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  1. #271
    русский агент Stizzel's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Boxman View Post
    You know it doesn't work that way; ER's can't turn patients away and in the end we all pay for medical bankruptcies and for people forced onto Medicaid and other taxpayer funded programs. And you also know that having a hodge-podge of private and public insurance providers makes for a messy and extremely expensive system, which means that those who wish to "take care of their own healthcare" still get punished with higher premiums along with everyone else.

    Health care is a funny business. There's only two ways to keep costs down: 1) NO insurance for ANYONE (everybody pays out of pocket), or 2) Universal insurance for EVERYONE.

    Option 1 can work, in the sense that healthcare would be cheaper if NOBODY had insurance thus forcing hospitals to be more competitive with pricing, but that would mean millions die every year for lack of funds. But if you're ok with that, yes this model can keep costs down. There's a reason plastic surgeries are so much cheaper than other types of surgical procedures of equal complexity; it's because plastic surgeries are almost never covered by insurance.

    Option 2 works better because a single-payer insurance model allows the govt to dictate or at least negotiate pricing with hospitals and big pharma. When you have one entity providing all the insurance, it gives them tremendous bargaining power and is the reason equivalent healthcare cost 3x less per capita in France and other countries that use this model.
    Nothing you said here has anything to do with the post you are replying to
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  2. #272
    Registered User kusok's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Boxman View Post
    You know it doesn't work that way; ER's can't turn patients away and in the end we all pay for medical bankruptcies and for people forced onto Medicaid and other taxpayer funded programs. And you also know that having a hodge-podge of private and public insurance providers makes for a messy and extremely expensive system, which means that those who wish to "take care of their own healthcare" still get punished with higher premiums along with everyone else.

    Health care is a funny business. There's only two ways to keep costs down: 1) NO insurance for ANYONE (everybody pays out of pocket), or 2) Universal insurance for EVERYONE.

    Option 1 can work, in the sense that healthcare would be cheaper if NOBODY had insurance thus forcing hospitals to be more competitive with pricing, but that would mean millions die every year for lack of funds. But if you're ok with that, yes this model can keep costs down. There's a reason plastic surgeries are so much cheaper than other types of surgical procedures of equal complexity; it's because plastic surgeries are almost never covered by insurance.

    Option 2 works better because a single-payer insurance model allows the govt to dictate or at least negotiate pricing with hospitals and big pharma. When you have one entity providing all the insurance, it gives them tremendous bargaining power and is the reason equivalent healthcare cost 3x less per capita in France and other countries that use this model.

    ERs can turn or not turn away whoever they want. What does that have to do with me? I should not be forced to pay for anything I don't use.

    If I wish to pay someone a fee we agreed to every year, with a contract that says that that someone will pay for me if I get hurt, that should be between me and that someone. Let us be.

    I don't think Option 1 would result in people laying around on the street. This was not the case back in the day, charity hospitals like the ones Ron Paul volunteered for never turned away anyone.

    Option 2 = theft. In order for government to provide something it has to steal something first since government has nothing, it doesn't produce anything. Theft is not good.
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  3. #273
    Humble Megalomaniac ElrondHubbard's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Jexex View Post
    Why should I pay for someone else's health care?
    Because I guarantee you that someday you'll have a health problem that you can't afford to treat. Are you going to lay down and die on principle?
    “Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.”
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  4. #274
    Registered User kusok's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ElrondHubbard View Post
    Because I guarantee you that someday you'll have a health problem that you can't afford to treat. Are you going to lay down and die on principle?

    In no way is that any of your business. Let him handle his healthcare in a way that he wants to handle it, if at all. You just mind your business please. You can't steal from people and try to justify that by saying: "Oh! But you may need this one day! I'll hold it for you!" lol


    Why don't you communists grasp such a simple thing? Just leave us the f_ck alone? lols
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  5. #275
    Not actually named untz. mynameisuntz's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Jesse_l_g View Post
    This is just silly to me. I think government control is exactly why more people die from prescription drugs than illicit drugs now days. If it was really about helping people in the best way possible governments would pay more attention to educating people on how to live healthy lifestyles, instead of forcing us to sit down all day and cancelling PE. The FDA would actually look out for peoples health. They would actually address all the chemicals being dumped into our environment instead of stopping cannabis from being researched for its medicinal value.
    Cool, many of the evils which reside within our health care system stem from the fact that pharmaceutical companies are trying to turn a massive profit. This could be dealt with quite easily. Further, accidental deaths are inherent in all medical systems. That's the nature of medicine; it is a growing science.

    I just don't even know how you can suggest this. How much do YOU care about your fellow man if you support pointing the gun of government at people who disagree with you? Honestly WTF.
    Because taxing people an affordable amount of money in order to save those who could otherwise die is morally permissible. Easy.

    Originally Posted by kusok View Post
    In no way is that any of your business. Let him handle his healthcare in a way that he wants to handle it, if at all. You just mind your business please. You can't steal from people and try to justify that by saying: "Oh! But you may need this one day! I'll hold it for you!" lol


    Why don't you communists grasp such a simple thing? Just leave us the f_ck alone? lols
    I'll leave you alone when I have all your money! Hahaha! Gimme gimme!
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  6. #276
    Registered User kusok's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by mynameisuntz View Post


    Because taxing people an affordable amount of money in order to save those who could otherwise die is morally permissible. Easy.


    Stealing. Call it stealing. Don't hide behind the word taxation. It's not honest.


    You should not be paying for someone else's bad decisions, or even bad luck. If you want to pay, pay Still waiting for your donations commie. Commies never donate.
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  7. #277
    Not actually named untz. mynameisuntz's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by kusok View Post
    Stealing. Call it stealing. Don't hide behind the word taxation. It's not honest.


    You should not be paying for someone else's bad decisions, or even bad luck. If you want to pay, pay Still waiting for your donations commie. Commies never donate.
    Why would I donate when I can just take all of your money?!
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  8. #278
    Registered User moksha16's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by nutsy54 View Post
    So... When your claims fall apart, you just make up some lies, then change to an unrelated topic...

    Derp.
    What claims did i make that fell apart?
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  9. #279
    Random Words nutsy54's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by moksha16 View Post
    What claims did i make that fell apart?
    I'll repost the statements here, with my questions which you chose to ignore:

    Originally Posted by Boxman View Post
    What most Americans fail to realize is that universal health care would relieve US companies of a huge burden and make them more competitive, thus leading to more hiring and more jobs.
    And where do you think the massive amount of money comes from to fund this "universal" health care?

    How is anyone relieved of a huge burden, when that huge burden still needs to be funded and paid?
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  10. #280
    Registered User moksha16's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by nutsy54 View Post
    I'll repost the statements here, with my questions which you chose to ignore:


    And where do you think the massive amount of money comes from to fund this "universal" health care?

    How is anyone relieved of a huge burden, when that huge burden still needs to be funded and paid?
    Um.. i told you how to pay for them the only ignoring seems to be by you.


    The ridiculous military budget is an area you could use money to actually benefit the tax payers by diverting to UHC

    And The US Gov. is already paying more per capita for health care WITHOUT uhc.. other countries are paying less and still having a UHC while not burdening companies with the costs

    When virtually every other industrialized country on the planet seems to be able to manage it AT LESS COST you better have some really compelling arguments as to why the richest country in the world with a military 10x bigger than it needs can't afford it. Pro tip.. population size isn't one of those arguments nor are potato ideologue arguments like "taxes are stealing" derp
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  11. #281
    Registered User mydawgs's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by moksha16 View Post
    Um.. i told you how to pay for them the only ignoring seems to be by you.


    The ridiculous military budget is an area you could use money to actually benefit the tax payers by diverting to UHC

    And The US Gov. is already paying more per capita for health care WITHOUT uhc.. other countries are paying less and still having a UHC while not burdening companies with the costs

    When virtually every other industrialized country on the planet seems to be able to manage it AT LESS COST you better have some really compelling arguments as to why the richest country in the world with a military 10x bigger than it needs can't afford it. Pro tip.. population size isn't one of those arguments nor are potato ideologue arguments like "taxes are stealing" derp

    I wonder what kind of Health Benefits ISIS offers or North Korea or China....hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

    Wouldn't it be nice to let someone else provide "top cover" so you could divert your funds to socializing health care.
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  12. #282
    Registered User Shrugs4Life's Avatar
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    Mixed systems work best. Universal healthcare coverage for everyone, but also privatized options to ensure efficiency of service. Canada's provinces are facing a major dilemma in the upcoming decades because the costs of healthcare will exceed their total revenue generated.
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  13. #283
    Storm Trumper CitizenVagrant's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by holtmcg View Post
    I don't get it. Universal healthcare would (literally) benefit everybody. It's a shame the American health care system is so broken.
    I'll never understand how people can remain so uneducated about insurance fundamentals and mechanics while demanding that the industry change, a-la Affordable Care Act.

    Quick version: Read something in my signature.

    Slightly less quick version: If you thought the ACA was a good idea, you didn't (or don't) know enough about insurance to even remotely understand what it did or continues to do.

    If you do understand insurance fundamentals but still supported the ACA, then why in the **** would you support a government-sponsored insurance product that is fundamentally flawed and engineered to create an adversely selected risk pool from day ****ing one? Be reminded the only way this adversely selected risk pool remains solvent is via manipulation of the Medicare Fee Schedule (to **** with reference-based negotiations) and subsidizing the pool with non-premium dollars, AKA: the ****ing tax on those who do not have plans that meet ACA compliance (or no insurance at all).

    The entire thing is flawed and corrupt to the absolute core. A man who has forgotten more about insurance and the medical economy than most people will know in their entire lives said it ****ing best after he got called to Capitol hill for telling people the ****ing truth (that they were stupid): The ACA was passed thanks to the ignorance of the American citizenry. Because had they known exactly what it was and what it did (and would do) then no one in their right ****ing mind would have championed such a thing - not even those of the more Liberal persuasion.

    The blame is shared by many. Foremost by the President for engineering such a flawed product. Secondly by Congress for being a massive group of sycophants who voted on such a far-reaching measure without even beginning to understand its ramifications. And lastly the blame lies with the citizenry itself for electing such a group of sycophants to office and allowing this ****ed-up government to continue operating in such a reckless manner.
    Why Insurance Does Not Make You Safe:
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    On The Difference Between "Insurance" and "Medical Welfare":
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  14. #284
    русский агент Stizzel's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by CitizenVagrant View Post
    I'll never understand how people can remain so uneducated about insurance fundamentals and mechanics while demanding that the industry change, a-la Affordable Care Act.

    Quick version: Read something in my signature.

    Slightly less quick version: If you thought the ACA was a good idea, you didn't (or don't) know enough about insurance to even remotely understand what it did or continues to do.

    If you do understand insurance fundamentals but still supported the ACA, then why in the **** would you support a government-sponsored insurance product that is fundamentally flawed and engineered to create an adversely selected risk pool from day ****ing one? Be reminded the only way this adversely selected risk pool remains solvent is via manipulation of the Medicare Fee Schedule (to **** with reference-based negotiations) and subsidizing the pool with non-premium dollars, AKA: the ****ing tax on those who do not have plans that meet ACA compliance (or no insurance at all).

    The entire thing is flawed and corrupt to the absolute core. A man who has forgotten more about insurance and the medical economy than most people will know in their entire lives said it ****ing best after he got called to Capitol hill for telling people the ****ing truth (that they were stupid): The ACA was passed thanks to the ignorance of the American citizenry. Because had they known exactly what it was and what it did (and would do) then no one in their right ****ing mind would have championed such a thing - not even those of the more Liberal persuasion.

    The blame is shared by many. Foremost by the President for engineering such a flawed product. Secondly by Congress for being a massive group of sycophants who voted on such a far-reaching measure without even beginning to understand its ramifications. And lastly the blame lies with the citizenry itself for electing such a group of sycophants to office and allowing this ****ed-up government to continue operating in such a reckless manner.
    The many aspects of government working in harmony to **** the working class should not be a surprise to anyone.

    You and I are cattle, nothing more. If voting every few years makes you feel important then you are dumb cattle.
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  15. #285
    Registered User Boxman's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by CitizenVagrant View Post
    I'll never understand how people can remain so uneducated about insurance fundamentals and mechanics while demanding that the industry change, a-la Affordable Care Act.

    Quick version: Read something in my signature.

    Slightly less quick version: If you thought the ACA was a good idea, you didn't (or don't) know enough about insurance to even remotely understand what it did or continues to do.

    If you do understand insurance fundamentals but still supported the ACA, then why in the **** would you support a government-sponsored insurance product that is fundamentally flawed and engineered to create an adversely selected risk pool from day ****ing one? Be reminded the only way this adversely selected risk pool remains solvent is via manipulation of the Medicare Fee Schedule (to **** with reference-based negotiations) and subsidizing the pool with non-premium dollars, AKA: the ****ing tax on those who do not have plans that meet ACA compliance (or no insurance at all).

    The entire thing is flawed and corrupt to the absolute core. A man who has forgotten more about insurance and the medical economy than most people will know in their entire lives said it ****ing best after he got called to Capitol hill for telling people the ****ing truth (that they were stupid): The ACA was passed thanks to the ignorance of the American citizenry. Because had they known exactly what it was and what it did (and would do) then no one in their right ****ing mind would have championed such a thing - not even those of the more Liberal persuasion.

    The blame is shared by many. Foremost by the President for engineering such a flawed product. Secondly by Congress for being a massive group of sycophants who voted on such a far-reaching measure without even beginning to understand its ramifications. And lastly the blame lies with the citizenry itself for electing such a group of sycophants to office and allowing this ****ed-up government to continue operating in such a reckless manner.
    Agree ACA (Obamacare) is an atrocity. It's the worst of both worlds; all the disadvantages of a mixed system and private insurers, none of the advantages of a single-payer system where a single entity wields it's monopoly bargaining power to keep hospital and pharma costs down. The Dems should have pushed "Medicare For All" instead of the compromised mess that is Obamacare.

    If it weren't for Republican intransigence the Dems might have actually gone that way.
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    Originally Posted by Boxman View Post
    The Dems should have pushed "Medicare For All" instead of the compromised mess that is Obamacare.
    If it weren't for Republican intransigence the Dems might have actually gone that way.
    Republicans weren't involved in writing ACA
    Zero House Republicans voted to pass ACA
    Zero Senate Republicans voted to pass ACA
    A Democrat President enacted ACA

    So, derp, let's blame Republicans for a law they weren't involved with, and solidly opposed? What we have today is exactly what Democrats wanted, stop trying to blame anyone else.
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    Originally Posted by Boxman View Post
    The Dems should have pushed
    Dems should have pushed the half dozen other ways to suppress medical inflation besides ****ing with private sector insurance.

    Off the top of my head:

    1. Malpractice Tort Reform
    2. Reform OSHA standards at Hospitals
    3. Incentivize or subsidize the research and implementation of generic pharma / general medical research (with a focus on efficiency) through NIH grants
    4. Public wellness initiatives and promotion via HHS (Less Michelle Obama lunches, more sending around Fitness Ambassadors for promotion of exercise)
    5. Increase taxation / regulation on contributors to comorbid issues, such as tobacco.
    6. Last and most difficult, begin some kind of systematic FDA crackdown on the inclusion of HFCS and / or Sodium in a wide variety of foods.

    But lol nope, instead we get Obammycare and Lunch by Michelle Obama (tm)
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    Originally Posted by ElrondHubbard View Post
    Because I guarantee you that someday you'll have a health problem that you can't afford to treat. Are you going to lay down and die on principle?
    This is an easy guarantee to make when lobbyists and ignorant voters are working overtime to drive up costs.
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    Originally Posted by mynameisuntz View Post


    Because taxing people an affordable amount of money in order to save those who could otherwise die is morally permissible. Easy.

    Absolutely. But government welfare is not that. It's not the same thing. It would maybe work if government was angels and wonderful people, but we all know power corrupts and politicians are liars and scum. You can't change this. The giving has to happen on personal level, not by Obama's orders.
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    The best and cheapest way to have great healthcare is free market. Healthcare cost $2 per year in free market. $200 in today's inflated by government money. Read up:

    http://www.freenation.org/a/f12l3.html
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    Originally Posted by kusok View Post
    Absolutely. But government welfare is not that. It's not the same thing. It would maybe work if government was angels and wonderful people, but we all know power corrupts and politicians are liars and scum. You can't change this. The giving has to happen on personal level, not by Obama's orders.
    Except this has successfully taken place in other countries. There's evidence that their systems are incredibly fair and better overall for the entire population.
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    Originally Posted by mynameisuntz View Post
    Except this has successfully taken place in other countries. There's evidence that their systems are incredibly fair and better overall for the entire population.

    I have not seen any empirical evidence despite studying it, nor experienced this evidence anecdotally despite having lived in many countries, nor heard of this evidence despite having many colleagues who live in other countries. And also, whichever countries you're referring to would do even better if it was a free market. See the above article and link.


    But again, I'm 100% with you if someone is dying and needs help, then stealing is fine to help this person. It's the classic case of:

    You're in a desert and dying with no water. A guy with many water bottles comes around and demands $1'000'000 per bottle. Would you overpower him and take the bottle by force? Of course you would, everyone would. I would. But this is not what you're talking about. It's not the same thing.


    In the end, moral arguments about how theft is wrong never convince socialists, and instead it is the reality is what ends socialism as money runs out. Socialism only works until you run out of other people's money.


    But specifically on your point: you need to show a specific country (name it), and then videotape yourself going into a hospital, and then compare it to doing exactly the same thing under free market, if you want to show that socialized medicine is better. Michael Moore tried to do just that, and was found to be lying. Not to mention that US is not a free market anyway.
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    What's wrong with voluntary socialized medicine?


    If indeed so many people like Untz believe in socialized universal healthcare, get together, call each other on the phone, sign a contract. And boom, you got your universal healthcare.



    Little factoid:

    Did you know that in countries with socialized healthcare the ruling classes (government and their funders) use PRIVATE superior clinics and even go to US and other more privatized medicine countries for treatment?
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    Originally Posted by kusok View Post
    If indeed so many people like Untz believe in socialized universal healthcare, get together, call each other on the phone, sign a contract. And boom, you got your universal healthcare.
    But Kusok, they would need a team of highly trained professionals to make sure that everyone was paying their premiums correctly and all the medical bills were paid correctly in a timely manner. Also they would need to negotiate rates with the private market, since the providers wouldn't be owned by the people who signed the contract. And also if someone got REALLY sick, they would need people there to mitigate the damage that person did to the fund so it wouldn't go bankrupt and prevent all the people who signed the contract from losing benefits.

    Oh hey it's just like I ****ing described the insurance industry.

    We don't know what we're doing over here. I just tell people they have "insurance" and people hand me free money. It's not like there is this framework of essential fundamental concepts that allows this "insurance" to work or anything.

    Actuarial data? Pfft, I just throw a dart at the dartboard to determine what everyone's rate increases will be this year. Right after I plan my 3rd trip to Vegas for the year so I can snort ******* off of a hooker's giant fake tits - all paid for with your premium dollars.

    Because everyone knows that premium dollars don't go to pay claims, and these companies are huge so they have basically infinite money and can just do whatever the **** they want without any repercussions whatsoever. Never mind this litany of laws that mandate how the money is used and invested and how much has to be kept in reserves. Just **** it, no one enforces those laws anyways. It's not like I get audited multiple times per year to the point that there are people asking for my resume whom I have given my resume to for the last 5 years ****ing going.

    This is insurance. We just do whatever the **** we wanna do, because no one understands chit about insurance.
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    Originally Posted by nutsy54 View Post
    Republicans weren't involved in writing ACA
    Zero House Republicans voted to pass ACA
    Zero Senate Republicans voted to pass ACA
    A Democrat President enacted ACA

    So, derp, let's blame Republicans for a law they weren't involved with, and solidly opposed? What we have today is exactly what Democrats wanted, stop trying to blame anyone else.
    Nice rewriting of history. You've forgotten the whole "Public Option" thing, haven't you? This was basically proposed as the precursor to "Medicare for All"; if implemented the Public Option would have quickly put the private insurance industry out of business and effectively led to a single payer system. Republicans and "blue-dog" Democrats (Dems in name only from conservative states) killed the Public Option idea very early in the game, forcing Dems to come up with a compromise plan (ie: Obamacare) to try and get them onboard.

    You forget Obamacare was the same system proposed by Richard Nixon, implemented by Mitt Romney in Massachusetts, and proposed as the solution to our ills by John McCain when he ran for president. Obamacare was always the Republican solution to healthcare, while the Dems' solution was always some variant of a single-payer system (it's what the Clintons tried to enact back in 1992).

    Obamacare was the Plan B to try and get right-leaning Dems and Republicans back onboard. This was before it was clear to everyone that Republicans were going to obstruct and sabotage the administration as a matter of policy, even on issues they agreed with. In hindsight, the Dems should have dropped healthcare reform as soon as it became clear they weren't going to get the Public Option. Anyway the point is Republicans deserve just as much blame for Obamacare as the Dems... it was always their idea for chrissake. John McCain would have pushed the exact same legislation had he won in 2008, and you idiots would probably be defending it right now.

    Originally Posted by CitizenVagrant View Post
    Dems should have pushed the half dozen other ways to suppress medical inflation besides ****ing with private sector insurance.

    Off the top of my head:

    1. Malpractice Tort Reform
    2. Reform OSHA standards at Hospitals
    3. Incentivize or subsidize the research and implementation of generic pharma / general medical research (with a focus on efficiency) through NIH grants
    4. Public wellness initiatives and promotion via HHS (Less Michelle Obama lunches, more sending around Fitness Ambassadors for promotion of exercise)
    5. Increase taxation / regulation on contributors to comorbid issues, such as tobacco.
    6. Last and most difficult, begin some kind of systematic FDA crackdown on the inclusion of HFCS and / or Sodium in a wide variety of foods.

    But lol nope, instead we get Obammycare and Lunch by Michelle Obama (tm)
    You know damn well that of all those bullet points, only #1 would have any chance in hell of making it past Republicans in the House and Senate. Democrats would probably implement most of those reforms if they had the power to do so. Republicans sure as hell aren't.
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    Originally Posted by Boxman View Post
    Nice rewriting of history. You've forgotten the whole "Public Option" thing, haven't you? This was basically proposed as the precursor to "Medicare for All"; if implemented the Public Option would have quickly put the private insurance industry out of business and effectively led to a single payer system. Republicans and "blue-dog" Democrats (Dems in name only from conservative states) killed the Public Option idea very early in the game, forcing Dems to come up with a compromise plan (ie: Obamacare) to try and get them onboard.
    How the hell is it "rewriting history" to state exactly what happened?

    Your "public option" distraction is irrelevant, because it's not what Democrats chose for the country, when Democrats solely decided what legislation would be written and passed.

    Once again: Why are you pretending those with no involvement writing or passing this law should be blamed for its contents, while ignoring everyone who actually did write and pass it?

    The rest of your post is just irrelevent, fictional, "what if" claims that put a lot of effort into ignoring actual history.
    Last edited by nutsy54; 05-20-2015 at 05:26 PM.
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    Originally Posted by Boxman View Post

    You know damn well that of all those bullet points, only #1 would have any chance in hell of making it past Republicans in the House and Senate. Democrats would probably implement most of those reforms if they had the power to do so. Republicans sure as hell aren't.
    Jesus Christ. It's now wonder this country is so ****ed up. Blame Republicans for everything!
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    Originally Posted by leakypipe23 View Post
    Jesus Christ. It's now wonder this country is so ****ed up. Blame Republicans for everything!
    They're the reason why we're stuck in the middle east spending all this money. Yes, I am blaming them.
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    Originally Posted by holtmcg View Post
    They're the reason why we're stuck in the middle east spending all this money. Yes, I am blaming them.
    So... Republicans are to blame for the healthcare law solely written, passed, and enacted by Democrats...

    And now Republicans are to blame for 6 1/2 years of Obama's foreign policy (not to mention the strong Democrat support that kicked off, continued, and expanded our wars since 2001).

    Partisan gonna partisan.
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    Originally Posted by nutsy54 View Post
    So... Republicans are to blame for the healthcare law solely written, passed, and enacted by Democrats...

    And now Republicans are to blame for 6 1/2 years of Obama's foreign policy (not to mention the strong Democrat support that kicked off, continued, and expanded our wars since 2001).

    Partisan gonna partisan.
    A fraction of what Republicans have done.
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