Lower Back Stretches for Squat/Deads

[kpeaceoutbye]

Hey guys,

So I always start any leg day/deadlift day with the Limber 11 routine... which helps me a lot. But that's all I do before squats/deads. Now I warm-up first with 135x8 on squats and my lower back just seems super tight even though my legs/groin/hip is stretched out from limber 11. I slap on 225x4 for my next set and it starts to loosen up.

Same with deads. I eventually get loosened up after warming up, but I feel that I should be doing something on top of limber 11 for my lower back to get rid of this tightness. Do you guys have any stretches or routines you do to help out??

[thetruthcomes]

Roll foam bro.

(srs)

[TheOrb87]

Mostly a lot of yoga poses definitely help for lower back tightness. Check out these exercises:
http://breakingmuscle.com/yoga/heal-...e-5-yoga-poses

[Trolltongue]

Riddle me this, why is it you want a loose and limber lower back when you're preparing to put hundreds of pound on your back or in your hands, which you will need to stabilize with a rock hard lower back lest you crumple to the ground?

[kpeaceoutbye]

Roll foam bro.

(srs)

Yeah, I guess I should just foam roll the lower back too. Just a few slow passes like x10 with the roller down on the lower back?

Riddle me this, why is it you want a loose and limber lower back when you're preparing to put hundreds of pound on your back or in your hands, which you will need to stabilize with a rock hard lower back lest you crumple to the ground?

I want my back to feel stretched out and flexible before lifting, not really aching or feeling too tight when I squat (which I can feel even only tiny weight @ 135 pounds).

[sirwazzles]

I want my back to feel stretched out and flexible before lifting, not really aching or feeling too tight when I squat (which I can feel even only tiny weight @ 135 pounds).

That's understandable. A good rule of thumb though is to do your serious static stretching at times other than right before you lift. Hard static stretching immediately before lifting or between sets decreases strength, and like Trolltongue alluded too, probably isn't wise to do at the time when you want tightness and stability.

[308smk]

Mobilize your hip flexors and hamstrings, and roll out your upper back and Tspine. Leave your lower back tight.

Lumbar spine needs to remain stable, relaxing all the muscles surrounding it is a good way to blow a disc.

[isaku900]

Riddle me this, why is it you want a loose and limber lower back when you're preparing to put hundreds of pound on your back or in your hands, which you will need to stabilize with a rock hard lower back lest you crumple to the ground?

fuarking this.

Mobilize your hip flexors and hamstrings, and roll out your upper back and Tspine. Leave your lower back tight.

Lumbar spine needs to remain stable, relaxing all the muscles surrounding it is a good way to blow a disc.

and this.

Not everything needs to be flexible.

[bennmuz]

Don't roll your lower back, that's retarded.

Have a look at some of Chris Duffins squat & deadlift warm up videos on YouTube. These helped ne a lot!

[kaleida]

Yeah, I guess I should just foam roll the lower back too. Just a few slow passes like x10 with the roller down on the lower back?



I want my back to feel stretched out and flexible before lifting, not really aching or feeling too tight when I squat (which I can feel even only tiny weight @ 135 pounds).

Personally I find that the foam roller is too large and too flat for this area - QLs were my main target and they are very small and very deep, under the erectors. I used a tennis ball (lying on a carpeted floor with a tennis ball in the lower back, next to my spine, not on top of the spine, shifting around to find tender spots). Eventually I found that the tennis ball was too large to get some trigger points that are right next to a bone, so at some point I switched to a jacknobber which is about $7 on amazon. Just like the tennis ball, the jacknobber should put pressure on muscles, not bone.

As for why I released this area even though the spine should be solid and tight during a deadlift, that's actually a really good question. For me the answer has two parts ...
1) The "oh no I just released my QLs for the first time and now they feel like a limp noodle" phase is temporary, so in general I don't let that stop me from releasing muscles if I believe there will be a benefit from releasing them. (It does affect when I release them, though: not near a meet.)
2) Releasing QLs was one part of what I needed to do to fix my pelvic alignment, and fixing pelvic alignment had many benefits for me. Tight QLs were contributing to anterior pelvic tilt and a misaligned SI joint on me. Fixing my pelvic alignment fixed my knee pain, hip pain, and lower back pain. It increased my work capacity because my knees, hips, and back stopped hurting during volume increases. It helped me get past a plateau - for a long time I was stuck because the amount of volume that triggered pain was less than the amount of volume I needed to make progress. With better pelvic alignment I increased my volume pain-free and started making PRs again. Better pelvic alignment also helped me with better glute activation.

Like you, I started releasing muscles in my hips and made a lot of good progress there. I eventually reached a point where my hip muscles were OK with better pelvic alignment and my QLs weren't - and in that state there is pain, my QLs' way of saying "me next!" - so I released QLs too and got rid of that pain. I also needed to release my iliopsoas, and limber 11 doesn't cover that either.

I do think it's very important to time this stuff so I'm not doing it near a meet. No one wants to be dealing with temporary muscle activation issues in a meet. I also wouldn't want to deal with that "some muscles are OK with new pelvic alignment and some aren't" phase during a meet either - for me that phase had intermittent pain and muscle spasms in the muscles that needed to be released next - not a good thing to mix with max attempts. A nice long off-season is a good time for this stuff.



Edit: this book is a good resource for trigger point release. It helped me a lot when I was working on my pelvic alignment. It covers the whole body. http://www.amazon.com/Trigger-Point-...dp_ob_title_bk

[paulosantos0922]

Is your back tight later on in the day or when you do something else? I would do some light warm-ups to loosen up your back first, such as hypers, then do the limber 11. The. Do a couple of sets with the bar to warm up. Some guys even put some icy hot or something simar on their lower back before they start. My lower back tightens up all the time to the point where I have a hard time running, so I have to really take care of my back.

[Ownster8932]

So after reading this thread, I decided to go through my whole normal mobility/foam rolling/massage stick routine pre-workout aside from foam rolling my lower back. My form wasn't affected (I didn't get any buttwink), but I could definitely feel my lower back slightly lit up (I mean it wasn't like it was on fire, but I could definitely feel it muscularly). If I foam roll beforehand, my lower back does not get lit up and feels just like the rest of my muscles. Granted, it was only a squat day yesterday. Tomorrow is a squat/DL day, so I will try it again. Not sure if it's a good thing if I feel my lower back more than usual by not foam rolling beforehand. I do think it could help with DLs in terms of keeping my lower back more rigid, but it also seems like it could be more susceptible to injury because it is 'tight' (I guess?).

[kaleida]

So after reading this thread, I decided to go through my whole normal mobility/foam rolling/massage stick routine pre-workout aside from foam rolling my lower back. My form wasn't affected (I didn't get any buttwink), but I could definitely feel my lower back slightly lit up (I mean it wasn't like it was on fire, but I could definitely feel it muscularly). If I foam roll beforehand, my lower back does not get lit up and feels just like the rest of my muscles. Granted, it was only a squat day yesterday. Tomorrow is a squat/DL day, so I will try it again. Not sure if it's a good thing if I feel my lower back more than usual by not foam rolling beforehand. I do think it could help with DLs in terms of keeping my lower back more rigid, but it also seems like it could be more susceptible to injury because it is 'tight' (I guess?).

Personally, I try to spend as little time as possible in a state where a muscle feels "lit up" and unhappy (if we are thinking about the same thing)...I like to fix that feeling as soon as I can.

One thing I didn't write above is that my QLs started to feel "lit up" two weeks before my last meet. I thought I had given myself enough time to finish all lower body trigger point release before the meet, and I had postponed that muscle, thinking I might not need to release it at all, but eventually it did ask for help. Knowing that a muscle usually goes very limp the first time I release it, and knowing that the QLs are so important in squat and deadlift, I waited until after the meet to do trigger point release on my QLs and lower back. I knew that was a risk (doing max attempts with a major muscle in an unhappy state). I went to the meet anyway. Right after a long but successful squat grinder I had a QL spasm that involuntarily ripped my torso out from under the bar, and the bar fell on the safeties behind me. Could have been much worse but I got lucky...no one was hurt. I also got a major deadlift PR in that meet (not a grinder). So it was a mixed bag. After the meet I released my QLs and psoas (both of those stabilize the lower spine) they went limp as expected and I felt like a ragdoll for a week or two...then they bounced back as I expected and I felt suddenly stable again. I beat my meet deadlift in the gym very soon after my QLs and psoas bounced back. I have not experienced a single QL spasm or unstable lift since they bounced back.

Anyway, the point of this story is...I don't regret releasing my lower back at all...and if you wanted to release yours you wouldn't be alone The only thing I would do differently if I could do it again would be timing (finishing that project more thoroughly before the meet).

[Daemonium]

Riddle me this, why is it you want a loose and limber lower back when you're preparing to put hundreds of pound on your back or in your hands, which you will need to stabilize with a rock hard lower back lest you crumple to the ground?

Mobilize your hip flexors and hamstrings, and roll out your upper back and Tspine. Leave your lower back tight.

Lumbar spine needs to remain stable, relaxing all the muscles surrounding it is a good way to blow a disc.

THESE. Your lumbar spine needs to be STABLE not MOBILE.

I'll still briefly roll out my lower back briefly before I start doing more specific activation exercises, but mainly just to warm it up. If your backs all knotted up I'd recommend dealing with that when you're not about to put a huge load on your spine.

[Anthony21]

THESE. Your lumbar spine needs to be STABLE not MOBILE.

I'll still briefly roll out my lower back briefly before I start doing more specific activation exercises, but mainly just to warm it up. If your backs all knotted up I'd recommend dealing with that when you're not about to put a huge load on your spine.

I've always been under the impression to never roll your lower back.

I rather do some cat/camel to get my lower back warmed up along with some bird dogs.

[HamburgerTrain]

Jesus f*cking Christ guys. The negative research on foam rolling is barely applicable for us (if it applies to you , the your training sucks). Plus, a simple fact that no one really thinks about:

Does foam rolling make you feel better? If it does, then f*ck science. I static stretch before I train. And I foam roll. Those are two facets of a 30 minute warm-up. I do all of this because it makes me feel tremendously better when I train. So, how is that wrong?

You don't want a loose muscle to support hundreds of pounds on your back? Contracting muscle is like a punching fist. You need space and distance to land with any power. Muscle works the same way. Cramped up, tight muscles usually suggest dehydration. Two dehydrated sliding surfaces rubbing together is a major cause of aches and pains. So, create some space and bust that $hit up.

OP, try a roller. If it feels good keep using it. Also, look into egoscue methods. Those are awesome.

[isaku900]

Cramped up, tight muscles usually suggest dehydration. Two dehydrated sliding surfaces rubbing together is a major cause of aches and pains. So, create some space and bust that $hit up.

wouldn't hydration be good too

[HamburgerTrain]

wouldn't hydration be good too

Thats what I was getting at as well. We can incur a kind of "spot specific" dehydration if enough sliding surface issues exist. So, even if you are adequately hydrated, a really f*cked up spot is going to need some outside intervention beyond basic calisthenics.

[isaku900]

Thats what I was getting at as well. We can incur a kind of "spot specific" dehydration if enough sliding surface issues exist. So, even if you are adequately hydrated, a really f*cked up spot is going to need some outside intervention beyond basic calisthenics.

true, and I would absolutely tell someone to address that, or address it myself. Wouldn't necessarily recommend it pre-workout if you're not experiencing that tightness tho. i.e. absolutely stretch, roll, lax ball, etc, warmup spot areas as needed, not necessarily blanket proscription do xyz every damn time.
edit: didn't mean to sound so confrontational.

[HamburgerTrain]

true, and I would absolutely tell someone to address that, or address it myself. Wouldn't necessarily recommend it pre-workout if you're not experiencing that tightness tho. i.e. absolutely stretch, roll, lax ball, etc, warmup spot areas as needed, not necessarily blanket proscription do xyz every damn time.
edit: didn't mean to sound so confrontational.

Absolutely agree there. People just yelling things like "Roll it!" is just as bad as people yelling "Don't ever roll anything!" I think a lot of things like what you mentioned get lost in translation on the interwebs.

[isaku900]

Absolutely agree there. People just yelling things like "Roll it!" is just as bad as people yelling "Don't ever roll anything!" I think a lot of things like what you mentioned get lost in translation on the interwebs.

d'aww. agreement online.

[Rags85]

d'aww. agreement online.

Ok, get a room you two.

The negative research on foam rolling is barely applicable for us (if it applies to you , the your training sucks)

What research are you referring to?

[Daemonium]

I've always been under the impression to never roll your lower back.

I rather do some cat/camel to get my lower back warmed up along with some bird dogs.

I do bird dogs usually for activation after, but still like to foam roll my back. Obviously 2 different trains of thought here, but I won't usually mash it unless I have a knot or some noticeable pain. I usually Foam roll -> Static stretch -> Dynamic stretches (if applicable) -> activation/'prehab' exercises. I do really like Donnie Thompsons hip/lower back exercises/stretches.

Absolutely agree there. People just yelling things like "Roll it!" is just as bad as people yelling "Don't ever roll anything!" I think a lot of things like what you mentioned get lost in translation on the interwebs.

Good to see you posting again Mike

true, and I would absolutely tell someone to address that, or address it myself. Wouldn't necessarily recommend it pre-workout if you're not experiencing that tightness tho. i.e. absolutely stretch, roll, lax ball, etc, warmup spot areas as needed, not necessarily blanket proscription do xyz every damn time.
edit: didn't mean to sound so confrontational.

Also a really good point^ listen to your body.

[HamburgerTrain]

Ok, get a room you two.




What research are you referring to?

Just the stuff saying it isnt beneficial or that it even decreases markers of performance. But, 99% of the time, the subject go right from rolling to what ever the testing variable is. If you are rolling and then immediately hoping under your heaviest squat of the day, then that is just really $hitty programming. I'd love to see a study where someone rolled, then performed a general dynamic warm-up for 15-20 minutes, then hoped into training. I am willing to bet those results would be different than most of the research out there now.


Edit: sorry, I am typing this assuming people know the laxity effect of soft tissue work only lasts for about 5 minutes.

[kaleida]

Just the stuff saying it isnt beneficial or that it even decreases markers of performance. But, 99% of the time, the subject go right from rolling to what ever the testing variable is. If you are rolling and then immediately hoping under your heaviest squat of the day, then that is just really $hitty programming. I'd love to see a study where someone rolled, then performed a general dynamic warm-up for 15-20 minutes, then hoped into training. I am willing to bet those results would be different than most of the research out there now.

When I release a muscle for the first time I often get a temporary "limp noodle phase" that has lasted anywhere from 1 day to 2 weeks. I wonder if that's what they are talking about with "decreasing markers of performance." It usually only happens to me the first time I succeed in releasing a muscle - or if I wasn't thorough enough the first time then it might happen again when I release the muscle a 2nd or 3rd time.

I even took a video of this "limp noodle phase" when I ran into it in my quads...this is me trying to lift my foot as quickly as possible during that "limp noodle phase." If you watch it you'll think I'm intentionally slowing it down on purpose to exaggerate...I'm not. I released multiple huge knots in my quads, for the first time ever... and then my quads were just that limp. It put a huge dent in my squat performance.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lL5lbHLN1kM

But then my quads suddenly bounced back and when they bounced back I got a 5lb squat PR out of nowhere. Your fist/punching analogy is perfect for how I feel when the muscle bounces back!

I went through the same limp noodle phase in my lower back when I released my QLs and psoas ... it was very unnerving to feel like a bobble-waist doll temporarily. I wonder if "don't ever release your lower back!" comes from someone who encountered this limp noodle phase and was turned off by it. It was even unnerving for me even though I had been through the same thing with a lot of other muscles and knew it was just temporary.

[Rags85]

Just the stuff saying it isnt beneficial or that it even decreases markers of performance. But, 99% of the time, the subject go right from rolling to what ever the testing variable is. If you are rolling and then immediately hoping under your heaviest squat of the day, then that is just really $hitty programming. I'd love to see a study where someone rolled, then performed a general dynamic warm-up for 15-20 minutes, then hoped into training. I am willing to bet those results would be different than most of the research out there now.


Edit: sorry, I am typing this assuming people know the laxity effect of soft tissue work only lasts for about 5 minutes.

Gotcha, meaningless test results from very poor test conditions. I work in an engineering lab and this is the stuff that is most annoying. People do tests and I think "what in the hell was the point of that?"

[kaleida]

That is interesting it only lasts 5 minutes max for you, Hamburger, have you been foam-rolling a long time? My limp-noodle phases lasted a lot longer than that when I first started releasing things, but I was diving in to 30 years' worth of untreated knots... my muscles only go limp the first time I successfully release a huge knot...and after a year of searching & destroying muscle knots all over my body I don't run into noticeable limp-noodle phases any more.

This thread has been really interesting.

Last night I was working on my QLs again with a jacknobber (while reading this thread - lol!) and I did not have any limp noodle phase to deal with after I finished that, just a feeling that my alignment was "back to normal" when I was done. They're used to it now.

[breathinglife]

THESE. Your lumbar spine needs to be STABLE not MOBILE.

But this isn't just an either/or thing, is it? It's not just a switch from 100% stable to 100% mobile.

I don't know if Hamburger covered this (I have a feeling he and I feel the same in this area), but I definitely know there are times when my back is too stiff to lift properly. I've watched Sam Byrd stretch his back, hips, spine, shoulders, for about an hour before he could hit depth on a squat. He was clearly too "stable" and needed to stretch in order to be mobile enough to do his lift.

Now sure, you could go too far in mobility work and stretch your back until you were unstable under your squats. But isn't it also a possibility that you could be too stiff as well? Would the anti-foam rolling and stretching crowd claim that no one has ever been too stiff to perform a squat correctly?

I'm curious as to your answers.

EDIT: I see this has already been covered...

[Daemonium]

But this isn't just an either/or thing, is it? It's not just a switch from 100% stable to 100% mobile.

I don't know if Hamburger covered this (I have a feeling he and I feel the same in this area), but I definitely know there are times when my back is too stiff to lift properly. I've watched Sam Byrd stretch his back, hips, spine, shoulders, for about an hour before he could hit depth on a squat. He was clearly too "stable" and needed to stretch in order to be mobile enough to do his lift.

Now sure, you could go too far in mobility work and stretch your back until you were unstable under your squats. But isn't it also a possibility that you could be too stiff as well? Would the anti-foam rolling and stretching crowd claim that no one has ever been too stiff to perform a squat correctly?

I'm curious as to your answers.

EDIT: I see this has already been covered...

Pepper you angus for text.

With the lumbar spine -- stable. Its for maintaining proper posture, so its vital to have proper stability in the spine itself along with endurance in the trunk/core (whatever word you want to use) muscles in order to maintain proper positioning. Its different in respect to the T-spine, where you need mobility as it also pertains to general thoracic movement/function and scapular mechanics.

There are some situations that are very particular to the person when it comes to certain joints. The shoulder (GH) shoulder is extremely mobile, but structurally unstable. Some people have tight shoulders and may need to do shoulder mobility work to get a fuller ROM, but it shoulder be done within reason given the already unstable nature of the joint. The hip is a very stable joint and very immobile but stable, which is why so many people have trouble hitting depth. Increasing mobility related partially to the muscles that cross the hip, but also general structure in some cases. (i.e. socket depth)

Now, this isn't to say you shouldn't be working the muscles that cross the lumbar spine (obviously), but that the spine itself should remain in a safe position when doing so - i.e. not rounded/flexed. Could laxity in the muscles effect stability under heavy load? maybe. But being under so much tension you have to care for it like any other muscle, there are just certain factors you need to take into account like any other joint.

[kaleida]

Releasing hip muscles but not lower back muscles sounded good in theory to me a year ago ...but in practice it just didn't work out for me that way... When I released glutes/TFLs/quads/adductors/etc, my pelvis picked a new alignment, less anterior pelvic tilt and less lateral pelvic tilt. And then I was in the really unpleasant state where my hip muscles were stretchy enough to handle new pelvic alignment but my lower back muscles were not. I don't like being in that state any longer than necessary...I had warning pain and involuntary spasms. Rules about which muscles to release and which to leave alone get tossed out the window pretty quickly when a muscle is unhappy. And I did go through a laxity phase just like I did with other muscles, but that was temporary and I love the end result

I think we all agree on "don't mess with it if it isn't complaining" at least. No point in starting a huge trigger point release project if nothing is wrong to begin with!