I was listening to NPR this morning and they were talking about Heather Cook. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/0...n_7192268.html
The new suffragan said something to the effect of, we tend to (inappropriately) hold people of the cloth to a higher standard that what is humanly possible? That seemed really bullshiitty to me. I won't ask of a person anything I wouldn't do myself. If you are a drunk, in my opinion, you can't be much of a preacher.
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Thread: The New Christian Thread 4
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05-26-2015, 11:02 AM #1141
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05-26-2015, 11:41 AM #1142
Didn't hear of this, but I am actually a little surprised that the Episcopalian church actually defrocked her.
If you're a person in power then it is only natural for you to be held to a high standard. Your position grants you more responsibilities over other, and sets you as a role model to others. We shouldn't forget that those in elevated positions are fallible people, but at the end of the day a higher standard is implemented when your position is elevated in some setting.Pureblood
¡Viva Cristo Rey!
Он не человек, он как кусок железа
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05-26-2015, 11:54 AM #1143
The pictures on the internet look beautiful. Clear looking water seems so alien to me. The ocean to me is always this very harsh and impenetrable thing (NC beaches are wonderful, but there is no looking around under the water. You wouldn't see one foot in front of your face...)
EX IGNORANTIA AD SAPIENTIAM
EX LUCE AD TENERBRAS
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05-27-2015, 07:11 AM #1144
I don't know if this is what you are looking for, but here is what the CCC says.
"1377 The Eucharistic presence of Christ begins at the moment of the consecration and endures as long as the Eucharistic species subsist. Christ is present whole and entire in each of the species and whole and entire in each of their parts, in such a way that the breaking of the bread does not divide Christ. "
The species can only subsist while the bread and wine retain their physical attributes. Digestion would cause the bread and wine to lose the attributes, and with those physical properties lost the real presence is lost as well.'On many levels, mathematics itself operates as Whiteness. Who gets credit for doing and developing mathematics, who is capable in mathematics, and who is seen as part of the mathematical community is generally viewed as White' - Rochelle Gutierrez, Professor of Mathematics at the University of Illinois.
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05-27-2015, 05:38 PM #1145
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05-27-2015, 05:46 PM #1146Whats Your Theological Deal-Killer?
JOHN ZMIRAK
Sitting over an overpriced gin and tonic at the Polo Lounge in the Beverly Hills Hotel, I probed the excommunicated bishop about his secret sedevacantism. I didnt toss the issue naked on the table, since he would simply have denied everything. But I knew from several sources that, while the man publicly claimed to accept the legitimacy of then-Pope John Paul II, privately he sowed doubts among his friendlier seminarians. He whispered that the formal and material heresies taught by that pope had quite possibly deprived Karol Wotyjla of the throne. That would have left the seat (sede) of Peter empty (vacantes). A small but intense contingent of Traditionalists have held this position for decades, although the public leader of that movement, Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, always insisted that his resistance to Popes Paul VI and John Paul II amounted to true (versus false) obedience, carried out in a grave emergency situation for the Church akin to the Arian heresy, when St. Athanasius refused commands from the dithering Pope Liberius.
Archbishop Lefebvres was an emotionally stressful position to hold, since commitment to Catholic tradition encourages us to maximize the authority of the pope which is hard to do when youre defying direct papal commands and ignoring the bishops he has appointed. One can square this circle neatly by saying instead that Catholics should always obey the pope, and that God prevents popes from making decisions catastrophic to the Church such as the vandalization of the Roman Rite of the Mass. The pope deserves our veneration and our respect. The pope would never allow such a development of doctrine as Vatican IIs decree on religious liberty. Therefore, we havent had a valid pope since Pius XII.
I think that this sad conclusion is encouraged by the happy fact that, since the Counter-Reformation, we have had a very good run of largely prudent, often saintly popes. People tempted by this position need to read a little further back for instance, one of my favorite books for understanding the extent and limits of papal authority, Russell Chamberlains The Bad Popes. This grimly funny chronicle of the felonies of popes in the distant past is a nice corrective to the temptation to treat every papal opinion as dogmatic and to canonize every pontiff on his deathbed. It will vaccinate the reader against the dismal disappointment that comes when one forms a cult of personality around a mere mortal man.
There are plenty of wacky stories about sedevacantists getting valid episcopal orders through squirrelly means, or even electing their own popes since hey, its clear that the Church always needs one! But Im not here to make fun of such people. If you grant their premises, their conclusions seem to follow. And the pastoral abuse suffered by Catholics for the past four decades at the hands of real live heretical nuns, liturgists, catechists, priests, and bishops was so widespread and egregious that I think Christ will be very forgiving of their traumatized victims.
What I wanted to know from the bishop was this: If you really believe that a validly elected pope has embraced and taught formal heresy, doesnt that shake your faith in the papacy itself? Isnt it kind of a cop-out to make such grand claims for papal authority and then when a pope seems to misuse it, to simply claim that hes no longer pope? Wouldnt it be more intellectually honest, at some point, to opt out and become, say, Eastern Orthodox? Youd still have the Sacraments, and all the Christological councils. Thats where I would go if, per impossibile, some future pope ordained a woman. Or a tuba.
The bishop pointed out that none of Paul VIs or John Paul IIs heretical statements were given ex cathedra. Okay, I countered, but what if one of them had been? What if the pope tomorrow were to stand up and proclaim, ex cathedra, that abortion was morally licit? Or (to sharpen the point still further) that Mary had not in fact been assumed into heaven? Would that convince him to reject papal authority? What hypothetical circumstance would convince him that the Roman reading of Christs promises to Peter had in fact been exaggerated?
The bishop was offended by the question. He insisted that such a thing would never happen. I agreed, then said: But what if it did? He refused to entertain such a blasphemous hypothetical. I insisted that he must. Is your position really that the pope teaches infallibly, except when he doesnt and then hes no longer pope? That seems like kind of a sad loophole through which to save your faith. We argue for the primacy of Peter by pointing to a perfect historical consistency of doctrinal teaching coming from Rome. If that consistency were broken, would we just look for other arguments instead? He shook his head and we shook hands.
This incident sparked me to start thinking, intensively for many years, about precisely such blasphemous hypotheticals and troubling counterfactuals, and wondering which ones for me would be theological deal-killers. Just as St. Thomas Aquinas looked for the best arguments against the Faith so he could counter them, I decided to deepen my own faith by considering just what it would take for me decide that the Church had, in fact, been wrong. Or else that I had mistaken the nature of the Church, and it might reside somewhere else than Id been brought up to believe.
It might sound like Im looking around for a fire exit, finding potential excuses for flouncing off someday into a Tibetan Buddhist temple, or a flashy Ground Zero mosque. Not at all. Instead, as someone who writes apologetics, Im trying to keep my arguments honest and make sure that I never squirm through loopholes such as the excommunicated bishop used. I also want to be ready to counter the strongest objections to the teachings of the Church and to correct exaggerations that well-meaning people draw from one-sided readings of Church documents. Some of those exaggerated positions are popular among the folks I meet at Latin Mass up here in New England; and to be honest, when I hear what they believe our Church really teaches, I encounter a theological deal-killer. I say to myself, I dont think that the Church teaches that, but I know it cant be true. That sends me back to the sources, to read the Churchs full teaching in its true context. I think mine is the best response to intellectual doubts. Next week, Ill go through a list of what I and some friends consider deal-killers and explore the faithful Catholic answers. In the meantime, I invite readers to post their own to clarify their faith and make it more tangible by marking out its rational limits.
Of course, some people think its virtuous to beat their intellects into submission, along the lines of Rex Mottram in Waughs Brideshead Revisited. Rex is an opportunistic convert with an expansive notion of the virtue of docility. As the priest trying to instruct Mottram recounts:
Yesterday I asked him whether Our Lord had more than one nature. He said: Just as many as you say, Father. Then again I asked him: Supposing the Pope looked up and saw a cloud and said Its going to rain, would that be bound to happen? Oh, yes, Father. But supposing it didnt? He thought a moment and said, I suppose it would be sort of raining spiritually, only we were too sinful to see it.'
If you dont have, at least in theory, any theological deal-killers, then youre in grave danger of joining Rex Mottram, out in the rain.
http://www.crisismagazine.com/2010/w...al-deal-killer'On many levels, mathematics itself operates as Whiteness. Who gets credit for doing and developing mathematics, who is capable in mathematics, and who is seen as part of the mathematical community is generally viewed as White' - Rochelle Gutierrez, Professor of Mathematics at the University of Illinois.
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05-27-2015, 06:03 PM #1147
Nah, there is so much tourist revenue that Cancun brings in, that it's pretty safe. Plus it's way out of the way for the drug trade, and with all the tourism, it's pretty safe.
The State Department puts out a list on the safety level for the various Mexican states, and Quintana Roo (The state Cancun is in), had no warnings at all.Pureblood
¡Viva Cristo Rey!
Он не человек, он как кусок железа
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05-27-2015, 06:06 PM #1148
Nice find, I am in total agreement with:
This incident sparked me to start thinking, intensively for many years, about precisely such blasphemous hypotheticals and troubling counterfactuals, and wondering which ones for me would be “theological deal-killers.” Just as St. Thomas Aquinas looked for the best arguments against the Faith so he could counter them, I decided to deepen my own faith by considering just what it would take for me decide that the Church had, in fact, been wrong. Or else that I had mistaken the nature of the Church, and it might reside somewhere else than I’d been brought up to believe.
It might sound like I’m looking around for a fire exit, finding potential excuses for flouncing off someday into a Tibetan Buddhist temple, or a flashy Ground Zero mosque. Not at all. Instead, as someone who writes apologetics, I’m trying to keep my arguments honest and make sure that I never squirm through loopholes such as the excommunicated bishop used. I also want to be ready to counter the strongest objections to the teachings of the Church and to correct exaggerations that well-meaning people draw from one-sided readings of Church documents. Some of those exaggerated positions are popular among the folks I meet at Latin Mass up here in New England; and to be honest, when I hear what they believe our Church really teaches, I encounter a “theological deal-killer.” I say to myself, “I don’t think that the Church teaches that, but I know it can’t be true.” That sends me back to the sources, to read the Church’s full teaching in its true context. I think mine is the best response to intellectual doubts. Next week, I’ll go through a list of what I and some friends consider “deal-killers” and explore the faithful Catholic answers. In the meantime, I invite readers to post their own — to clarify their faith and make it more tangible by marking out its rational limits.Pureblood
¡Viva Cristo Rey!
Он не человек, он как кусок железа
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05-27-2015, 06:21 PM #1149'On many levels, mathematics itself operates as Whiteness. Who gets credit for doing and developing mathematics, who is capable in mathematics, and who is seen as part of the mathematical community is generally viewed as White' - Rochelle Gutierrez, Professor of Mathematics at the University of Illinois.
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05-27-2015, 06:40 PM #1150
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05-27-2015, 06:41 PM #1151
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05-27-2015, 07:03 PM #1152
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I don't think there's anything unnatural about the divine. I think the divine is the nature from whence all other natures are possible.
"What did he steal?"
"My innocence."
You're assuming things have an explanation at all. Why would you do that?
If things do not have explanations at all, then almost all patterns -- especially including the patterns of physical law, mathematical law and cause and effect -- are inherently false. If we reject the assumption that things generally do have explanations, there goes philosophy, math and science, at which point this discussion becomes full retard.
Once you accept logic as legit then you are controlled like a robot as easily as somebody can make something appear logical. This can be even more powerful when God is the one making logic legit. It's something to keep in mind.
I'm not suggesting you start being illogical. I do suggest that any arguments for God are logically misguided...and we're not likely to agree because we don't agree what is God and what does God do...
It sounds like you're saying arguments for God are logically misguided either on the basis of them being arguments for God or on the basis of them being arguments that could affect control.
I don't conclude that. It would be foolish to do so. However I present that hypothetical conclusion as a more defensible version in place of any other person who wanted to try.
I believe you have mistaken the job of atheists in general. Atheists kill invisible people.
That's the job of the atheists. And they are excellent invisible person assassins.
That's it.
It's not the job of the atheist to figure out the clusterfuk of language you are turning necessary/contingent into.
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05-27-2015, 07:17 PM #1153
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05-27-2015, 08:04 PM #1154
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05-28-2015, 03:58 AM #1155
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05-28-2015, 05:26 AM #1156
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05-28-2015, 06:06 AM #1157
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05-28-2015, 06:14 PM #1158
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05-28-2015, 06:19 PM #1159
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05-28-2015, 07:21 PM #1160
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05-28-2015, 08:46 PM #1161
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05-28-2015, 09:04 PM #1162
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05-29-2015, 11:04 AM #1163
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05-29-2015, 01:30 PM #1164
'On many levels, mathematics itself operates as Whiteness. Who gets credit for doing and developing mathematics, who is capable in mathematics, and who is seen as part of the mathematical community is generally viewed as White' - Rochelle Gutierrez, Professor of Mathematics at the University of Illinois.
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05-29-2015, 02:57 PM #1165
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05-29-2015, 03:16 PM #1166
btw Bose, if you were looking for a Christian occasionalist, Malebranche is your boy.
'On many levels, mathematics itself operates as Whiteness. Who gets credit for doing and developing mathematics, who is capable in mathematics, and who is seen as part of the mathematical community is generally viewed as White' - Rochelle Gutierrez, Professor of Mathematics at the University of Illinois.
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05-29-2015, 03:37 PM #1167
das it mane.
Anyways, I read a lot about the prophecies in Isaiah and I still can't believe that the Jews crucified and rejected Jesus as their Messiah. I mean, Isaiah can't get any more clearer of the guy's description. Isaiah literally gives us an entire template for the guy.
- The Messiah will be of virgin birth.
- The Messiah will be an heir of the House of David.
- Then Messiah will begin with a Galilean ministry.
- The Messiah will be widely rejected, ridiculed, beaten and disfigured.
- The Messiah will make a blood atonement.
- The Messiah will be buried in a rich man's tomb.
And these are just some, not all. I still cannot understand the Jew thought process after all these years.Megalomaniac crew
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05-29-2015, 03:50 PM #1168
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05-29-2015, 03:59 PM #1169
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05-29-2015, 04:25 PM #1170
His answers make sense since he's using the Torah to justify them. Some of the answers, like men forgiving sin, will be sure to rustle some jimmies.
He compared Jesus to the Hindus lol.
One thing I don't agree with him tho is that we don't worship the Father. I thought we all prayed thru Jesus in order to reach the Father. That's how I do it anyways. I think the Jews suffer from the same thing Muslims do, they think we worship 3 gods.Megalomaniac crew
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