Reducing Carb Content

[quadimoso]

Hi!Guys,
Dont know if this is the best category to explain my problem, but here goes.

I'm a 22 year old guy weighing about 200 pounds, I can say am a cross between and endomorph and mesomorph which basically means that gaining mass isn't a problem for me,my bodyfat percentage unfortunately is quiet high which is definitely a problem.


I've been training for about 4 weeks, 3 times a week, and have seen some good improvements:


Bench Press 120 pounds 5 reps
Squat 180 pounds 5 reps
Barbell Curl 65 pounds 6 reps
Dumbell Row 50 pounds 7 reps

I want to start using some supplements to boost my protein intake which is quiet low. with so many products on the market I've settled on EAS Phos****en which gives me 25 grams of protein per serving and has 75 servings. I also want to start taking Creatine coz I hear it works so well the only creatine available here is Cell-Tech by Muscle Tech which has gotten some really bad reviews from this forum coz of its high carb content which for me is definitely not what I need.


I'm currently taking 3 meals a day coz I don't believe I have a high enough metabolism to eat the 6 meals a day that
most pros insist on.

What I want to know is whether reducing my carb content so that my body uses my bodyfat as its primary source of
energy could affect the muscle gains I already have?

I'm afraid that if I increase my carb content my bodyfat will increase.

Anybody with any advice to give me,like post it here

[imperfectly_lou]

First off, eating 6 meals a day will actually help to INCREASE your metabolism. You just eat 6 smaller meals rather than 3 big ones, so your calories actually don't change. You will find you have increased energy.

It is hard to comment on your diet without seeing it. Can you post an average daily menu so we can look at the carb content.

[sawastea]

Originally posted by imperfectly_lou
First off, eating 6 meals a day will actually help to INCREASE your metabolism. You just eat 6 smaller meals rather than 3 big ones, so your calories actually don't change. You will find you have increased energy.

It is hard to comment on your diet without seeing it. Can you post an average daily menu so we can look at the carb content.

EXACTLY!

Plz post diet...

[quadimoso]

This is my diet,not very good but what can I do?I come from a third world country.:

Breakfast
4 Slices of whole wheat bread
2 egg whites

Lunch
Maize Meal
1/4 kilo of meat(about 1 pound)
Kale

Supper
Maize Meal/Rice Dish
Vegetables/Meat

Before Bed
Half Litre of whole milk.

Unfortunately there is some inconsistency sometimes especially during supper.
Your advice is appreciated.

[sawastea]

Originally posted by quadimoso
Breakfast
4 Slices of whole wheat bread
2 egg whites

Lunch
Maize Meal
1/4 kilo of meat(about 1 pound)
Kale

Supper
Maize Meal/Rice Dish
Vegetables/Meat

Before Bed
Half Litre of whole milk.

Well, firstly eliminate the 1/2 L of whole milk before bed and substitute it for some cottage cheese. Each of your meals are TOO big in size. If breakfast is at 8 (example), try and get something in your stomach by 10-10:30 and then 12-1 (lunch). You also need a snack 3ish and for supper try and eliminate the rice and substitute it for some lean protein. You're also missing some valuable EFA's. Your metabolism will NOT slow dowen if you add meals. On the contrary, it will speed up. Drink about a 4L of water a day as well

[quadimoso]

Sawastea,
Thanks for the advice. I usually boil my eggs then eat the egg white, does boiling the eggs reduce the protein content? Is there a better way of preparing the egg whites? Can

I'm thinking of changing my diet in the following way:

Breakfast-( 7.30 am)
4 slices of Whole Wheat Bread
4 egg whites
1 serving of EAS Phospagen(25 grams of protein per serving) in whole milk.
2 glasses of water.

11 am
4 Bananas
1 avocado
2 glasses of water

1 pm
Maize Meal
1 pound of boiled meat
2 bananas
2 glasses of water

4 pm
Assorted fruits


7pm (Pre workout meal)
5 slices whole wheat bread
Small can of sardines- about 100gm need to confirm

-Usually workout from 8 pm to 9pm

Post workout meal
1 serving of EAS Phos****en
1 Avocados.
2 glasses of water

10 pm (Before Bed)
Assorted fruits.

Please tell me where the EFA's can come in and another way to improve the diet.

If you goy any ideas on how I can increase my protein amounts post it here.

Cheers

[user34566548717114]

hmmmm meals still look way to big and if your trying to lose weight you can cut out alot of stuff.......first change the whole milk to skim or at least 1% save alot of calories right there.....try this for a diet

breakfast
-2 slices whole wheat bread
-4 egg whites
-2 glasses of water
(i would try to get some oatmeal though, my personal favorite)

2 hours later
-1 serving eas phospagen in skim or 1%

Lunch
-1/2 pound of broiled meat
-1 banana
-2 glasses of water
-mixed veggies

2 hours later
-maybe some fruit???? not sure of what you are limited too, but no more then 2 bananas

dinner (after workout meal)
-2 slices whole wheat
-1/2 pound of broiled meat
-some sardines

before bed
I would just take a protien shake or a can of tuna........

this is of course if your cutting.....overall fruits and not the best idea to cut with but if thats what you have to work with do what you gotta.....also note with any meal you can add in some veggies just be careful about what you put on top of them

[quadimoso]

Hey dvv,

"this is of course if your cutting.....overall fruits and not the best idea to cut with"

Why can't I use fruits to cut with?

Remember that my protein intake still has to be high.

[shiska]

Originally posted by quadimoso
Why can't I use fruits to cut with?

You can use fruits, in moderation. People are over paranoid because fruits contain fructose. However, the amount of fructose you get from most fruits is negligible. The stuff you really want to avoid is high fructose corn syrup that is present in a lot of processed foods and colas. One or two pieces of fresh fruit per day is fine.

You seem to have fruit as a mainstay in your diet and are mainly using bananas which are probably one of the worst fruit choices you could make. You definitely need to cut most of it out and stick with lower GI fruits like apples, cherries, pears, etc. Do a search for glycemic index and find some more lower GI fruits.

As far as eating six times a day for increased metabolism, that is a myth. You get the same daily energy expenditure and RMR whether you eat 3 times or 6. Eating smaller meals causes a smaller thermogenic effect that doesn't last as long as a bigger meal would cause.

That's not to say that there aren't benefits to eating smaller, more frequent meals though. Grazing will help keep your glucose level throughout the day, providing a constant source of energy for workout recovery as well as helping to avoid hunger-induced binge sessions. Plus it's hard to cram your daily protein requirement into three meals. So by all means, eat more frequently, but don't do it under the guise of increasing your metabolism.

[Buff_Daddy]

Originally posted by shiska


As far as eating six times a day for increased metabolism, that is a myth. You get the same daily energy expenditure and RMR whether you eat 3 times or 6. Eating smaller meals causes a smaller thermogenic effect that doesn't last as long as a bigger meal would cause.

Dividing the total energy consumed into smaller frequent portions would certainly allow better appetite and body weight control, however I don't think it actually increases metabolism like you said.

However, metabolic utilization certainly differs according to the way in which nutrients are supplied... e.g. protein will provide more benefit if the supply is more equable.

[shiska]

Some research to go with what I said above (taken from posts on the avant labs board and from the WBB board):

Effect of the pattern of food intake on human energy metabolism.

Verboeket-van de Venne WP, Westerterp KR, Kester AD.

Department of Human Biology, University of Limburg, Maastricht, The Netherlands.

The pattern of food intake can affect the regulation of body weight and lipogenesis. We studied the effect of meal frequency on human energy expenditure (EE) and its components. During 1 week ten male adults (age 25-61 years, body mass index 20.7-30.4 kg/m2) were fed to energy balance at two meals/d (gorging pattern) and during another week at seven meals/d (nibbling pattern). For the first 6 d of each week the food was provided at home, followed by a 36 h stay in a respiration chamber. O2 consumption and CO2 production (and hence EE) were calculated over 24 h. EE in free-living conditions was measured over the 2 weeks with doubly-labelled water (average daily metabolic rate, ADMR). The three major components of ADMR are basal metabolic rate (BMR), diet-induced thermogenesis (DIT) and EE for physical activity (ACT). There was no significant effect of meal frequency on 24 h EE or ADMR. Furthermore, BMR and ACT did not differ between the two patterns. DIT was significantly elevated in the gorging pattern, but this effect was neutralized by correction for the relevant time interval. With the method used for determination of DIT no significant effect of meal frequency on the contribution of DIT to ADMR could be demonstrated.


Another one by the same guys:

Verboeket-van de Venne WP, Westerterp KR.

Department of Human Biology, University of Limburg, Maastricht, The Netherlands.

A study was conducted to investigate the effect of feeding frequency on the rate and composition of weight loss and 24 h energy metabolism in moderately obese women on a 1000 kcal/day diet. During four consecutive weeks fourteen female adults (age 20-58 years, BMI 25.4-34.9 kg/m2) restricted their food intake to 1000 kcal/day. Seven subjects consumed the diet in two meals daily (gorging pattern), the others consumed the diet in three to five meals (nibbling pattern). Body mass and body composition, obtained by deuterium dilution, were measured at the start of the experiment and after two and four weeks
of dieting. Sleeping metabolic rate (SMR) was measured at the same time intervals using a respiration chamber. At the end of the
experiment 24 h energy expenditure (24 h EE) and diet-induced
thermogenesis (DIT) were assessed by a 36 h stay in the respiration chamber. There was no significant effect of the feeding frequency on the rate of weight loss, fat mass loss or fat-free mass loss. Furthermore, fat mass and fat-free mass contributed equally to weight loss in subjects on both gorging and nibbling diet. Feeding frequency had no significant effect on SMR after two or four weeks of dieting. The decrease in SMR after four weeks was significantly greater in subjects on the nibbling diet. 24 h EE and DIT were not significantly different between the two feeding regimens.


Meal frequency and energy balance.

Bellisle F, McDevitt R, Prentice AM.

INSERM U341, Hotel Dieu de Paris, France.

Several epidemiological studies have observed an inverse relationship between people's habitual frequency of eating and body weight, leading to the suggestion that a 'nibbling' meal pattern may help in the avoidance of obesity. A review of all pertinent studies shows that, although many fail to find any significant relationship, the relationship is consistently inverse in those that do observe a relationship. However, this finding is highly vulnerable to the probable confounding effects of post hoc changes in dietary patterns as a consequence of weight gain and to dietary under-reporting which undoubtedly invalidates some of the studies. We conclude that the epidemiological evidence is at best very weak, and almost certainly represents an artefact. A detailed review of the possible mechanistic explanations for a metabolic advantage of nibbling meal patterns failed to reveal significant benefits in respect of energy expenditure. Although some short-term studies suggest that the thermic effect of feeding is higher when an isoenergetic test load is divided
into multiple small meals, other studies refute this, and most are
neutral. More importantly, studies using whole-body calorimetry and doubly-labelled water to assess total 24 h energy expenditure find no difference between nibbling and gorging. Finally, with the exception of a single study, there is no evidence that weight loss on hypoenergetic regimens is altered by meal frequency. We conclude that any effects of meal pattern on the regulation of body weight are likely to be mediated through effects on the food intake side of the energy balance equation.

[shiska]

Originally posted by Buff_Daddy
Dividing the total energy consumed into smaller frequent portions would certainly allow better appetite and body weight control, however I don't think it actually increases metabolism like you said.

However, metabolic utilization certainly differs according to the way in which nutrients are supplied... e.g. protein will provide more benefit if the supply is more equable.

This was posted by Lyle McDonald on the Avant Labs board:

"Frankly, I think that may be the major benefit of eating more frequently: blood glucose maintenance. Protein is just such a non-issue, it takes hours and hours to digest.

Then again, I have seen a study where they gave folks some ungodly amount of carbs (like 500 grams, I think it was one of Acheson's early DNL studies) and blood glucose was maintained for a solid 8 hours at least.

So, as long as the meals are big enough, it may still not matter. Digestion is highly regulated, the presence of nutrients in the small intestine (and increased blood glucose itself) slows gastric emptying"


So if what Lyle says is true, and I don't doubt that it is, larger, less frequent meals can provide essentially the same level of plasma amino acids as smaller, more frequent meals due to the digestion rate. Plus we provide our bodies with cues about when to start protein synthesis (i.e., providing fast digesting carbs and protein post-workout). It may be that protein synthesis is associated with this spike in nutrients and that having a constant level of amino acids available through grazing is actually detrimental to gaining LBM. That's entirely speculative on my part, I'm not a nutrition expert and I'm just throwing around some hypotheses.

The basic gist of what I'm trying to say though is that while I believe smaller, more frequent meals are beneficial, there isn't any evidence that the magical 6 meals a day is any better for losing weight aside from it's appetite and binge control, and I'm neutral about it's benefits for gaining weight. The main benefit in my eyes is that you don't have to eat as much in one sitting if you eat more frequently and if you're bulking that could be a considerable amount to divide between just three meals. So eat when you can, but don't stress if you can't schedule six meals a day. The important thing is consistency in your eating habits, whether that includes 3 meals or more, and to make sure you're getting sufficient protein daily.

[robertthoburn]

Originally posted by quadimoso
Hi!Guys,
Dont know if this is the best category to explain my problem, but here goes.

I'm a 22 year old guy weighing about 200 pounds, I can say am a cross between and endomorph and mesomorph which basically means that gaining mass isn't a problem for me,my bodyfat percentage unfortunately is quiet high which is definitely a problem.


I've been training for about 4 weeks, 3 times a week, and have seen some good improvements:


Bench Press 120 pounds 5 reps
Squat 180 pounds 5 reps
Barbell Curl 65 pounds 6 reps
Dumbell Row 50 pounds 7 reps

I want to start using some supplements to boost my protein intake which is quiet low. with so many products on the market I've settled on EAS Phos****en which gives me 25 grams of protein per serving and has 75 servings. I also want to start taking Creatine coz I hear it works so well the only creatine available here is Cell-Tech by Muscle Tech which has gotten some really bad reviews from this forum coz of its high carb content which for me is definitely not what I need.


I'm currently taking 3 meals a day coz I don't believe I have a high enough metabolism to eat the 6 meals a day that
most pros insist on.

What I want to know is whether reducing my carb content so that my body uses my bodyfat as its primary source of
energy could affect the muscle gains I already have?

I'm afraid that if I increase my carb content my bodyfat will increase.

Anybody with any advice to give me,like post it here

Hi, Quadimoso. Unless you severely restrict your carbohydrate intake, you will not negatively affect muscle gains.

I routinely eat a diet providing ~20% carbohydrate, and suffer no negative affects insofar as building muscle is concerned.

You would be an ideal candidate for the dietary guidelines outlined in "Quick Start: How to eat" on my Web site. Please check it out. It tells you exactly how to figure out a diet that will enable you to get 'cut' while preserving or building muscle.

Kindest regards,
Rob

[Buff_Daddy]

Originally posted by shiska
This was posted by Lyle McDonald on the Avant Labs board:



So if what Lyle says is true, and I don't doubt that it is, larger, less frequent meals can provide essentially the same level of plasma amino acids as smaller, more frequent meals due to the digestion rate.

Eating a more constant supply ensures a positive nitrogen balance. It's necessary for keeping amino acids constantly available for recovering muscles.... also more efficient at preserving muscle mass.

I have read sources from individuals far more qualified than Lyle McDonald... i suggest you look elsewhere as well. You can share his opinions as you like... BS in kinesiology is it?

[shiska]

Originally posted by Buff_Daddy
I have read sources from individuals far more qualified than Lyle McDonald... i suggest you look elsewhere as well. You can share his opinions as you like... BS in kinesiology is it?

I'm willing to listen to anyone that can form a coherent thought process and back it with relevant research, regardless of the letters behind their name. I also read sources from other individuals and it's nearly impossible to get two or more 'experts' to agree 100 percent on anything. Plus if I thought it was the gospel truth, I would have rephrased it in my own words and not mentioned his name. As it was, I merely presented it as an opposing opinion and included the source.

The mere fact of it coming from Lyle does not make it an invalid opinion though. It makes sense to me that there would be a maximum absorption rate for anything you eat. Therefore, the more you eat at one time, the longer it would provide a steady benefit vis-a-vis taking longer to fully absorb. If you could only absorb 50 grams of protein per hour, would it make that much difference if you ate 50 grams every hour compared to 100 grams every two hours? I don't know.

It seems to me that the main supporters of the 6 meals a day approach were companies that had a vested interest in getting us to eat more often, namely MRP manufacturers. "New research shows eating 6 meals a day is healthy, and we have a fast-mixing, fast-absorbing, high protein, double chocolate solution for three of those meals!!" I ate up those glossy ads during my teens and early 20's, wasting a lot of money and time on stuff that didn't work. That's why I come here now and encourage people to question the status quo.

[Buff_Daddy]

Originally posted by shiska
I'm willing to listen to anyone that can form a coherent thought process and back it with relevant research, regardless of the letters behind their name. I also read sources from other individuals and it's nearly impossible to get two or more 'experts' to agree 100 percent on anything. Plus if I thought it was the gospel truth, I would have rephrased it in my own words and not mentioned his name. As it was, I merely presented it as an opposing opinion and included the source.

The mere fact of it coming from Lyle does not make it an invalid opinion though. It makes sense to me that there would be a maximum absorption rate for anything you eat. Therefore, the more you eat at one time, the longer it would provide a steady benefit vis-a-vis taking longer to fully absorb. If you could only absorb 50 grams of protein per hour, would it make that much difference if you ate 50 grams every hour compared to 100 grams every two hours? I don't know.

It seems to me that the main supporters of the 6 meals a day approach were companies that had a vested interest in getting us to eat more often, namely MRP manufacturers. "New research shows eating 6 meals a day is healthy, and we have a fast-mixing, fast-absorbing, high protein, double chocolate solution for three of those meals!!" I ate up those glossy ads during my teens and early 20's, wasting a lot of money and time on stuff that didn't work. That's why I come here now and encourage people to question the status quo.

I understand your cynicism at any advice provided by supplement companies... but a lot of independent research as atleast shown that 6 meals a day has its benefits.... also you say its no better for losing or gaining weight... It depends how you define "better". Sure it wont technically make you lose weight, but it will preserve muscle mass, maintain more optimal amino acid plasma levels, and help control body weight and appetite much more effectively than eating 3 large meals. There is also no constant rate of protein absorption per hour that i know of... it depends on too many factors such as time of day, activity level, etc. Also, you can eat more calories with a lower rate of fat synthesis (generally) due to insulin responses. But, I suppose we all have our opinions.