The New Christian Thread 4

[lasher]

count me in as well.

Ishtar is the pagan goddess of sex, fertility and war.

*yawn*

[magog704]

*yawn*

do you do like a vigil thing or anything on saturday?

[Bullroarer]

I miss the Jesus Seminar. There was a time when you could expect them to publicize some controversial statement about the gospels guaranteed to irritate believers every year at Easter. These Easter-is-pagan debates are okay but they just ain't the same. It's like they don't even try anymore.

[lasher]

do you do like a vigil thing or anything on saturday?

I'm planning on attending the sat. evening service.

I miss the Jesus Seminar. There was a time when you could expect them to publicize some controversial statement about the gospels guaranteed to irritate believers every year
at Easter. These Easter-is-pagan debates are okay but just ain't the same.

lulz the JS were irl trolls. I liked some of crossan's books though.

[Harbinger]

*yawn*

Just out of curiosity, do you deny that Easter has its origins in paganism?

[lasher]

Just out of curiosity, do you deny that Easter has its origins in paganism?

Origins? Yes. I deny that. It has it's origins in Pascha, the Passover/Resurrection.

Did the early Christians go borg mode on the culture around them? Sure, no doubt. But as David Bentley Hart points out ... "who cares?". They took the pagan symbols and institutions around them and gave them a nice Christian make over. All your cultural symbols are belong to us now.

Some Christians, it is my experience, become terribly anxious when confronted by the similarities between the language of Christianity in the early centuries and that of many of the pagan devotions of late antiquity (just as certain of Christianity’s cultured despisers rejoice in them). And, of course, some of the more primitivist strains of Protestantism have historically take these similarities as proof of something corrupt and even perhaps diabolical in the Catholic forms of Christian belief and observance.

Whatever the case, it is simply a fact that neither in the intensity of its piety, nor in the spiritual longings it answered, nor even in its liturgical and sacramental conventions, did Christianity bring something entirely novel into the world. As early as the late first century, Christianity was in very many places”morphologically, but also in its dogma”a “mystery religion” of a sort known throughout the empire, offering salvation through sacramental initiation into a corporate association and sacramental devotion to a savior deity.

And it would be pointless to deny that, say, the iconography of Isis and Osiris might conceivably have influenced later Christian iconography of Mary and Christ, or that something of the ancient reverence for the Magna Mater deorum lived on in Christian veneration of the Mater Dei ”radically transformed perhaps, redeemed if one likes, flowering into a new kind of devotional beauty, but springing up from the same roots of spiritual longing and imagination.

I mention all this now because I happened to be in the U.K. this last week, at the book festival in Hay-on-Wye, and met a man who had written a book supposedly “exposing” Christianity as a collection of borrowings from paganism, and therefore as clearly false. I pointed out to him, not really very gently, that such books had been written hundreds of times before, and that even the best of them proved nothing of any interest other than the obvious truth that Christianity’s earliest religious forms were not wholly alien to the culture in which they took shape. He, however, insisted that he had proved the case against the Christian religion with unanswerable finality. I insisted in turn that I needed a cup of coffee and left him to himself.

The gospel entered the ancient world at a time of tremendous religious plurality and spiritual ferment: an age of religious anxiety, when mystery religions, Orphic cults, Gnosticisms, and innumerable devotional sects multiplied uncontrollably and continuously throughout the empire. And I suppose one can look at the issue from either direction. One can gaze backward and conclude that the rise of Christianity was simply the accidental evolutionary consequence of the cultural forces of a certain period and nothing else.

But one might also conclude that Christianity endured, spread, and ultimately succeeded in large part because it provided an answer to seemingly unanswerable cultural and spiritual dilemmas, and addressed certain perennial human yearnings with perhaps unrivalled power. What one thinks that says about the gospel, however, is all very much a matter of what one understands nature, culture, and history to be.

[magog704]

Did the early Christians go borg mode on the culture around them? Sure, no doubt. But as David Bentley Hart points out ... "who cares?". They took the pagan symbols and institutions around them and gave them a nice Christian make over. All your cultural symbols are belong to us now.

i am interested in this.

“America has no permanent friends or enemies, only interests” -Henry Kissinger

dat advanced strategy

[Bullroarer]

Just out of curiosity, do you deny that Easter has its origins in paganism?

The Jews have a holiday they celebrate every year around this time called 'Passover.' In Hebrew, it's called Pesach. The Greek and old Latin name for Easter is 'Pascha,' which just so happens to mean 'Passover.' Coincidence?

J/k they probably stole it from the pagans.

[Harbinger]

Origins? Yes. I deny that. It has it's origins in Pascha, the Passover/Resurrection.

Did the early Christians go borg mode on the culture around them? Sure, no doubt. But as David Bentley Hart points out ... "who cares?". They took the pagan symbols and institutions around them and gave them a nice Christian make over. All your cultural symbols are belong to us now.

I'm willing to believe that this is true.

[access1denied]

The Jews have a holiday they celebrate every year around this time called 'Passover.' In Hebrew, it's called Pesach. The Greek and old Latin name for Easter is 'Pascha,' which just so happens to mean 'Passover.' Coincidence?

J/k they probably stole it from the pagans.

I wish the "Easter is pagan zOMG" crowd would at least get their paganisms right. It has nothing to do with Mesopotamian fertility deities lol.

[Bullroarer]

Origins? Yes. I deny that. It has it's origins in Pascha, the Passover/Resurrection.

Did the early Christians go borg mode on the culture around them? Sure, no doubt. But as David Bentley Hart points out ... "who cares?". They took the pagan symbols and institutions around them and gave them a nice Christian make over. All your cultural symbols are belong to us now.

Inb4 red hard-boiled eggs are inherently pagan

There's a couple tacit assumptions going on in that accusation about Easter and paganism that people don't think about.

1) That Christianity's supposed to look like Protestantism, and to the extent that it doesn't, it must have drawn from paganism.
2) That it's somehow possible to have a religion that doesn't look anything like the culture it grew up in. But I can't think of a single American religion that doesn't have American values or traits.
3) That Judaism was more different from paganism than it really was. There are significant differences between them, but there were also major similarities and IMO in some cases Christianity gets accused of stealing from paganism when it was really taking things from Jewish religion that weren't too far off from paganism to begin with. Pascha's one of those things.

[lasher]

I wish the "Easter is pagan zOMG" crowd would at least get their paganisms right. It has nothing to do with Mesopotamian fertility deities lol.

but bruh

East-er

Isht-ar


come on bruv

Inb4 red hard-boiled eggs are inherently pagan

There's a couple tacit assumptions going on in that accusation about Easter and paganism that people don't think about.

1) That Christianity's supposed to look like Protestantism, and to the extent that it doesn't, it must have drawn from paganism.
2) That it's somehow possible to have a religion that doesn't look anything like the culture it grew up in. But I can't think of a single American religion that doesn't have American values or traits.
3) That Judaism was more different from paganism than it really was. There are significant differences between them, but there were also major similarities and IMO in some cases Christianity gets accused of stealing from paganism when it was really taking things from Jewish religion that weren't too far off from paganism to begin with. Pascha's one of those things.

Good observations. Basically the same as what Hart is saying, minus the mention of Judiasm.

[Bullroarer]

Good observations. Basically the same as what Hart is saying, minus the mention of Judiasm.

Hart's right but that's still a problem for Christianity, to wit: Christianity is just the religious and intellectual furniture of the ancient world rearranged and made to look different. A cake and a doughnut may look different, but in the end they're both just different ways of combining flour and sugar. Your stomach doesn't know the difference. That's actually one of my main problems with Christianity.

[CalmWind]

found this pic while reading an article and immediately thought of the misc R/P

[MuscleXtreme]

but bruh

East-er

Isht-ar


come on bruv

You know what's interesting and what a lot of tards don't consider is that English hasn't been around all that long to have been able to steal the word "ishtar" and anglicize it to "easter".

Old English had the word "Eastre", but old English didn't come along until at the very earliest 650 ad, which is based off the germania languages. With German, having the word "Ostern" for easter.

Now to me ishtar and Ostern aren't all that close sounding, nor even spelled similarly.

[Harbinger]

Can anyone tell me if this bracelet has any religious significance.

Anyone?

[lasher]

Not that I know of. I'm diggin' the scale pattern.

[Harbinger]

Not that I know of. I'm diggin' the scale pattern.

It's woven leather.

I wouldn't mind if it were religious. I only ask because a co-worker was admiring it and said, "now all you need is a blessings bracelet." I Googled it and I like several of them, one looked similar to mine.

[Stizzel]

Jesus Of Nazareth, Enemy Of The State, Executed For Treason

Jesus of Nazareth was executed today on the orders of the Roman State. Method of execution: Crucifixion. The charge under Roman law was treason, and under Herodian law blasphemy against the Temple. The evidence against this anarchist was so strong that authorities of both the Roman State and the Kingdom of Herod concurred with the arrest and execution, and he was subjected to trial by both governments. And in a rare uprising of spontaneous collective justice, the mass of people who were gathered for Passover called for his execution as well. The mob affirmed their loyalty to the state, chanting, “We have no king but Caesar.”

Friday’s execution ended a career as an anti-government agitator with a long history of lawlessness. The family was in possession of falsified, illegal, and unsanctioned genealogical records which claim to indicate that Jesus was of royal lineage, and undermined the legitimate claim of Herod to the throne. The malicious claim, which has been spread widely among the people, is that the King is an Idumean and not a Jew. The king is tormented by this claim, and laments that shortly after his father’s rise to power the genealogical records (which would certainly have proven his legitimate right to reign) perished in a mysterious fire, likely set by anti-government agitators.

Even as a young child, Jesus was recognized as an enemy of the state and was sentenced to death by the current King’s predecessor, Herod the Great. Subversive foreign agents lied to the king, and with their help Jesus and his family escaped the lawful orders of the government authority by illegally emigrating to Egypt, where they remained in hiding until the death of the king. Afterwards they are known to have illegally immigrated back into greater Israel, where they settled in Galilee, toward the edge of the kingdom, and far from the swift justice of the capital region.

Jesus, who is also treasonously called The Christ by his followers, embarked on a public career roughly three years ago, with the assistance of his cousin, John, who himself was executed by the state for lack of respect for the office of the king.

Jesus’ criminal career included public insults of the king (calling Herod a ‘fox’ and ‘a reed blowing in the wind’), implying that the Roman state was under God and not properly the other way around, harassment of government officials including at least one tax collector and one Sanhedrin member, as well as ordering and/or encouraging them to remit wealth back to the people from whom it was lawfully taxed. He was also guilty of a series of actions which treasonously called into legitimacy organs of the state such as Herod’s Temple. For example, he offered forgiveness and fellowship with God to sinners, violating the temple monopoly of public expiation and forgiveness. Furthermore, he illegally trespassed on government property and interfered with state-sanctioned money-changing operations which were properly operating with the permission of the appointees of the king at state-approved exchange rates.

He was able for a time to avoid arrest through a tactic of cleverly disguising his anti-government propaganda in the form of coded answers, suggestive but ambiguous analogies, and confusing aphorisms, by which he managed to gather a following without giving clear evidence of his treasonous views. However, his anti-government propaganda eventually became undeniable: Predicting the destruction of Herod’s temple, and even denying its legitimacy, declaring it to be “desolate.”

His execution was swift and merciless, and his disciples have been scattered. Authorities are confident that his name will quickly be forgotten, while Rome, the eternal city, will last forever. The temple built on the power of the Roman state and Herodian kingship will stand forever. Authorities assure the people that the ultimate punishment on which all state power rests, death by execution, is the final word on this short episode in Roman history.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jerrybow...d-for-treason/

[sawoobley]

It's woven leather.

I wouldn't mind if it were religious. I only ask because a co-worker was admiring it and said, "now all you need is a blessings bracelet." I Googled it and I like several of them, one looked similar to mine.

Unless it has an inscription, cross, fish or dove on it its probably just a generic woven leather bracelet.

http(s)://www.etsy.com/listing/173113226/noamk-2014-hypoallergenic-handmade-men?ref=market
http://www.amazon.com/Oxford-Ivy-Bra...8116667&sr=1-8
http://www.amazon.com/Black-Braided-.../dp/B002QYDFMS

[lasher]

[sawoobley]

[Harbinger]

^^^ it was really more like 36 hours.

so even cooler

[CalmWind]

Interesting that two of the largest and most influential empires of the ancient world, were both used to spread a part of God's plan.

First, Alexander the Great's empire helped spread the Old Covenant. producing the Septuagint in Greek

and next, many centuries later, the Roman Empire helped spread the New Covenant

[Harbinger]

lasher what happened to your angry little former atheist buddy?

[CalmWind]

Tomorrow 9pm on NBC, new mini-series premieres, focused on the events after the resurrection !

[Bullroarer]

Was wondering what happened to genocidal_misc too.

[MuscleXtreme]

[QUOTE=CalmWind;1352998911]Tomorrow 9pm on NBC, new mini-series premieres, focused on the events after the resurrection !

[/QUOTE


I'm going to try and remember to tune in to this.

I remember when the last one came out and it was absolutely huge. Glad to see a major network has picked it up.

[Ehsaun]

lasher what happened to your angry little former atheist buddy?

are you talking about athan?

[CalmWind]

- when you see an atheist making it a point to use "BCE" and "CE" in all of his references to a specific year, because he hates the idea of using AD and BC