys. Most transgender people experience incredible hardship in a society that largely misunderstands and hates them, and anyone who endures that and can still function as a well-adjusted person has a bigger pair than the people who prefer to make their lives harder for no reason other than because they are different.

[bartosh]

I'd say i need to read into it more but i don't care enough about the topic. I leave it at: ima do me, and u do u baby

[HeroesFall]

This is something I've always wondered, why gay people have allowed themselves to be lumped in with the transgender movement, as far as I'm concerned the two are not the same, you're born gay, you can't change being gay, it's a natural state of mind, you are not born transgender, that is a psychological disorder which for some god unknown reason is now being treated with surgery.

What!?

So being gay is "born that way" but being born physically one gender but potentially believing that you are, feel, and should be the other gender is a state of mind? So sexual preference is set at birth, BUT the possibility of the hormone existing to grow a clit to a dink, but not have the mind be formed male, is illogical.

Do people seriously not see why none of these arguments are taken seriously? It's all piece meal bull. You fight for one, but not the other. An agenda, nothing more. If you believe one, then the other should be just as possible. If not then explain hermaphrodites or animals that can change sex - sometimes nature fuks up.

And before the whole "Zomg research" realize the gay push has been ongoing and getting much more funding than the tranny one. Maybe with several million it will be "verified" too.


Regardless, I don't give a chit what you are or who you want to fuk, but for sanity sake, admit that all of it is a broken, failed biological result and the folks are left living with it. And yes, it is a biological mishap, because otherwise "gay" species would be extinct, procreation would be impossible. On the positive everyone's a little fukd up, so it's not like anyone is truly alone.

Thread is still stupid though, as is the attention this is getting.

[DanielEver]

And yes, it is a biological mishap, because otherwise "gay" species would be extinct, procreation would be impossible.

it might come as a surprise to you, but gay people can procreate as well

[BandApart]

This makes me so angry that a person I know only from youtube videos is pursuing happiness and fulfillment in a way that, while not affecting my life in any way, is different from from what I perceive as normal. In fact, even though I will forget all about Janae Kroc by tomorrow, I think he should stop what he is doing in order to appease my loose and subjective interpretation of morality, at the expense of his own happiness. That way when the subject occasionally comes up on an internet forum I won't have to feel that my religion or my ideals have been challenged in any way.

And what I really hope is that he or others in his situation that are struggling with their identity can see my angry comments and feel as if they can not be accepted in society. After all everyone should strive to be normal (like me).

[2am]

I think it's funny how transsexualism comes about because aspects of gender we find typical to each specific gender (dresses etc) are a social construct. At the end of the day it doesn't really matter to me if some bloke wants to wear a dress and grow their hair out. If it's what makes them happy then more power to them

[KiwiRob]

actually that's not proven, might be a combination of some factors



so... how do you know that being gay is something natural while being transgender is not?

You can't disprove it either, of the several gay people I know and are friends with all have said they were never interested in the opposite sex right from the start.

Transgender is plain old junk science which started in the 50's with Kinsey and carried on with Money in the 60's, 70's and up to today, as far as I'm concerned biology is king, females are females, males are males, then there are intersex people but they are the exception.

I like this quote, I think it sums up a lot, a man who removes his penis because he thinks he's a women is just a man without a penis..

Robin Morgan, the keynote speaker, said:

I will not call a male “she”; thirty-two years of suffering in this androcentric society, and of surviving, have earned me the title “woman”; one walk down the street by a male transvestite, five minutes of his being hassled (which he may enjoy), and then he dares, he dares to think he understands our pain? No, in our mothers’ names and in our own, we must not call him sister.

and

In this view, gender is less an identity than a caste position. Anyone born a man retains male privilege in society; even if he chooses to live as a woman—and accept a correspondingly subordinate social position—the fact that he has a choice means that he can never understand what being a woman is really like. By extension, when trans women demand to be accepted as women they are simply exercising another form of male entitlement. All this enrages trans women and their allies, who point to the discrimination that trans people endure; although radical feminism is far from achieving all its goals, women have won far more formal equality than trans people have.

Germaine Greer also sums it up nicely

In 1999, in the book the whole woman, Germaine Greer published a sequel to The Female Eunuch. One chapter was titled "Pantomime Dames", wherein she states her opposition to accepting trans women who were assigned male at birth as women: "Governments that consist of very few women have hurried to recognise as women men who believe that they are women and have had themselves castrated to prove it, because they see women not as another sex but as a non-sex. No so-called sex-change has ever begged for a uterus-and-ovaries transplant; if uterus-and-ovaries transplants were made mandatory for wannabe women they would disappear overnight. The insistence that man-made women be accepted as women is the institutional expression of the mistaken conviction that women are defective males."

I know most of the women I know, wife, mother, sister, aunts, friends would never consider a transwoman as a real women, nor would I consider a transman a man.

[flangmasterj]

Very well spoken and not real hard to look at surprisingly. Good for you Matt.

[DanielEver]

You can't disprove it either, of the several gay people I know and are friends with all have said they were never interested in the opposite sex right from the start.

So if you had some gay friends who'd tell you they started realizing they are gay, like, in their teens, would that make a difference? And if I had some transgender friends who'd tell that they felt they belonged to another gender since forever, would that count as a proof?

Transgender is plain old junk science which started in the 50's with Kinsey and carried on with Money in the 60's, 70's and up to today, as far as I'm concerned biology is king, females are females, males are males, then there are intersex people but they are the exception.

Em... being male or female is a matter of physiology when we talk about sex, but considering gender it's way more difficult. Considering how obvious it is that gender is pretty much a social construct, I still can't wrap my head around you being so defensive about some people being gay yet so hostile towards people who are transgender.

[stealth_swimmer]

Can't believe this thread is still going, lol.

Also don't see why some people are so upset about it. If it grosses you out, that's one thing, but why bother being hateful about it? If you don't like it, then don't look, lol. I have religious views against this, but that doesn't mean I gotta be mad at Matt/Janet.

As for saying this is ruining our society...no, just no. There's plenty of stuff that really is, but this isn't one of them. For one thing, it's not even a large percentage of the population to where it's even having large scale effects. There are plenty of other things that are. Crime, nationalism/xenophobia, drug prohibition, police brutality, all far worse problems.

[SWThomas]

Came into this thread out of curiosity... Left completely disgusted that so many people are supportive of this...

[HeroesFall]

[QUOTE=DanielEver;1386451643]it might come as a surprise to you, but gay people can procreate as well[/QUOTE
Please cite the article where 2 malegs humans or 2 female humans were in fact able to create a baby using only natural means and without the assistance of a donor or sponsor.

[DanielEver]

[QUOTE=HeroesFall;1387102523]

it might come as a surprise to you, but gay people can procreate as well[/QUOTE
Please cite the article where 2 malegs humans or 2 female humans were in fact able to create a baby using only natural means and without the assistance of a donor or sponsor.

em... a gay man can have sex with a woman, though not liking it really.

[TropicalSunset]

One thing that should be abundantly clear is that OUR opinion on this should not matter. What OUR thoughts are on whether she is a woman or not are all irrelevant. All that matters is that she thinks that. If she wants to be a she, then she is a she. She isn't hurting anyone by doing it and that really should be the only criteria that should come into play here.

Of course religious nuts and conservatives I am sure will make a claim that she is hurting the fabric of society and "traditional values" (which tend to include racism, sexism and xenophobia usually) and that because of this, the behavior of someone else should be banned. What we need to do is focus less on silly issues like this which are non-issues and focus on fixing the more immediate things wrong with the world, like the environment, banks and corporations of out control. Once we address these issues, everything else will fall into place.

We are being made to quarrel with each other. Unite we stand, divided we fall. We are all brothers and sister. And we really should let each other decide if we are a brother or sister...hehehheheh.

[RoroCwalker]

One thing that should be abundantly clear is that OUR opinion on this should not matter. What OUR thoughts are on whether she is a woman or not are all irrelevant. All that matters is that she thinks that. If she wants to be a she, then she is a she. She isn't hurting anyone by doing it and that really should be the only criteria that should come into play here.

Of course religious nuts and conservatives I am sure will make a claim that she is hurting the fabric of society and "traditional values" (which tend to include racism, sexism and xenophobia usually) and that because of this, the behavior of someone else should be banned. What we need to do is focus less on silly issues like this which are non-issues and focus on fixing the more immediate things wrong with the world, like the environment, banks and corporations of out control. Once we address these issues, everything else will fall into place.

We are being made to quarrel with each other. Unite we stand, divided we fall. We are all brothers and sister. And we really should let each other decide if we are a brother or sister...hehehheheh.

If I think that I am a turtle, then I am a turtle?
Should I be on news for being the first turtle to speak and the first turtle with hair on its body?

So I can claim to be a woman (therefore I am a woman) and then join a woman's division in 'x' sport?

I'm not coming from a religious/conservative/traditional values standpoint, I'm simply contesting the claim on a logical basis.

What someone thinks they are, is completely irrelevant to what they are, unless that particular "thing" directly relies/fluctuates based on what that individual thinks.

"Not hurting anyone" doesn't excuse the fallacious nature of such a claim.

[KiwiRob]

This man thinks he's a cat, is he really a cat or just someone with a few problems. I see trans people in the same light.

[TropicalSunset]

If I think that I am a turtle, then I am a turtle?
Should I be on news for being the first turtle to speak and the first turtle with hair on its body?

So I can claim to be a woman (therefore I am a woman) and then join a woman's division in 'x' sport?

I'm not coming from a religious/conservative/traditional values standpoint, I'm simply contesting the claim on a logical basis.

What someone thinks they are, is completely irrelevant to what they are, unless that particular "thing" directly relies/fluctuates based on what that individual thinks.

"Not hurting anyone" doesn't excuse the fallacious nature of such a claim.

Of course Roro will take this and break it down into a philosophical argument. The point I am trying to make is that it is VERY easy to discriminate against people based on silly things if we don't accept that people can perceive themselves as other than what they appear to us.

If someone believes they are a turtle, then why not allow them the opportunity to do that if they are not hurting anyone with it.

As far as competing as a woman because you feel you are a woman, that is a much tougher issue, as obviously you are at an advantage.

Also you are placing too much value on what we think male and female mean. Is being a male just being born with the genitalia, or is there also a wider definition of male which would include certain characteristics found in males, which are not usually found in females? If you are trying to be logical about it, then you will realize that everything relies on our perception of it and our definition of what a male is, which can vary widely.

All that to say, YOU think they are not male. THEY think they are, as their definition of it is different than yours.