Quick questions on the differences, between DUP and RTS. Besides being RPE and Rep Percentages, both these programs seem to be formulated the same way. What am I missing here?
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Thread: RTS vs DUP
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05-20-2015, 01:57 PM #1
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RTS vs DUP
Current Maxes 6/10/2015 and End of year Goals
Bench 260/300 *RTS CREW*
Squat 345/405 *Bombed First Meet Crew*
Dead 440/500
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05-20-2015, 02:06 PM #2
RTS is not a program. DUP is not a program. You can have DUP without RPE stuff, and RPE stuff without a DUP format.
You can have a linear periodization based RTS style program, and a % based DUP program.
You're missing quite a bit, read lots of Mike Ts stuff on his RTS site, and look to guys like Zourdous for DUP info.YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/user/NorthStrongSC
Main Training Log: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=155303583
After seeing a hard workout you may want to complain and want others to pity you for the work you have to do. Your mom will pity you. Your girl will pity you. I may pity you, but your competition will not pity you. They will step on you, walk over you and spit on you. � Boris Sheiko
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05-20-2015, 02:12 PM #3
- Join Date: May 2014
- Location: Stuttgart, Baden-Wurtenburg, Germany
- Posts: 2,483
- Rep Power: 4078
Thanks for the Reply, I get my coaching from mike, and he is in the process of moving so thought I would post it here for a quick response. The Program that he sends me has a lot of frequency, some form of benching 4x squaring 4x deadlifting 2x a week. From what I have gathered from reading a lot of DUP type stuff is that its frequency with raging amounts of volume and intensity. Mike sends me the same kind of program with RPE based percentages.
Current Maxes 6/10/2015 and End of year Goals
Bench 260/300 *RTS CREW*
Squat 345/405 *Bombed First Meet Crew*
Dead 440/500
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05-20-2015, 02:44 PM #4
Yeah RTS can certainly be a DUP type thing, but DUP is not necessarily high or low volume, pretty much it is just that each day of the week for a given lift will be trained a bit differently as far as rep range / intensity goes (speed, strength, and repetition seems to be common).
It's like Mike says, RTS is like a scope to use on a rifle, it's not a program in and of itself.YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/user/NorthStrongSC
Main Training Log: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=155303583
After seeing a hard workout you may want to complain and want others to pity you for the work you have to do. Your mom will pity you. Your girl will pity you. I may pity you, but your competition will not pity you. They will step on you, walk over you and spit on you. � Boris Sheiko
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05-20-2015, 02:57 PM #5
Reactive Training Systems (RTS) is a company. Their purpose/methods are described on their site.
Our Purpose
At Reactive Training Systems, we believe in making ourselves better and helping you to do the same. We are driven to provide top-tier training information, techniques, and products to help athletes to always get stronger, always get better, and always build momentum! RTS is all about optimizing your training so that it’s the most effective training possible given the time and resources you have available. This is not a national system designed to churn through hundreds of athletes to develop one or two champions. This is about helping every lifter get as strong as he/she possibly can.
The Story
I’m Mike Tuchscherer, the founder of Reactive Training Systems. RTS began back in 2005 when I was a cadet at the US Air Force Academy. I was the cadet-in-charge of the team and the de facto coach of all the other less experienced members. I knew how to train myself, and I getting pretty good at listening to my body and auto-regulating training, but I had no idea how to teach the other guys on the team the same thing. All the research I did indicated that it’s something that you just had to figure out and it would take you ten years of hard training to do it.
TEN YEARS!
Well, clearly that wasn’t going to be very helpful. So I set out to understand better what I was doing myself as well as what other successful auto-regulators have done in the past. Fortunately I’m a systems oriented guy, so I took all that I had learned and developed it into a process that I could teach to my lifters. The result was that we had them auto-regulating their training in about one third the time! And they had the strength to back it up too as everyone on the team set lifetime PR’s after implementation.
In the years since then, we’ve gathered more information, continued to tweak things and develop the system. We continue to get more and more at the heart of what makes people strong. We’ve produced world champions, world record holders, dozens of national champions, and so on. But probably the most important thing is that in just about every case, we help people achieve a PR (personal record). That means they are better than they’ve ever been before and THAT is something that really matters.1372 @ 205
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05-20-2015, 07:54 PM #6
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05-20-2015, 08:30 PM #7
You're not missing anything. If programs were comparable to pharmaceuticals, then DUP is like the generic version of RTS. Its technically the same thing, but its the cheaper, simpler version. RTS has a lot of complex ideas that go into being able to run it correct; RPE, auto regulation, fatigue percentages, variations of the major lifts, etc. etc. DUP is pretty straight forward, you do the same exercises each workout and the same number of sets, you just change the number of reps. RTS is likely to be more suitable to the advanced lifter, but DUP is easier to not **** up.
Strong, aesthetic crew.
My Definitely Not 5/3/1 Log: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=167683321&p=1366691651#post1366691651
Current gym total: 1250@ 218. Goal: 1400 by the end of 2015.
Music to lift heavy stuff: Asking Alexandria, We Came as Romans, Bring Me the Horizon, Jamie's Elsewhere
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05-21-2015, 10:10 AM #8
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05-21-2015, 11:00 AM #9
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05-21-2015, 04:49 PM #10
Just looking at the generalized intermediate program, bench is done at 4's, 5's, and 6's in week one, 5's, 3's, 5's, and 7's week two, and 3's, 4's, and 8's week three. That seems to be in the spirit of DUP where volume is kept high by rotating through different rep schemes. I realize that RTS also rotates through lift variations and keeps the reps lower than many DUP setups; but the spirit of both programs seems to be quite similar. If you feel otherwise, I would love to hear why.
Strong, aesthetic crew.
My Definitely Not 5/3/1 Log: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=167683321&p=1366691651#post1366691651
Current gym total: 1250@ 218. Goal: 1400 by the end of 2015.
Music to lift heavy stuff: Asking Alexandria, We Came as Romans, Bring Me the Horizon, Jamie's Elsewhere
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05-21-2015, 08:02 PM #11
1.RTS is Mike Tuchscherer's brand and his way of programming. DUP is a type of periodization where any coach can use the tools available to design their own way of programming. They can be very similar or very different depending on who is designing.
2.DUP is not the cheaper, simpler version of RTS. DUP can be as simple or complex as you want to make it. And RTS can be as simple and as complex as Mike T wants to make it. For example, a typical protocol Mike T might give on a deload day would look like this:
Squat - Work up to x4@9 No Drop Sets
That is pretty freakin' simple.
3. You most definitely do not have to do the same number of sets each session with DUP. You can if you want to program it that way, but it is not a requirement and most of the time you do not see it that way. For example taking what Bryce Lewis of The Strength Athlete programmed for me this week on squats:
Session 1: 3x5
Session 2: 4x3 followed by 4x2
No where near the same sets. And as you notice, for session 2 I have 2 different rep protocols I have to hit at 2 different intensities. This is a more complex approach to DUP that can be used.
4. RTS is not designed for a beginner because a beginner can't accurately judge their RPE. A beginner should stick with a program that isn't auto-regulated but it is still good for them to practice rating their RPE each set so they can learn for the future. RTS is thus good for intermediates/advanced that have practice with rating their sets with a RPE. DUP can be used by anyone. Like I said, it simply depends on how you program it. You can program it for a beginner, intermediate or advanced. You can program it for 2x frequency, 3x, 4x, whatever. You can program it for only the competition lifts or to include assistance work to hit specific weaknesses.1372 @ 205
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05-22-2015, 07:19 AM #12
Stop reading forums and start reading stuff like this:
http://diginole.lib.fsu.edu/cgi/view...17&context=etd"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats."
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05-22-2015, 01:41 PM #13Strong, aesthetic crew.
My Definitely Not 5/3/1 Log: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=167683321&p=1366691651#post1366691651
Current gym total: 1250@ 218. Goal: 1400 by the end of 2015.
Music to lift heavy stuff: Asking Alexandria, We Came as Romans, Bring Me the Horizon, Jamie's Elsewhere
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05-22-2015, 02:52 PM #14
You make all fair points. My point by RTS being more complex than DUP was that RTS involves more variables than DUP does, such as multiple lift variations, RPE, fatigue %'s, etc. More variables means that more has to be accounted for in properly programming a RTS mesocycle. Not to mention, due to the RPE system what constitutes a "9" on the scale is going to vary immensely depending in effect. On a good day, a 9 is going to be a lot more stressful to your system than it is on a bad day. 9's at the beginning of the workout are going to be a lot more stressful than 9's at the end of the workout. All of this has to be accounted for. Truth be told, I got the RPE method down when I tried running it and I still didn't feel comfortable. I think we both can agree that it is a system that is made for the advanced of the advanced.
DUP on the other hand, isn't nearly as difficult to set up in my opinion. You aren't doing a different variation of the movement each day and the volume and intensity for each session is already predetermined. This is what I mean by generic, although DUP can be individualized to each lifter; it has much more "cookie-cutter, plug and chug" appeal to it. So while, yes, both programs can be tailored to different experience levels, but I think DUP is much more easily tailored program.
As far as # of sets, I wasn't saying you have to do the same number of sets for each workout. In fact, I strongly believe that you shouldn't be doing the same number of sets. But this just seems to be my impression from Zordos/Norton's programs; the number of sets is more or less an afterthought. 6x4 is always 6x4 and 4x8 is always 4x8. How I set up my current training, I will do 5x8 and 3x4's one week, then do 6x4's and 2x8's (with down sets) the next week.
As far as your last point, you are right, there is no one way to do DUP. But I think the vast majority of lifters identify DUP with Mike Zordos and Layne Norton; so for me to say that something is DUP it has to at least mimic the set up that they use. DUP, at least in my opinion, means working each competition lift every session at a different intensity with very little accessory work. My current training is more like a traditional upper/lower split with varying rep x set schemes for the competition lift and then high volume weak point training and "bodybuilding" accessory work. Since this looks nothing like the programs I have seen from Zordos or Layne Norton, I don't call it DUP.Strong, aesthetic crew.
My Definitely Not 5/3/1 Log: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=167683321&p=1366691651#post1366691651
Current gym total: 1250@ 218. Goal: 1400 by the end of 2015.
Music to lift heavy stuff: Asking Alexandria, We Came as Romans, Bring Me the Horizon, Jamie's Elsewhere
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05-22-2015, 05:00 PM #15
1. You can do multiple lift variations with DUP. You can do RPE with DUP. You can do fatigue %s with DUP. You can do AMRAP sets with DUP. You can do weekly squat max with DUP. You can do the competition lifts every session with RTS.
2. RTS is not built for the advanced of the advanced. Mike Tuchscherer even says it himself. He created RTS as a way to bridge the gap between beginners and advanced. He created a set of tools to allow intermediate lifters to train more like advanced lifters and become advanced themselves.
3. Once again, you can do variations with DUP. Volume and intensity is not predetermined each session with DUP. Once again, you can do something like an AMRAP set in a session which means volume is not predetermined. You can do a squat max session which means intensity is not predetermined. You can work up to a 9 RPE on deadlift after squats which means once again intensity is not predetermined.
4. Which Dr. Zourdos programs have you seen? Which Layne Norton programs have you seen? You know Layne doesn't do his own programming, right? Ben Esgro does his programming. And they vary sets throughout the week, month, year. Ben also has Layne do AMRAP sets almost every week which goes back to the whole point I made earlier how DUP is not predetermined volume.
5. Vast majority of lifters do not understand programming. If they identify DUP with 1 Dr. Zourdos research study and Layne Norton's training that is not written by Layne Norton, then they are not very smart. The issue here is that you are using your opinion. Your opinion doesn't matter. And some parts of your opinions are wrong. DUP was around before Dr. Zourdos and Layne Norton even started using it. 1 of the first great coaches that comes to mind is Boris Sheiko. A lot of his programs posted online use the methodologies behind DUP.1372 @ 205
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05-24-2015, 08:38 AM #16
1. RPE with DUP is pretty much RTS, is it not? Which brings me back to my very first point, DUP is a more generic version of RTS.
2. Fair point, I suppose I am wrong on that front then.
3. You can do variations with any program. You could do 5/3/1 where you hit all three weeks worth of workouts in the same week. You could do DUP where you hit all three different intensities in the same workout. But at what point do you cease to call a variation of DUP, DUP? DUP where you hit a daily max has a name... its called the Bulgarian system.
4. Right, and they all follow the same pattern of all three powerlifts each day, with each trained for a different rep # or quality; IE 8/6/4 or strength/power/hypertrophy. This 3day/week set up with each powerlift hit each day is largely what is associated with DUP. And AMRAP sets are an entirely different type of training then doing as many sets as possible. With AMRAP sets, Layne is still doing mostly a fixed volume with a small variable component at the end. With fatigue %'s, only the first set is fixed. You could do as many as 10 sets. Or as few as 2. Much bigger difference in variation.
5. Did Sheiko call his programming DUP? If so I stand corrected, but otherwise the term in of itself is largely associated with Zourdos. Sure he didn't actually invent anything as far as programming goes, but that is what people identify the term with.Strong, aesthetic crew.
My Definitely Not 5/3/1 Log: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=167683321&p=1366691651#post1366691651
Current gym total: 1250@ 218. Goal: 1400 by the end of 2015.
Music to lift heavy stuff: Asking Alexandria, We Came as Romans, Bring Me the Horizon, Jamie's Elsewhere
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05-24-2015, 04:16 PM #17
1. You claimed that RTS is some super complex program designed for the advanced of the advanced lifter and that DUP is a cookie-cutter style simple program. Now you are claiming that simply adding RPE to a DUP program makes it RTS? Isn't that a bit contradictory?
3. It ceases to be DUP when it doesn't fit the parameters that makes a program DUP. DUP where you hit a daily max squat is not The Bulgarian System. And I wasn't talking about daily max squatting. I was talking about weekly max squatting. You still have 1 or more training sessions based on hypertrophy and/or power throughout the week but the last session of the week you work up to a max with back off volume.
4. Not at all. Dr. Zourdos, Dr. Layne Norton and Ben Esgro do not program only 3 training sessions per week programs where you hit all 3 powerlifts each session. That is so completely wrong. You also don't have to do fatigue %s with RTS, that is only 1 type of protocol. You can fix volume ahead of time by giving a protocol with only 1 down set or whatever specific number. You can also control volume based on your daily TRAC score to achieve the level of fatigue desirable.
5. Sheiko is Russian, he may not even know what the acronym DUP stands for or what it means. They have their own language and not everything transfers. Go look at Sheiko's programs though. Go read the topics on his forum. Here is just a small snippet from a topic on Weekly Loading.
Boris states that monotonous training loads, even more so the more frequently used, the faster the body gets used to them and the less effective they become for the development of the athlete. Thus, load variability is one of the most important principles in the construction of the training process. Variability is the basis for stable progress.1372 @ 205
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05-24-2015, 09:55 PM #18
1. How is that contradictory? I stated from the beginning that RTS and DUP are very similar programs, but that RTS is a more complex version due to the inclusion of RPE and fatigue %'s. You don't "just" add RPE's to a program without changing a significant portion of how it is programmed.
3. Right, so we now agree that the parameters of DUP are defined as 3 or more sessions per power lift a week with each session training a different quality? Of course there are numerous ways to vary training within those parameters yes, but the basic setup of training the power lifts with >3 frequency/week with each session training a different quality is one that a majority of non-novices should be able to easily setup and run. Then again, I suppose what I think the majority of lifters should be capable of figuring out is often far too optimistic.
4. I've been watching Layne's training videos for awhile now and that is how his training set up. And from what I have seen as far as Zourdos's programs, that is his set up as well. I did see a video of Ben Esgro state that he benches every single day using the principles of DUP (the merits of which I would dispute), but that is still in the spirt of hitting only the competition lifts for at least 3 days a week at a different intensity each day. If you can show me a program of Zourdos which takes a different setup such as only 1 or 2 of the power lifts per day and a higher focus on accessories or where the intensities are less varied, then I will stand corrected.
5. That sounds a lot like the basic principle behind nearly every powerlifting program I have ever seen. I have read through Sheiko's programs. The variance in load in Sheiko's programs is tiny compared to the variance in load in the majority of DUP programs I have seen. For example, program #31 for the first week, on Monday bench press is worked up to an intensity of 85%. On Wednesday, bench press is worked up to an intensity of 85%. On Friday, Bench Press is worked up to an intensity of 80%. The %'s vary more from one week to the next rather then within the same week; which isn't exactly in the spirit of DUP at all.Strong, aesthetic crew.
My Definitely Not 5/3/1 Log: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=167683321&p=1366691651#post1366691651
Current gym total: 1250@ 218. Goal: 1400 by the end of 2015.
Music to lift heavy stuff: Asking Alexandria, We Came as Romans, Bring Me the Horizon, Jamie's Elsewhere
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05-25-2015, 05:29 AM #19
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05-25-2015, 06:45 AM #20
These statements are simply incorrect. And I don't think you are getting it. As hamburgertrain mentioned, I suggest you re-read this http://diginole.lib.fsu.edu/cgi/view...17&context=etd specifically starting at the bottom of page 31. You can watch this as well
And while I do have some of Dr. Zourdos' programs on my computer, including some from 5+ years ago, I will not be posting any of them on the Internet for all to see. I will gladly share my own programming on here, which I already have in another DUP thread. But I'm sure you will say that the program isn't considered DUP since it doesn't follow your incorrect interpretation of DUP. So I guess there is no point in continuing this discussion any further.1372 @ 205
USAPL Senior International Coach & IPF Cat II Referee
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05-25-2015, 11:39 AM #21
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05-25-2015, 12:08 PM #22Strong, aesthetic crew.
My Definitely Not 5/3/1 Log: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=167683321&p=1366691651#post1366691651
Current gym total: 1250@ 218. Goal: 1400 by the end of 2015.
Music to lift heavy stuff: Asking Alexandria, We Came as Romans, Bring Me the Horizon, Jamie's Elsewhere
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05-25-2015, 12:38 PM #23
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05-25-2015, 01:01 PM #24Strong, aesthetic crew.
My Definitely Not 5/3/1 Log: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=167683321&p=1366691651#post1366691651
Current gym total: 1250@ 218. Goal: 1400 by the end of 2015.
Music to lift heavy stuff: Asking Alexandria, We Came as Romans, Bring Me the Horizon, Jamie's Elsewhere
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05-25-2015, 01:20 PM #25
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05-25-2015, 08:19 PM #26
-___-, whatever I'm done with debates about terminology. Program your **** however you like with whatever understanding of DUP/WUP you have. I have read enough into DUP to understand it enough to apply elements of it to my own training while still keeping elements that worked well from other programs I have run. Do I call it DUP? No. Would you call it DUP? Be my guest.
Strong, aesthetic crew.
My Definitely Not 5/3/1 Log: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=167683321&p=1366691651#post1366691651
Current gym total: 1250@ 218. Goal: 1400 by the end of 2015.
Music to lift heavy stuff: Asking Alexandria, We Came as Romans, Bring Me the Horizon, Jamie's Elsewhere
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05-25-2015, 08:30 PM #27
have you read this?
http://jtsstrength.com/articles/2014...initive-guide/
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05-25-2015, 08:59 PM #28
Its one of the better articles I've read. But this series: http://www.jtsstrength.com/articles/...zation-part-1/ and http://www.jtsstrength.com/articles/...zation-part-2/ is my programming bible and I force myself to reread it at least once a month if not more frequently to ensure I keep my training on track.
But my interpretation is, undulating periodization is an element of periodization as a whole; daily undulating periodization is an actual program. Programs can have variations (ever read the Beyond 5/3/1 book?) of course, but they still have a concrete form. Whereas undulating periodization is an abstract idea, much like linear periodization or progressive overload. Making a program with undulation (which as the article states, is EVERY program) doesn't automatically make it DUP. If this is an inaccurate assessment, fantastic. But make sure you go tell everyone on BB.com with a log labeled "so and so's DUP log" before you tell me because they seem to be under the impression that DUP is a program or they wouldn't call their training "DUP."
Also, if you want to critique my ability to comprehend and utilize periodization in my programming, feel free to do so: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=167601511 I am more than open to suggestions.Strong, aesthetic crew.
My Definitely Not 5/3/1 Log: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=167683321&p=1366691651#post1366691651
Current gym total: 1250@ 218. Goal: 1400 by the end of 2015.
Music to lift heavy stuff: Asking Alexandria, We Came as Romans, Bring Me the Horizon, Jamie's Elsewhere
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05-26-2015, 06:27 AM #29
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05-26-2015, 06:36 AM #30
Yes, comparing the two, HPS ended up being better from what I recall. H and S days tend to be more volume and taxing, so P days are almost like active recovery. Having H into S, some people are still left a bit taxed from the H day. Having P in the middle breaks that up and gives you a bit more time to recoup.
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