Do you believe in life after birth?

[Canadian2point0]

The believers try using simple faith as an argument for God.

.....whereas the atheist tries to explain that they still don't know where we came from.

I agree with you.

[VaLifterScott]

You have it totally backwards in my experience. The believers try using simple faith and examples of every day miracles as an argument for God, whereas the atheist tries to break it down using as big of words and complex thinking as they can, only to reach the conclusion that they still don't know where we came from.

I agree with some of what you say.

Most believers, as you say, and I include myself in this, use faith as "proof" of God. And there is nothing wrong with this. It works for us. We don't need to fall back on philosophical arguments and belittling of atheists to make ourselves feel better about our beliefs or our intellect. Most atheists are simply law abiding morally correct citizens just as most theists are. There are criminals on both sides of aisle.

I agree most atheists, at least the ones I interact with, come to the conclusion that we don't know where we came from. And they are just as correct in believing/admitting this as we are in saying we believe we came from God. The atheists I know do not use big words and complex thinking to try to disprove God - they simply don't care to disprove God because they have no need and, more importantly, no reason to do so. That charge lies with people like Athan90 who apparently liken themselves to the great philosophers.

He clearly believes (and I base this on his posting) that atheists are stupid, are morally bankrupt, and, worse of all, are beneath him. He thinks he is morally superior to the atheist and intellectually superior to most everyone. And he is simply wrong on both counts. I would go as far as to say he is (despite his internet bravado) very insecure and because of his (relatively) new-found belief in God he stops at nothing to make atheists seem like little people who are worthless. He acts like the smoker who has finally managed to quit smoking and then goes on to belittle those who continue to smoke.

So the post of mine to which you replied was more aimed at Christians like Athan90 (who fortunately are relatively few in number at least in my life) rather than Christians as a whole.

[Godfrd824]

God intervening to stop all suffering or early death in the world would go against Him giving us free will.

So it's ok to intervene and as such deny some people free will, but not all people?

[im2small]

Faith isn't an argument for anything.

Yeah it is, you are just too brain washed by the rules of science put together by humans to accept anything that doesn't fit into that model.

[Athanasius90]

I agree with some of what you say.

Most believers, as you say, and I include myself in this, use faith as "proof" of God. And there is nothing wrong with this. It works for us. We don't need to fall back on philosophical arguments and belittling of atheists to make ourselves feel better about our beliefs or our intellect. Most atheists are simply law abiding morally correct citizens just as most theists are. There are criminals on both sides of aisle.....

Where this post references me, this is little more than a wall of abuse which came out of nowhere. And it's not even correct (I've never said atheists are morally bankrupt--you obviously have not grasped my point about morality on atheism), given that I've actually said numerous times I don't believe myself to be intellectually superior in any way. What I have said, is that many atheists think we're beneath them--we're constantly ridiculed, insulted, presumed stupid based on nothing other than the fact we're not atheists. They seem to be interested in little more than rehearsing their favourite tropes and canned responses, despite how educated and informed the theist is. The objective evidence about who insults who, and who is made out to be stupid/idiotic with an ironic failure to engage that persons thought would be severely against your tirade here. Is it objectively true that I make nothing in the way of informed or thoughtful contribution here? What about yourself? Have a look in the mirror. I don't see much in the way of contribution from you, ditto for the rest of the sideliners/hecklers. And it's absolutely not true that I'm reading off a script or repeating a slogan. My thoughts, for the most part, are my own. My own unique ideas which are a synthesis of others. I know of the various theist tropes you mention, and I'm critical of them too and try to help theists repeating them to look at things more thoughtfully.


I try to educate and inform where possible. I'd like very much for challenging and engaging material from the atheists. Which is why I recommend to them slews of better material than what they're used to. It's why I speak highly of academic atheists who are little known outside of their circles, if read by other atheists would make for far more engrossing conversation. But for some reason, this was lost on you when typing up this little canard?

[TrettinR]

Yeah it is, you are just too brain washed by the rules of science put together by humans to accept anything that doesn't fit into that model.

Faith isn't an argument. It's an admission that you believe something without argument, without reason.

we're constantly ridiculed, insulted, presumed stupid based on nothing other than the fact we're not atheists. They seem to be interested in little more than rehearsing their favourite tropes and canned responses, despite how educated and informed the theist is. The objective evidence about who insults who, and who is made out to be stupid/idiotic with an ironic failure to engage that persons thought would be severely against your tirade here.

Oh Athan, you always know how to make me laugh. When constantly bashing atheists doesn't work, play the victim card! I love it!

[guyver79]

Oh, and it is a high level conversation. One of the highest. It isn't like our best and brightest minds have been discussing this for 2500 years.

Don't kid yourself, no one nowadays takes the belief of miracles of a magical Jewish carpenter and god conveniently emptying building before crashing a plane into it seriously.

Brightest minds....Craig, Feser and Cameron.....lulz!!!! Intellectual minnows not taken seriously in academic circles at all.

[VaLifterScott]

Where this post references me, this is little more than a wall of abuse which came out of nowhere. And it's not even correct (I've never said atheists are morally bankrupt--you obviously have not grasped my point about morality on atheism), given that I've actually said numerous times I don't believe myself to be intellectually superior in any way. What I have said, is that many atheists think we're beneath them--we're constantly ridiculed, insulted, presumed stupid based on nothing other than the fact we're not atheists. They seem to be interested in little more than rehearsing their favourite tropes and canned responses, despite how educated and informed the theist is. The objective evidence about who insults who, and who is made out to be stupid/idiotic with an ironic failure to engage that persons thought would be severely against your tirade here. Is it objectively true that I make nothing in the way of informed or thoughtful contribution here? What about yourself? Have a look in the mirror. I don't see much in the way of contribution from you, ditto for the rest of the sideliners/hecklers. And it's absolutely not true that I'm reading off a script or repeating a slogan. My thoughts, for the most part, are my own. My own unique ideas which are a synthesis of others. I know of the various theist tropes you mention, and I'm critical of them too and try to help theists repeating them to look at things more thoughtfully.


I try to educate and inform where possible. I'd like very much for challenging and engaging material from the atheists. Which is why I recommend to them slews of better material than what they're used to. It's why I speak highly of academic atheists who are little known outside of their circles, if read by other atheists would make for far more engrossing conversation. But for some reason, this was lost on you when typing up this little canard?

I'm sure you are trying to educate. The problem is you don't seem to realize just how much of a bullying posture your posting takes. You are very well read, obviously of somewhat above average intelligence, but you don't seem to know how to make arguments without resorting to verbal bullying. And then, when called out on it, you play, as TrettinR writes, the victim card. You simply don't take constructive criticism very well, which is not what I expect of a fellow Christian.

I may not have contributed much here ... yet. But so what? This doesn't make my evaluation of your antics of bullying and bashing of atheists for no good reason untrue.

[TheJimmyRustler]

As others have said the ultimate issue is that this comes down to admitting "I have no idea what will happen for sure, but this is what I happen to think." In other words, there is no reasonable argument to convince you that an afterlife exists, let alone the mythology and religious traditions that accompany it.

[Briangumble]

This story is a really dumb metaphor for the belief in God and life after death. If god is real then why did he create HIV, Ebola, brain eating amoeba's, syphilis, herpes, hepatitis, cancer, and all the other viruses and diseases of the world? Why are there people dying of starvation in 3rd world countries? Why do most people in the world have to suffer in life while a select few get to live fulfilling lives of abundance and wealth, and basically get to have any and everything they want? Why didn't God create every human being to be physically attractive so that people can get by on things that matter like personality and character instead of their looks?

Either god doesn't exist and everything in life is based on luck, or he does exist and he's an evil sadistic *******.

[TheJimmyRustler]

This story is a really dumb metaphor for the belief in God and life after death. If god is real then why did he create HIV, Ebola, brain eating amoeba's, syphilis, herpes, hepatitis, cancer, and all the other viruses and diseases of the world? Why are there people dying of starvation in 3rd world countries? Why do most people in the world have to suffer in life while a select few get to live fulfilling lives of abundance and wealth, and basically get to have any and everything they want? Why didn't God create every human being to be physically attractive so that people can get by on things that matter like personality and character instead of their looks?

Either god doesn't exist and everything in life is based on luck, or he does exist and he's an evil sadistic *******.

Das it, mane. Das it.

World isn't created lovingly, nor are we. Life is harsh and people are naturally cruel. Anyone who thinks otherwise is naive as phuck.

[im2small]

Faith isn't an argument. It's an admission that you believe something without argument, without reason.

And what's wrong with that?

[im2small]

This story is a really dumb metaphor for the belief in God and life after death. If god is real then why did he create HIV, Ebola, brain eating amoeba's, syphilis, herpes, hepatitis, cancer, and all the other viruses and diseases of the world? Why are there people dying of starvation in 3rd world countries? Why do most people in the world have to suffer in life while a select few get to live fulfilling lives of abundance and wealth, and basically get to have any and everything they want? Why didn't God create every human being to be physically attractive so that people can get by on things that matter like personality and character instead of their looks?

Either god doesn't exist and everything in life is based on luck, or he does exist and he's an evil sadistic *******.

God did create that world. Then humans went and ****ed it up.

Wealth is based on money, which was created by humans. Physical beauty was also created by humans, via culture. Try thinking before you type next time, instead of just blaming all the world's problems on God. You're probably the type of person that wants the government to take care of everything wrong in your life too, right?

[Briangumble]

God did create that world. Then humans went and ****ed it up.

Wealth is based on money, which was created by humans. Physical beauty was also created by humans, via culture. Try thinking before you type next time, instead of just blaming all the world's problems on God. You're probably the type of person that wants the government to take care of everything wrong in your life too, right?

Tell me how humans created all the viruses and diseases that I listed. I'm not blaming the worlds problems on god, because I don't believe god exists.

[ODBM]

And what's wrong with that?

There's nothing wrong with admitting that you believe something based on faith alone. The problem comes when these beliefs interfere with the lives of other people, be it education, lawmaking, or whatever else.

[Athanasius90]

I'm sure you are trying to educate. The problem is you don't seem to realize just how much of a bullying posture your posting takes. You are very well read, obviously of somewhat above average intelligence, but you don't seem to know how to make arguments without resorting to verbal bullying. And then, when called out on it, you play, as TrettinR writes, the victim card. You simply don't take constructive criticism very well, which is not what I expect of a fellow Christian.

I may not have contributed much here ... yet. But so what? This doesn't make my evaluation of your antics of bullying and bashing of atheists for no good reason untrue.

Do I bully people who are otherwise nice and respectful, and ensure they're abiding by the principle of charity? Am I attacking people, or the position they adhere to? There's nothing wrong with the latter.

Constructive criticism would be criticism of my intellectual position, criticism aimed to help me improve it with an eye for more productive discussion. Is this constructive criticism?

[guyver79]

Do I bully people who are otherwise nice and respectful, and ensure they're abiding by the principle of charity? Am I attacking people, or the position they adhere to? There's nothing wrong with the latter.

Constructive criticism would be criticism of my intellectual position, criticism aimed to help me improve it with an eye for more productive discussion. Is this constructive criticism?

Besides it's just a lil tickling of the jimmies!

Anyhow, you were just about to mention how the worlds brightest minds have high level conversations on how lots wife didn't listen to the angels and turned into a pillar of salt, so please go on......

[TrettinR]

And what's wrong with that?

If you can believe in something without argument or evidence or reason then you're gullible. Also you said it was an argument, I'm just explaining that it's not.

[Athanasius90]

If you can believe in something without argument or evidence or reason then you're gullible. Also you said it was an argument, I'm just explaining that it's not.

Come on, you just know I've got a gotcha for this one.

[ZenBowman]

Biuriful story, but flawed analogy.

Biuriful because it makes you thankful for mothers, and appreciate the mother-child bond, flawed because it compares post-delivery life (which we can verify exists) to post-death life (which we cannot verify).

[GreatOldOne]

Come on, you just know I've got a gotcha for this one.

It must not be that good because you didn't apply it.

Spoiler!

Athan:


Goo:

[TrettinR]

Come on, you just know I've got a gotcha for this one.

Let me guess, you're going to bring up a properly basic belief then try to shove your god into that category as well?

[im2small]

If you can believe in something without argument or evidence or reason then you're gullible. Also you said it was an argument, I'm just explaining that it's not.

Gullible would be losing my faith in God based on the arguments (or lack there-of) that you have put forth in this thread.

[ODBM]

Gullible would be losing my faith in God based on the arguments (or lack there-of) that you have put forth in this thread.

Sye, is that you bro?

[Godfrd824]

Gullible would be losing my faith in God based on the arguments (or lack there-of) that you have put forth in this thread.

Let me put it to you like this, I cannot disprove your god, but I can also not disprove that there are invisible midgets break dancing on my living room ceiling. Common sense dictates that there are no invisible midgets break dancing on my ceiling, as I have no way of verifying that they're there, this is where science comes in. In 20 years we might have a way to detect these break dancing midgets, I will then concede to their existence. The exact same is true of your god, difference is, as we advance technologically more and more of what you believe is proven to be untrue. As such, common sense would dictate that your god doesn't exist, because we cannot verify that this god is, but we can verify that many of the things you believe in are not.

[TrettinR]

Gullible would be losing my faith in God based on the arguments (or lack there-of) that you have put forth in this thread.

Do you believe in everything until you're given sufficient reason not to? If so you'd have a lot of contradictory beliefs.

So we agree that faith isn't an argument for anything?

Sye, is that you bro?

Ha!

[boseador]

Let me put it to you like this, I cannot disprove your god, but I can also not disprove that there are invisible midgets break dancing on my living room ceiling. Common sense dictates that there are no invisible midgets break dancing on my ceiling, as I have no way of verifying that they're there, this is where science comes in. In 20 years we might have a way to detect these break dancing midgets, I will then concede to their existence. The exact same is true of your god, difference is, as we advance technologically more and more of what you believe is proven to be untrue. As such, common sense would dictate that your god doesn't exist, because we cannot verify that this god is, but we can verify that many of the things you believe in are not.

Are these midgets physical? If they are physical, but invisible, then we can detect them on your ceiling. If they are not physical, then why call them midgets? What do they have in common with the midgets we see every day if they have no physical body? What makes them midgets if midget means a very small person?

[Godfrd824]

Are these midgets physical? If they are physical, but invisible, then we can detect them on your ceiling. If they are not physical, then why call them midgets? What do they have in common with the midgets we see every day if they have no physical body? What makes them midgets if midget means a very small person?

I have faith in that they're midgets, if you open up your heart, and truly seek the answer to your question, these midgets will reveal themselves to you.

[boseador]

I have faith in that they're midgets, if you open up your heart, and truly seek the answer to your question, these midgets will reveal themselves to you.

Lol. Now can you give me a serious response? I think I have found a major error in your reasoning.

[Godfrd824]

Lol. Now can you give me a serious response? I think I have found a major error in your reasoning.

The midgets are completely physical, but they also exist in a higher plane of existence, they live outside of time and space, but at the same time they can interact within the confines of our universe. They also look like midgets, not that I've ever seen them, but an old book states this, and I believe it completely.