Why everybody's deadlifting their way to snap city.

[MarcAWilson]

I'm going to disregard snaps caused by form breakdown. You can deadlift with perfect form and injure yourself. These power building splits that have become so popular are at the root of the problem I think. Combining frequent heavy powerlifts with high-volume compounds is asking for injury. Its much better than the old school 7 day bro split, but I think its gone too far in the other direction. If strength and size is a goal, perform the lifts that will assist your strength, and then use machines/cables to isolate muscle. 531 squats followed by 5x10 squats every single week is just too much for the sinew to take.

1. Not mobile enough. If you're hams are tight, specifically Biceps Femoris, your hip will tuck slightly. That slight tuck might be invisible and the deadlift will look perfect. When your legs lack the mobility to get your hip into deadlift position, it will borrow mobility from your lower back, which is an area you where you want very little ROM. Side note: You do NOT want a flexible/mobile lower back. That complex should be rigid.

If you can't do a lying active straight leg raise to at least 70º without moving your hips, you do not have the mobility to deadlift.

2. The popular programs are too specific. Specificity is important, but performing the exact same movement over and over leads to over-use injuries and lack of integrity that could be avoided with a little more exercise variation. The goal of training is to build the body to be able to do certain things. Sometimes doing that exact thing is not the best way to build the necessary strength.

3. Stability is completely ignored. Uni-lateral work and unstable work should be a big part of every program. Strength programs have you hitting compounds, some fluff work, and das it. Im not saying to stand on a bosu ball and play catch for an hour, Im saying include some single legged RDLs, some rows from a side plank, some ab/adduction.

4. Lighter weight =/= sub maximal. There is a number of reps that will bring you to max fatigue, which is not what we want regardless of what guys like Dorian Yates say. Sub maximal means you could perform 1-2 more reps with near perfect form at the end of your set. Sub maximal training should make up almost all of your training. You can still progress without putting yourself at risk for injury.


I don't care how smart your programming is or how good you are at performing each lift. Continuous near-maximal exertion with very little exercise variation will snap your chit up eventually.


Conjugate method with sub maximal loads + at least some mobility/stability work = great for powerlifting.

DUP programs with a lot of exercise variation, including isolation exercises = great for bodybuilding.

Combining both and adding in a little impatience or ego = great for short term overreaching phases, NOT great for injury prevention and athletic longevity.



edit: 308smk made a good point about beginner-intermediate lifters.

Beginner-intermediates: ignore the bit about using variations of the main lift in place of the main lift sometimes. Focus should be on learning technique and progressing.

I'm saying most people don't need a bunch of fancy stability work and single leg movements and variants of the lifts when they don't even know how to properly and safely perform the lifts in the first place.

I'm saying you should practice the primary lifts more often, with less volume and intensity per session to get more time under the bar and practice performing the lift correctly with manageable weight(60-80% avg intensity), as this will be the primary driver of progress from the beginner to upper intermediate stage.

Im saying to focus your extra energy on getting your core and stabilizers working properly through proper bracing techniques and strong through simple movements that you can easily increase the load on, such as weighted planks and GHR situps.


What Louie Simmons is talking about has little relevance to anyone outside of advanced multiply lifting. Total workload + volume are the main drivers of progress, not exercise variation. The reason for variants in the westside conjugate system is to allow you to grain above 90% without having to load a grand on the bar and getting into jacked up gear every week. This has no relevance to some kid trying to squat and pull 315.

[InspecktaDeck]

Most of the kids on this website deadlift with atrocious technique and have even worse mobility. Im sure the fact that majority of this forum has rock bottom T levels doesnt help.

[MarcAWilson]

Most of the kids on this website deadlift with atrocious technique and have even worse mobility. Im sure the fact that majority of this forum has rock bottom T levels doesnt help.

Truuue. Unfortunately I don't have any videos on my new phone, but my deadlift form is on point. I can feel when my form is off or when my mobility is lacking. I would absolutely admit to form breakdown if that were the case. But I snapped my back up doing an easy set of deads with solid form. Just spent way too long only training the compounds and neglecting exercise variation. Nagging injuries built up from over-use. When I ran a more varied program, I felt great and was pain free, and was consistently building strength. When I started getting strong, I got too excited to lift heavy so I hopped on a super-specific and very taxing program.

Lesson learned.

[schoobs]

I cheat and use the trap bar? i think its called. I tried using the regular bar for deadlifts once and my lower back hurt the next morning so i just decided that wasn't for me.


i like the information though, helps a noob out like myself

[NameUnavailable]

Lol at people deadlifting too heavy under 5 reps or going for a pr without a coach around, who happens to know his ****, who'll beat your ass when your form breaks down.

Also lol at people who think their form is good, but it's not.

Relaxing under tension or form breakdown due to too heavy weight or fatigued, no thanks. That one rep, that one moment, brb welcome to snap city.

[amikaelmorris]

thats a lot of big words

brb deadlifting

[InspecktaDeck]

Truuue. Unfortunately I don't have any videos on my new phone, but my deadlift form is on point. I can feel when my form is off or when my mobility is lacking. I would absolutely admit to form breakdown if that were the case. But I snapped my back up doing an easy set of deads with solid form. Just spent way too long only training the compounds and neglecting exercise variation. Nagging injuries built up from over-use. When I ran a more varied program, I felt great and was pain free, and was consistently building strength. When I started getting strong, I got too excited to lift heavy so I hopped on a super-specific and very taxing program.

Lesson learned.

There are so many variables to resistance training. You can not be hydrated enough and tweak a muscle due to that. Being serious now, I do agree with you about over use stuff. You need movement specificity to get good at the lifts. Meaning if you want to be good at specific movements(like squat/bench/deadlift) you have to do them over and over and over again. However like you mentioned, this can lead to over use injuries. Nagging injuries can quickly become serious ones. You have to keep on top of that stuff. I dont do any lower unilateral work, but I really should..

[MarcAWilson]

I cheat and use the trap bar? i think its called. I tried using the regular bar for deadlifts once and my lower back hurt the next morning so i just decided that wasn't for me.


i like the information though, helps a noob out like myself

That not cheating. Thats what everybody should be doing. Find some variation of a hip-hinge that agrees with your body and stick with that movement. As mobility improves, experiment with different variations. On some body types (long femur, short arm), conventional deadlift will always put a chit ton of torque on your lower back. Which is why on a lot of databases, the primary mover listed in the deadlift is the spinal erector complex.

[TypeNirvash]

Deads were my biggest nemesis for a long time, mainly because I hadn't begun to use them until earlier last year. Squat and bench came very easily, but I struggled with dead lift form.

I was fortunate enough not to hurt my back, but I think that all injuries come from form breakdown or improper use of technique. You can get lucky and do something with poor form for a short amount of time and get away with it--but eventually, it will catch up to you.

I think one thing that you might want to add (and it sounds completely redundant) is this;

1) Work with a comfortable weight (ie; one that activates hamstrings but is not taxing) until you have developed the ability to perform the lift before progressing.

I also want to stress that Deads should be deloaded every so often. I prefer to train around 2-5 reps with Deads, and I think that it's important to give your body time to relax as stress begins to build up.

[AshWar]

Most of the kids on this website deadlift with atrocious technique and have even worse mobility. Im sure the fact that majority of this forum has rock bottom T levels doesnt help.

Why so fuking salty? A lot of us have other things to do beside lifting like a mindless **** for 4 hours in the gym.

[InspecktaDeck]

Why so fuking salty? A lot of us have other things to do beside lifting like a mindless **** for 4 hours in the gym.

So your saying you take the time to lift but dont put in the extra effort it takes not to hurt yourself? Interesting..

[MarcAWilson]

There are so many variables to resistance training. You can not be hydrated enough and tweak a muscle due to that. Being serious now, I do agree with you about over use stuff. You need movement specificity to get good at the lifts. Meaning if you want to be good at specific movements(like squat/bench/deadlift) you have to do them over and over and over again. However like you mentioned, this can lead to over use injuries. Nagging injuries can quickly become serious ones. You have to keep on top of that stuff. I dont do any lower unilateral work, but I really should..

Yep. Which is why I like 531 if you actually use 90% as your training max, followed by smart accessory work. You practice the movement with light enough weight to use perfect form. If you read the book, Wendler cites plenty of guys who put up waaaaay more in a meet than they did in training. Whereas most people struggle to match their gym PRs in a meet setting. Says a lot about the power of sub maximal training.

I think the fact that my new job has me standing 8 hours a day may have weakened my lower back a bit. Not enough for me to feel it, but enough for a regular deadlift set at like 70% of my max to snap my chit up without even feeling heavy.

About the uni-lateral work: I neglected it for a while, and now when I try to do it I get really naggy aches in my knees and hips. Not a good sign. Also, lunges aren't necessarily uni-lateral work. Both feet are on the ground during the main exertion. Which technically makes it a bi-lateral movement. Which is why I like Single legged deadlift variations, single legged leg press, and weighted step ups over lunges and split squats. The true uni-lateral movements add a balance and stability component that does a lot for joint health that things like lunges and split squats don't give you.

[MarcAWilson]

Deads were my biggest nemesis for a long time, mainly because I hadn't begun to use them until earlier last year. Squat and bench came very easily, but I struggled with dead lift form.

I was fortunate enough not to hurt my back, but I think that all injuries come from form breakdown or improper use of technique. You can get lucky and do something with poor form for a short amount of time and get away with it--but eventually, it will catch up to you.

I think one thing that you might want to add (and it sounds completely redundant) is this;

1) Work with a comfortable weight (ie; one that activates hamstrings but is not taxing) until you have developed the ability to perform the lift before progressing

I also want to stress that Deads should be deloaded every so often. I prefer to train around 2-5 reps with Deads, and I think that it's important to give your body time to relax as stress begins to build up.

In response to the bolded, thats the case most times. But when we're talking about the small percentage of lifters that take training seriously and know what they're doing, most injuries are accumulated over too much time under stress. I can't think of a single competitive lifter I know personally or accomplished ones I know of that have not dealt with aches and pains. Candito might be the only example, but even he talks about nagging injuries from time to time, and he steps away from the maximal training for long periods of time. Watch his video on deadlift mobility. He stresses the importance of uni-lateral work. That combination is why he is able to compete at a high level, regularly train heavy, and avoid serious injury. He takes steps back when necessary.

[Xone]

Just spent way too long only training the compounds and neglecting exercise variation. Nagging injuries built up from over-use. When I ran a more varied program, I felt great and was pain free, and was consistently building strength. When I started getting strong, I got too excited to lift heavy so I hopped on a super-specific and very taxing program.

Lesson learned.

There's some truth to this. Nagging injuries keep getting in the way of my training, I've tried both ways back to more bodybuilding style training and still got overuse injuries (wrist) since I got excited and just ramped the volume way up on variations instead since I had more energy. Now went back to more specific heavier training and my ankle is acting up, really need to find a balance and it's pissing me off...

[DrFlexologist]

trap bars you morons

[MarcAWilson]

There's some truth to this. Nagging injuries keep getting in the way of my training, I've tried both ways back to more bodybuilding style training and still got overuse injuries (wrist) since I got excited and just ramped the volume way up on variations instead since I had more energy. Now went back to more specific heavier training and my ankle is acting up, really need to find a balance and it's pissing me off...

Powerlifting is a bish. Unless I can find a way to really gain strength while avoiding all this pain, Im gonna have to find another sport. Bodybuilding is kinda boring and easy, and I never want to step on stage. But I really like the competitive mindset, and powerlifting is a great outlet for that. But its not worth how my elbow, knee, ankle, back, hip, sternum, and wrist feel on occasion. Especially when they turn into something that had me unable to walk for almost two days.

[MarcAWilson]

trap bars you morons

yup. the problem with trap bars in my opinion is that it can get a little too squatty and not be enough of a posterior dominant hip-hinge. When I heal up Im probably going to run a 531 type program with BB Hip Thrusts instead of deadlifts. Amazing posterior chain activation, easy to maintain a good position even when mobility isn't awesome.

[FaceMe00]

Most of the kids on this website deadlift with atrocious technique and have even worse mobility. Im sure the fact that majority of this forum has rock bottom T levels doesnt help.

[adamsz]

Most of the kids on this website deadlift with atrocious technique and have even worse mobility.

/thread

[MarcAWilson]

You post a pic of him squatting big weights with great form to refute what he's saying? Someone translate red for me please.

[JamesLI]

disagree, most people just have no idea form wise how to deadlift, or to do any llift correctly honestly.
Ive been deadlifting EOD past 2 months, feels great. Im not stupid, i manage my lifts correctly though.
Def disagree that people are deadlifting to often, most people here do not lift enough.


at least on bench press you can get away with sub par form for a few bro sets, curls, pullup, etc to a point. The form will help you lift more, but snap city is usually avoided.
Deadlift/squat is a whole other beast.
Hell all the things and cues i do to set up each lift, its quite a lot, and needs a bit of knowledge.

TLDR: people are stupid/lazy have chit form.

[Xone]

Powerlifting is a bish. Unless I can find a way to really gain strength while avoiding all this pain, Im gonna have to find another sport. Bodybuilding is kinda boring and easy, and I never want to step on stage. But I really like the competitive mindset, and powerlifting is a great outlet for that. But its not worth how my elbow, knee, ankle, back, hip, sternum, and wrist feel on occasion. Especially when they turn into something that had me unable to walk for almost two days.

I think greg nuckol's training advice for intemediates to train more like bodybuilders, do some practice with the main lifts in the 70-85% range, then get the bulk of their volume from accessories and variations to build muscle and work capacity is probably the smart route for longevity. Then do a shorter specific cycle for a month or so to peak for meets.

My problem with that is I'm a bit competitive with people in the gym and online. I see other people lifting heavier and hitting PRs all the time while I'm mostly doing lighter stuff and I wanna go switch back to heavy work and do that too...

[ryan0931]

Awesome info! You think doing agile 8 before every workout is good enough for mobility? Plus I do static stretches post workout to make sure nothing is tight.

[MarcAWilson]

I think greg nuckol's training advice for intemediates to train more like bodybuilders, do some practice with the main lifts in the 70-85% range, then get the bulk of their volume from accessories and variations to build muscle and work capacity is probably the smart route for longevity. Then do a shorter specific cycle for a month or so to peak for meets.

My problem with that is I'm a bit competitive with people in the gym and online. I see other people lifting heavier and hitting PRs all the time while I'm mostly doing lighter stuff and I wanna go switch back to heavy work and do that too...

are you me? I spend a lot of time going over my programming, I feel like I find a good plan, then 4 weeks in I feel good and say fugg it I'm hitting singles today. Then its a ****show of pyramiding up to heavy singles. Then I take a step back, hop back on a program, and snap my chit up on an easy set because my body is not ready.

[brbgoingpotato]

currently deadlifting 3x per week... one day 5/3/1 program, the other two doing 3 x 8 with 55-65%


cum at me

[lawsfallmute]

Great post. The same can be said for squatting: lack of mobility, proper form, and using too heavy of a weight will fukk you up. If your glutes aren't firing properly the majority of the effort will be put into your quads or your back, causing imbalances. The worst is seeing certified trainers using improper form.

[MarcAWilson]

Awesome info! You think doing agile 8 before every workout is good enough for mobility? Plus I do static stretches post workout to make sure nothing is tight.

I don't think any cookie-cutter mobility routine is right for everybody. Agile 8 is a good place to start, and its what Jim Wendler recommends. I prefer Bryce Lewis's customizable warm up/mobility method:






I also think its best to do most of your mobility work post workout or really at anytime that isn't right before you lift. Before lifting should be getting your body ready to be in certain positions and go through certain movements. All the maintenance work should be done outside of that time slot. My end goal is to be able to drop into a perfect squat straight out of bed in the morning. If you can do that, pre-workout mobility work can be kept to a minimum. Agile 8 and a quick run through of Bryce's method is sufficient only if you keep up the maintenance work outside of the gym.

[MarcAWilson]

currently deadlifting 3x per week... one day 5/3/1 program, the other two doing 3 x 8 with 55-65%


cum at me

Goodnight sweet sacro-illiac joint.

[PokLim]

because of dat ego bruhh

[MarcAWilson]

Great post. The same can be said for squatting: lack of mobility, proper form, and using too heavy of a weight will fukk you up. If your glutes aren't firing properly the majority of the effort will be put into your quads or your back, causing imbalances. The worst is seeing certified trainers using improper form.

Certified trainer checking in. I've had some great co workers who know their chit, but also some who literally don't know how to squat properly. Not like they don't have the mobility, like they do not know how to perform the movement. Makes me so mad because before I became a trainer I really looked up to trainers. It was a position I held in high regard, because where I lift, most of the trainers were incredibly smart. 2 years later, I don't work as a trainer anymore. But thats another thread.