The Great Republic of Turkey and dying Republic of Italy

[fooghorn]

If birth rates were an indicator for success, africa would already be ruling the world.

[bbsitum]

I do not know why this troll compare Turkey with Europe. I write him before about but he ignore. Turkey is a Muslim country and never ever will be Europe nor a European country. This is why entire Europe hold visas against Turks.

[Fedex01]

If birth rates were an indicator for success, africa would already be ruling the world.

Only differences are;

Africa is piss poor broken backward region where birth rates are exploding due to poverty, disease, and so on.

Turkey, on the other hand, is a very powerful nation-state with a developed economy, high-Middle income per capita, integrated defense and economic market presence with world's top zones (Europe, United States, and increasingly China), and birth rates in Turkey are stable and healthy.

The point per say isn't about Turkey but about Europe. With current birth rates, Europe is fast becoming irrelevant backwater on global scale. And oh, its losing its indigenous cultural existence as well.

When powerful states like Turkey have stable population growth while others around it lag behind, the power shifts to the states with superior demography.

Turkey was nothing but sick man of Europe in 1960's, 70's....Today, it is the strongest power of Eastern and Central Europe, and is the fourth most powerful country in Europe, which holds more influence in world's power politics than any other European power. (Germany is a economic superpower, not to be confused by its power to shape things outside its borders politically---in which Turkey far surpasses Germany with having influence in central Asia (Turkish speaking countries), Middle-Eastern nations (Regularly brokers peace between Israel and Palestinian facts by interfering), and defense alliances that go far and wide (Other than being the second largest force in NATO, Turkey has defense pacts with nuclear nations like Pakistan).

But you can keep "africa" analogy though. If that soothes you

[Fedex01]

I just ran across a startling statistic which is very fitting for this thread...

In EU, the "natural increase" in population was just over 200,000 in 2014 (the difference between new births and deaths in a calendar year)

In Turkey alone, the natural increase in population was 947,383!!

This is amazing.

As I explain in the above post, Turkey isn't some backwater poor sh!thole like Africa where poverty is driving overpopulation. Turkey is a stable, developed, upper-middle class/rich country with industries, global corporations, industrialized economy, powerful military, and a stable population growth. Yet, it leaves entire continent of Europe behind when it comes to demographic health.

Turkey is giant brah!!

[Dave22reborn]

I just ran across a startling statistic which is very fitting for this thread...

In EU, the "natural increase" in population was just over 200,000 in 2014 (the difference between new births and deaths in a calendar year)

In Turkey alone, the natural increase in population was 947,383!!

This is amazing.

As I explain in the above post, Turkey isn't some backwater poor sh!thole like Africa where poverty is driving overpopulation. Turkey is a stable, developed, upper-middle class/rich country with industries, global corporations, industrialized economy, powerful military, and a stable population growth. Yet, it leaves entire continent of Europe behind when it comes to demographic health.

Turkey is giant brah!!

Then why do they emigrate to other countries?

[BalkanPrince]

I cannot help but laugh at how idiotic so many posters are when talking about modern Turkey and Erdogan. They obviously have no idea what a chithole Turkey was before his reign. All they hate Turkey for is because of mainly minor issues in Turkish politics while totally ignoring the fact that this man saved Turkey from becoming just another Middle Eastern poverty state.


Turkey under Erdogan

The Good:

- Removed Military dictatorship in Turkey, came to power every time via fair elections.
- AKP party allows Kurdish language broadcasts on public television.
- Introduced democratic reforms.
- Saved Turkey from the 2001 economic crisis in Turkey.
- Reduced power of the 1991 anti-terror law which locked up anyone up to 3 years for "separatist propaganda" which targeted Kurds and demolished their human rights.
- In 2011, he made legal reforms which returned property of an estimated 2 Billion dollars to Jewish and Christian minorities, taken by the Turkish government in the 1930's.
- Tightened the laws on sale and consumption on alcohol for the better good of the health of his people.
- Lifted government regulations in the Turkish economy, the cash-flow into the Turkish economy between 2002 and 2012 caused a growth of 64% in real GDP and a 43% increase in GDP per capita.
- Erdogan inherited a debt of $23.5 billion to the IMF, which was reduced to $0.9 billion in 2012. In 2010, five-year credit default swaps for Turkey's sovereign debt were trading at a record low of 1.17%, below those of nine EU member countries and Russia.
- Turkish Central Bank had $26.5 billion in reserves in 2002, but rose to $92.2 billion in 2011 under Erdogan.
- During Erdogan's leadership, inflation fell from 32% to 9.0% in 2004
- Turkish public debt as a percentage of annual GDP declined from 74% in 2002 to 39% in 2009. In 2012, Turkey had a lower ratio of public debt to GDP than 21 of 27 members of the European Union
- Erdogan increased the budget of the Ministry of Education from 7.5 billion lira in 2002 to 34 billion lira in 2011, the highest share of the national budget given to one ministry.
- During Erdogan's prime ministership, the number of universities in Turkey nearly doubled, from 98 in 2002 to 186 in October 2012
- Under Erdoğan's government, the number of airports in Turkey increased from 26 to 50
- Between the founding of the Republic of Turkey in 1923 and 2002, there had been 6000 km of dual carriageway roads created. Between 2002 and 2011, another 13500 km of expressway were built. Due to these measures, the number of motor accidents fell by 50 percent.
- In 8 years, 1076 km of railway were built and 5449 km of railway renewed.
- In 2010, Turkey's population was estimated at 73,700,000, with a growth rate of 1.21% per annum (2009 figure)

The Bad:

- Ohhhhhh he is a religious Muslim man!
- Ohhhhhh he banned Twitter for a while!
- Ohhhhhh we hate Erdogan for the same reasons that we love Putin for!


Erdogan is in fact the GOAT leader of the Turkish republic of the modern times, took them from being the sick man of Europe to a country that doesn't give a phuck and stands on it's own two feet. Made them one of the top 17 strongest economies in the world. Everything people accuse him of, he did the opposite. The Kurds were treated like chit before him, as were all other minorities. Also, freedom of press was close to non-existant under the military dictatorship Turkey lived in before he came to power. Religious freedom was low for all groups, he changed that completely.

[pumpgun51]

Ataturk was doing his best to actually make Turkey a secular state and then Erdogan derped along to bring back the good old theocracy. Theocracy =\= EU ideals or a trustworthy NATO member, in case that wasn't obvious.

despite me hating both of these *******s you've gotta be honest and tell it how it is


ataturk was planted by the brits to destroy the ottoman empire and weaken the turks global strength, which he did

the erdog on the other hand has strengthened turkeys power in the world and made the turks a global player in international matters again, with support from saudi arabia and israel, he knows which rings to kiss


the saudi butt boy basically cucked putin for everybody to see and there were zero repercussions, he in fact demanded an apology from putin, while putin looked visible tired/beaten in his last interviews

[IbnKutub]

Only differences are;

Africa is piss poor broken backward region where birth rates are exploding due to poverty, disease, and so on.

Turkey, on the other hand, is a very powerful nation-state with a developed economy, high-Middle income per capita, integrated defense and economic market presence with world's top zones (Europe, United States, and increasingly China), and birth rates in Turkey are stable and healthy.

The point per say isn't about Turkey but about Europe. With current birth rates, Europe is fast becoming irrelevant backwater on global scale. And oh, its losing its indigenous cultural existence as well.

When powerful states like Turkey have stable population growth while others around it lag behind, the power shifts to the states with superior demography.

Turkey was nothing but sick man of Europe in 1960's, 70's....Today, it is the strongest power of Eastern and Central Europe, and is the fourth most powerful country in Europe, which holds more influence in world's power politics than any other European power. (Germany is a economic superpower, not to be confused by its power to shape things outside its borders politically---in which Turkey far surpasses Germany with having influence in central Asia (Turkish speaking countries), Middle-Eastern nations (Regularly brokers peace between Israel and Palestinian facts by interfering), and defense alliances that go far and wide (Other than being the second largest force in NATO, Turkey has defense pacts with nuclear nations like Pakistan).

But you can keep "africa" analogy though. If that soothes you

You're not very well read on Africa at all.

[IbnKutub]

I cannot help but laugh at how idiotic so many posters are when talking about modern Turkey and Erdogan. They obviously have no idea what a chithole Turkey was before his reign. All they hate Turkey for is because of mainly minor issues in Turkish politics while totally ignoring the fact that this man saved Turkey from becoming just another Middle Eastern poverty state.


Turkey under Erdogan

The Good:

- Removed Military dictatorship in Turkey, came to power every time via fair elections.
- AKP party allows Kurdish language broadcasts on public television.
- Introduced democratic reforms.
- Saved Turkey from the 2001 economic crisis in Turkey.
- Reduced power of the 1991 anti-terror law which locked up anyone up to 3 years for "separatist propaganda" which targeted Kurds and demolished their human rights.
- In 2011, he made legal reforms which returned property of an estimated 2 Billion dollars to Jewish and Christian minorities, taken by the Turkish government in the 1930's.
- Tightened the laws on sale and consumption on alcohol for the better good of the health of his people.
- Lifted government regulations in the Turkish economy, the cash-flow into the Turkish economy between 2002 and 2012 caused a growth of 64% in real GDP and a 43% increase in GDP per capita.
- Erdogan inherited a debt of $23.5 billion to the IMF, which was reduced to $0.9 billion in 2012. In 2010, five-year credit default swaps for Turkey's sovereign debt were trading at a record low of 1.17%, below those of nine EU member countries and Russia.
- Turkish Central Bank had $26.5 billion in reserves in 2002, but rose to $92.2 billion in 2011 under Erdogan.
- During Erdogan's leadership, inflation fell from 32% to 9.0% in 2004
- Turkish public debt as a percentage of annual GDP declined from 74% in 2002 to 39% in 2009. In 2012, Turkey had a lower ratio of public debt to GDP than 21 of 27 members of the European Union
- Erdogan increased the budget of the Ministry of Education from 7.5 billion lira in 2002 to 34 billion lira in 2011, the highest share of the national budget given to one ministry.
- During Erdogan's prime ministership, the number of universities in Turkey nearly doubled, from 98 in 2002 to 186 in October 2012
- Under Erdoğan's government, the number of airports in Turkey increased from 26 to 50
- Between the founding of the Republic of Turkey in 1923 and 2002, there had been 6000 km of dual carriageway roads created. Between 2002 and 2011, another 13500 km of expressway were built. Due to these measures, the number of motor accidents fell by 50 percent.
- In 8 years, 1076 km of railway were built and 5449 km of railway renewed.
- In 2010, Turkey's population was estimated at 73,700,000, with a growth rate of 1.21% per annum (2009 figure)

The Bad:

- Ohhhhhh he is a religious Muslim man!
- Ohhhhhh he banned Twitter for a while!
- Ohhhhhh we hate Erdogan for the same reasons that we love Putin for!


Erdogan is in fact the GOAT leader of the Turkish republic of the modern times, took them from being the sick man of Europe to a country that doesn't give a phuck and stands on it's own two feet. Made them one of the top 17 strongest economies in the world. Everything people accuse him of, he did the opposite. The Kurds were treated like chit before him, as were all other minorities. Also, freedom of press was close to non-existant under the military dictatorship Turkey lived in before he came to power. Religious freedom was low for all groups, he changed that completely.

It's leaders like him that critics of Islam and the ME in general fume over. They'd prefer one hundred Saddams and Qaddafis over one single Erdogan.

Mashallah.

[TheAdz95]

My great grandfather fought in WW1 with the Turks lol

that explains you to a T

[Slacker23]

Does this really deserve discussion?

Italy has 60 mil people, has won 20 Nobels and a Fields
Turkey has 80 mil people, has won 2 Nobels and 0 Fields

Keep in mind that science is not what Italy is best known for... comparing Turkey to the UK, Germany or France would be downright cruel.

[ZenBowman]

Pre-AKP Turkey was indeed the jewel of the Muslim world.

Post-AKP Turkey is on the road to becoming another theocratic hellhole.

Yes, they will have more kids, but it is the poor and religious who will have more kids, and political turmoil is certain in Turkey's future.

[Fedex01]

Pre-AKP Turkey was indeed the jewel of the Muslim world.

Post-AKP Turkey is on the road to becoming another theocratic hellhole.

Yes, they will have more kids, but it is the poor and religious who will have more kids, and political turmoil is certain in Turkey's future.

Are you kidding me?

Pre-AKP Turkey was no different than Sh*tty broken countries of Eastern Europe (actually, Turkey was worse!). Turkey had shi*ty economy, huge external debt, unstable political system, minimal influence in global affairs, personal freedoms were consistently under attack, and minorities like Kurds were not even recognized as minorities but "mountain Turks"

Today, Turkey is a rising star of the region to put it mildly. Few problems remain but compared to what it was before, Turkey is much, much better now.

Turkey is the single most powerful nation of Eastern and Central Europe, and is closing gap with the West European nations.

[Fedex01]

Does this really deserve discussion?

Italy has 60 mil people, has won 20 Nobels and a Fields
Turkey has 80 mil people, has won 2 Nobels and 0 Fields

Keep in mind that science is not what Italy is best known for... comparing Turkey to the UK, Germany or France would be downright cruel.

We aren't discussing science in this thread, are we?

And Nobel prizes are irrelevant. Italy also has more nobels than Chinese...lol, so what?

My point is about dying Europe demographically and how even one nation surpasses European continent in terms of adding new members to society.

[babynology]

Search at babynology Old baby names which born in 2014

[ZenBowman]

The Bad:

- Ohhhhhh he is a religious Muslim man!
- Ohhhhhh he banned Twitter for a while!
- Ohhhhhh we hate Erdogan for the same reasons that we love Putin for!

LOL @ you whitewashing all his evils.

The bad
- Engaging in a culture war against the secular, educated class of Turkey - you know, the ones who produce everything.
- Moving towards mixing religion and the state, much like the GOP in the US.
- Trying actively to increase executive power and degrade the balance of powers.
- The Kurds were simply used by Erdogan to gain power, now he disposes of them as they are no longer useful.
- Actively supporting Jihadist groups, possibly including IS, in Syria.
- Blatantly racist against Armenians and Jews.
- Constant media intimidation and censorship (another pillar of fascism).
- Electoral fraud.

The guy is a neo-Ottoman thug. I sincerely hope Putin takes him and his party out.

[A-GAME]

The guy is a neo-Ottoman thug. I sincerely hope Putin takes him and his party out.

That would be lovely. No need for an all out war, but if Putin could get rid of this ******* he would definitely have his revenge.

[skinnytobulk]

LOL @ you whitewashing all his evils.

The bad
- Engaging in a culture war against the secular, educated class of Turkey - you know, the ones who produce everything.
- Moving towards mixing religion and the state, much like the GOP in the US.
- Trying actively to increase executive power and degrade the balance of powers.
- The Kurds were simply used by Erdogan to gain power, now he disposes of them as they are no longer useful.
- Actively supporting Jihadist groups, possibly including IS, in Syria.
- Blatantly racist against Armenians and Jews.
- Constant media intimidation and censorship (another pillar of fascism).
- Electoral fraud.

The guy is a neo-Ottoman thug. I sincerely hope Putin takes him and his party out.

That would be lovely. No need for an all out war, but if Putin could get rid of this ******* he would definitely have his revenge.

Is that possible?

[IbnKutub]

LOL @ you whitewashing all his evils.

The bad
- Engaging in a culture war against the secular, educated class of Turkey - you know, the ones who produce everything.
- Moving towards mixing religion and the state, much like the GOP in the US.
- Trying actively to increase executive power and degrade the balance of powers.
- The Kurds were simply used by Erdogan to gain power, now he disposes of them as they are no longer useful.
- Actively supporting Jihadist groups, possibly including IS, in Syria.
- Blatantly racist against Armenians and Jews.
- Constant media intimidation and censorship (another pillar of fascism).
- Electoral fraud.

The guy is a neo-Ottoman thug. I sincerely hope Putin takes him and his party out.

When are you going to admit you simply don't know what you're talking about?

It's one thing to have legitimate political grievances, its another to just spew garbage hoping it sticks.

Buckle up though, because he isn't going anywhere inshallah, so stock up your jimmys.

[Fedex01]

LOL @ you whitewashing all his evils.

The bad
- Engaging in a culture war against the secular, educated class of Turkey - you know, the ones who produce everything.

lol, what culture war? Turkey is 95% Muslims "at the very least" and it were secular elites that were oppressing the pious majority (as analysts would call it). Erdogan just gave freedom to everybody (that is, wear bikinis if you want, or wear hijabs if you want). Turkey is a Muslim country and Islam plays a great role in private and public lives of Muslims wherever they exist, including Turkey.

Islam isn't a dead/humiliated religion like Christianity, its a massively powerful force, so the new "religious-ish" outlook of Turks isn't Erdogan's doing. It is what Turks always were (moderate sunnis) and Erdogan just allowed Turks to express themselves.

You were ok with discrimination against people in Turkey based on their personal choices (hijabs/religious practice)--but you don't like Erdogan because he allowed freedoms such as freedom of choice and religion.

And oh, ever heard of "Anatolian Tigers"? These core provinces of Turkey are religious and also economically super competitive and forms the core of Turkish industrial production. So let go of "seculars produce everything" mantra.

- Moving towards mixing religion and the state, much like the GOP in the US.

How so? lol

He uses Islamic appeal to get the support of masses which adhere to Islamic traditions. Politics 101. He isn't "mixing Islam and state"...he's at best using religion for his political gain. But then again, that's all politicians for you. Everybody uses various tools for their personal benefits.

-

Trying actively to increase executive power and degrade the balance of powers.

Yeah, but historical experience of Turkey consists of political deadlocks, political instability, electoral ineffectiveness and so on. Why wouldn't you go for Presidential system in such a country where politics keep getting stagnated due to deadlocks after deadlocks? (AKP is the only party that was able to rise above this problem due to their stunning political/electoral performances)

Again, what solution do YOU recommend to solve Turkey's deep vulnerability to political deadlocks, hung parliaments, and so on? Please tell us.

- The Kurds were simply used by Erdogan to gain power, now he disposes of them as they are no longer useful.

Lol, not really. Erdogan and his party still "pander" to Kurdish votes. Moreover, Kurds are conservative religious people who vote for AKP (socialist one's now vote for HDP).

- Actively supporting Jihadist groups, possibly including IS, in Syria.

Geopolitics. Even U.S does that. So?

- Blatantly racist against Armenians and Jews.

Oh come on.

- Constant media intimidation and censorship (another pillar of fascism).

Yeah, may be your FIRST "actual" concern with Erdogan that's relevant and valid (and not just useless rhetoric).

- Electoral fraud.

LOL. What?

He doesn't need any fraud. He is, easily, the greatest Turkish leader ever (not counting the founder of Republic). AKP has consistently gotten near 50% votes in referendums, elections, local bodies, and so on.

There is zero evidence of any large scale electoral fraud. You look exactly those kind of lunatics who were crying "electoral fraud" after Obama defeated Romney in 2012 lol...

The guy is a neo-Ottoman thug. I sincerely hope Putin takes him and his party out.

LMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yeah, Putin will do some magic tricks and AKP/Erdogan would be ousted from Turkey.

C'mon

[ONtop888]

LOL @ you whitewashing all his evils.

The bad
- Engaging in a culture war against the secular, educated class of Turkey - you know, the ones who produce everything.
- Moving towards mixing religion and the state, much like the GOP in the US.
- Trying actively to increase executive power and degrade the balance of powers.
- The Kurds were simply used by Erdogan to gain power, now he disposes of them as they are no longer useful.
- Actively supporting Jihadist groups, possibly including IS, in Syria.
- Blatantly racist against Armenians and Jews.
- Constant media intimidation and censorship (another pillar of fascism).
- Electoral fraud.

The guy is a neo-Ottoman thug. I sincerely hope Putin takes him and his party out.

Co-signed x100.

[IbnKutub]

Co-signed x100.

And just as oblivious as he is.

[A-GAME]

Is that possible?

Sure, anything is possible. Russia has a lot of other problems at the moment, but I get the feeling Putin is the type of guy to hold a grudge.

[Trinity1216]

Hmmmm I need to tell my family to stop breeding like rabbits then. Ok so they had a slow year in births in Italy, death also slowed down. One year does not constitute the end of a Country.



It reminds me of Chicken Little and the Sky is Falling...........

[Dave22reborn]

And if Erdogan decides to become president for life, would that be a good thing?

[Slacker23]

(...) My point is about dying Europe demographically and how even one nation surpasses European continent in terms of adding new members to society.

And my point was quantity < quality.

[Fedex01]

And if Erdogan decides to become president for life, would that be a good thing?

F*ck Erdogan if he does something of this sort.

Erdogan is already the greatest of all time leader of Turkey. His legacy has defined Turkey and would continue to define it for decades to come. His political power is destined to stay power even after his death. He doesn't need stupid gimmicks like this.

Turkey should become a Presidential Republic with a new constitution, and Erdogan should be the President for two terms or whatever the constitution regards as constitutional limit.

[Fedex01]

And my point was quantity < quality.

Turkish culture has quality and hence it has healthy demographics.

As I said, we aren't talkin about impoverished regions with 5 kids per woman TFR.

Turkey is a developed, industrialized, and economically advanced nation with $1.5 trillion GDP on purchasing power parity for a population of 77 million people (pretty decent but not German/Japanese level advancement).

So for a country like this--situated in the doorstep of Europe and having access to European institutions--having a fertility rate of 2.17 and youthful population is pretty awesome thing. What bothers me is European failure in demography. Don't bring this quality vs quantity bullsh!t. When you have a continent of people adding barely 200k people each year, you've got a problem there buddy.

European culture is deficient and will lose out in future because it is, and always has been, the survival of the fittest. A culture, no matter how much materially advanced, can not survive in long term with such disastrous demographic performance. Actually, we already see that the indigenous European culture is being eradicated by foreign forces, globalization, and multiculturalism. Have you ever been to London? Its already majority non-English white, and foreign clothes/religious symbols/peoples are what not defined the largest capital of Europe.

Sad.

[Fedex01]

Hmmmm I need to tell my family to stop breeding like rabbits then. Ok so they had a slow year in births in Italy, death also slowed down. One year does not constitute the end of a Country.



It reminds me of Chicken Little and the Sky is Falling...........

Its not about literal death of Italy but that of stature.

In 1960 for example, there were more Italians in the world than Turks. Italy was miles ahead of Turkey in terms of overall national power and relevance on global scale.

Today, Turkey sustains a bigger population than Italy and has left Italy way behind in terms of national power, global relevance, and military might. And has the momentum with it.

[juicebrah92]

erdogan islamification of turkey will single handedly turn turkey into a 3rd world country