"Lengthy" Contracts Should Be Extinct

[RamsdenF]

If you are someone who still uses "lengthy" contracts in order to "lock in" a client for a set period of time.....you are outdated.

This is JUST ONE of many selfish/greedy tactics used by fitness professionals. The purpose of a contract for say 6 months....is to lock up consistent income. Nothing more, nothing less. It FAVORS the trainer and NOT the client. What happens when a client is all gun hoe and signs up for 12 months....then realizes 2 months in things won't work out? Ill tell you what happens....TOO BAD FOR THE CLIENT. Their only escape is a LARGE buyout fee.

Let me pose this question to those of you who still use this tactic. Do you admit doing it purely for the guaranteed income? Or is there some other reason you do it?

For those who no longer/never did use this tactic....talk about why. I don't use length contracts because I actually WANT my clients to be here. I don't want to force them to workout just because of some contract. Besides, this will make them disgruntled and spread bad reputation to friends and family.

[KyleAaron]

Ramsden, your lack of experience at big gyms is showing again: The commitment is for the client's benefit, they won't get anywhere if they don't show up. And most people, given the choice, won't show up. Big gyms actually bank on it, but their personal trainers need the opposite, which is the contradiction in fitness nobody speaks about.

When I worked at the big gym, they had two basic options for PT sessions: paying casually, or direct debit. With a casual payment, the person paid for each session as they did it. With direct debit, the PT payments were like their normal gym fees, they'd just sign up for X sessions a fortnight and the payment would go out automatically; like their gym payment, they could suspend or cancel this at any time.

The casual payers attended less regularly and were more likely to quit, usually without telling the trainer first. This is because people's energy and mood varies day-to-day. If today they just don't feel like working out, they don't. "I want them to WANT to be there." Sure, but even the most keen person is going to have bad days when they don't want to be there. So the person doesn't come in. Now, the rule was that if they miss a session with less than 24 hours' notice, they have to pay for it anyway, you were supposed to demand payment before giving them another session. In practice, doing so would lead to the client never coming in again, so you lost the money for that session and any possible future sessions, and the client didn't get the results they wanted - everyone loses.

So you set aside time for a person, time which could have gone to someone else, maybe you got up at 5 for them - and they don't come in, and you don't get paid, and they don't get their workout. Everyone loses. We all know that paying casually leads to people slacking off. How many gyms just let you pay only when you come in for a workout? No large gym would survive a month with that business model.

Direct debit meant that they were paying whether they showed up or not. This gave them an incentive not to hit the snooze button, and to come in whether they felt like it or not. And the trainer would get paid either way. But those who weren't really interested, as I said, could suspend or cancel their payments at any time. So while the 12 month retention rate for casuals was about 1 in 6, for direct debit was 1 in 3 for even the truly crappy trainers, and 2 in 3 for the better ones.

And guess what? The people who had even a crappy trainer got better results than the people who trained on their own, since at least they kept showing up and doing something more-or-less hard, whereas those on their own almost all didn't show up, or if they did show up didn't push themselves hard.

People have inertia, which is the tendency to keep moving in the same direction at the same speed unless acted on by an external force. In other words, they usually take no action. If the "action" is "buy another ticket", they'll tend not to do it. If the "action" is "put a stop on my direct debits", they'll tend not to do it. So the direct debits were an open-ended commitment which they were more likely to follow. And again, those who are committed get results. So I don't think we need to justify ourselves - the commitment is for the client's benefit, they won't get anywhere if they don't show up.

Nowadays I have a small garage gym. People pay about half what they do for personal training at the big gym since they're in small groups and it's just a garage. They pay three months in advance, we go by seasons. But the first consult is free, and they can come in while all the regulars are here and talk to everyone, so they should have a pretty good idea as to whether the training is effective and they'll get along with everyone.

I ask for a three month commitment because in practice that's about the time it takes to see any significant change. If they won't commit that long then good luck to them, but I'm not interested in working with them. If I wanted to spend my days around people who were not really interested and couldn't be bothered with it all, I could have stayed at the big gym. I don't expect people to be psycho-motivated athletes... just to show up. If you're having a crappy day then fine, we'll go easy, but you'll still do something.

[RamsdenF]

The commitment is for the client's benefit, they won't get anywhere if they don't show up. And most people, given the choice, won't show up. Big gyms actually bank on it, but their personal trainers need the opposite, which is the contradiction in fitness nobody speaks about.

I knew this would actually be a talking point by the pro-lengthy contract crowd.

Let me tell ya something. If you have to force your clients to show up(especially in the first few months, when enthusiasm should be high) then either you're doing something wrong or they are not serious about getting into shape. It's NOT the trainers job to "force" anybody into anything. Since when does Australia act like Russia? This is exactly equivalent to the US government forcing me to buy healthcare because THEY think they know what's best for me. Why would you even want to work with a client like this? Shouldn't you want clients to be excited? I know your pessimistic and all when it comes to clients and their ability to do anything right (diet), but believe it or not there are actually people excited to embark on a fitness journey. So enough with the "ohhhh its what's best for them *wink wink*".

The casual payers attended less regularly and were more likely to quit, usually without telling the trainer first. This is because people's energy and mood varies day-to-day. If today they just don't feel like working out, they don't. "I want them to WANT to be there." Sure, but even the most keen person is going to have bad days when they don't want to be there. So the person doesn't come in. Now, the rule was that if they miss a session with less than 24 hours' notice, they have to pay for it anyway, you were supposed to demand payment before giving them another session. In practice, doing so would lead to the client never coming in again, so you lost the money for that session and any possible future sessions, and the client didn't get the results they wanted - everyone loses.

So you set aside time for a person, time which could have gone to someone else, maybe you got up at 5 for them - and they don't come in, and you don't get paid, and they don't get their workout. Everyone loses. We all know that paying casually leads to people slacking off. How many gyms just let you pay only when you come in for a workout? No large gym would survive a month with that business model.

This is certainly a big problem when it comes to personal training. I don't think it justifies making people sign lengthy contracts though.


Why not just make them pay upfront for the month? Takes care of the unpaid sessions and doesn't require a lengthy contract to accomplish.

Direct debit meant that they were paying whether they showed up or not. This gave them an incentive not to hit the snooze button, and to come in whether they felt like it or not. And the trainer would get paid either way. But those who weren't really interested, as I said, could suspend or cancel their payments at any time. So while the 12 month retention rate for casuals was about 1 in 6, for direct debit was 1 in 3 for even the truly crappy trainers, and 2 in 3 for the better ones.

I'd like you to clarify something for me. I have zero issue with direct debit by the way. But in your contracts do you just let clients out free of extra charges for early termination? For instance in a 12 month contract you mention they can "cancel at any time". Is there a penalty for doing this?

And guess what? The people who had even a crappy trainer got better results than the people who trained on their own, since at least they kept showing up and doing something more-or-less hard, whereas those on their own almost all didn't show up, or if they did show up didn't push themselves hard.

I'm not arguing against this. Obviously if a client doesn't workout with their trainer they wont get better results than if they were on their own.

Nowadays I have a small garage gym. People pay about half what they do for personal training at the big gym since they're in small groups and it's just a garage. They pay three months in advance, we go by seasons. But the first consult is free, and they can come in while all the regulars are here and talk to everyone, so they should have a pretty good idea as to whether the training is effective and they'll get along with everyone.

I still want to know why you do 3 month contracts but allow individuals to cancel any time without penalty? Why not just go month to month and direct debit them at the beginning of each month?

This thread was aimed more at trainers trying to "lock" clients down for 6-12months and load the contract up with tons of fees for startup and early cancellation etc.

You seem more on page with me actually from what I can tell. The whole "Russia" point earlier may not be a bit harsh seeing as you only do 3 months compared to 12, but I will leave it because it is a mindset thing. I still disagree with it as a premise.

[jonmd123]

Exactly what Kyle said.

When I first started I offered prepaid packages that clients could use at their leisure. No contract, no commitment. Some people got good results, but many were very inconsistent. Many people would train for 1-2 months, get results, quit for 1-2 months, get fat, and then start over again from square one. My income was inconsistent from month to month and my clients' results suffered.

Now I charge clients by the month with a 3 month initial commitment (after that they go month-to-month). As a result, my clients train more often at a cheaper rate per session with much greater results. In return, I get a steady monthly income, my clients train with me longer, and I get more referrals.

[RamsdenF]

Exactly what Kyle said.

When I first started I offered prepaid packages that clients could use at their leisure. No contract, no commitment. Some people got good results, but many were very inconsistent. Many people would train for 1-2 months, get results, quit for 1-2 months, get fat, and then start over again from square one. My income was inconsistent from month to month and my clients' results suffered.

Now I charge clients by the month with a 3 month initial commitment (after that they go month-to-month). As a result, my clients train more often at a cheaper rate per session with much greater results. In return, I get a steady monthly income, my clients train with me longer, and I get more referrals.

Ya, again I don't have a problem with this. I think that's fair.

My only question to Kyle and I'll ask you the same....what happens if someone wants out after the first month? Do you let them free of charge? Or do you charge them still for the remaining two months and/or access "penalty fees" ?

[jonmd123]

Ya, again I don't have a problem with this. I think that's fair.

My only question to Kyle and I'll ask you the same....what happens if someone wants out after the first month? Do you let them free of charge? Or do you charge them still for the remaining two months and/or access "penalty fees" ?

If they sign a contract for 3 months they are expected to train for 3 months (most end up paying for all 3 months upfront). I have never had a client not complete their 3 month commitment, but to answer your question, I would refund them their money. However, that would be strictly a business decision and not because I'm a good guy.

[KyleAaron]

If you have to force your clients to show up(especially in the first few months, when enthusiasm should be high) then either you're doing something wrong or they are not serious about getting into shape.

Who's forcing them?

Direct debit, they can cancel at any time. They just lose the rest of that fortnight, big deal.

12 months is too long, I agree. In my garage, they pay me 3 months ahead. Whatever happens they get that 3 months. If they stop coming after the first week, they wasted 12/13th of their money. If they stop coming after the 12th week, they wasted 1/13th their money. If they don't like this idea then they don't sign up in the first place. Nobody held a gun to their head and forced them to come and sign up. Hell, I turned down a guy yesterday and he was going to pay double.

If I leave a movie halfway through, can I get half my ticket price back? It's not the cinema's fault I didn't stay the whole time. If I order pumpkin soup at the restaurant then decide I'm not hungry, can I get my money back? Is it the restaurant's fault I decided I wasn't hungry?

This black & white thinking is typical of an American. It's not either they're 110% dedicated or they're useless and lazy. Most people are somewhat dedicated, everyone has good days and bad days. You get into a workout routine, you miss a day due to work, sleeping in, illness or something interesting on tv, the next workout is harder and you hurt a lot, maybe even get a small muscle pull, this makes you miss the next workout too, before you know it two weeks have gone by without doing anything. Are you lazy? No, just human. These people are not professional athletes, they're just ordinary gym-goers who want to "get fit, lose weight, tone up." It's a hobby, not a job for them.

So what we want is a workout and payment system that encourages people to stick with it. Intelligent programming and things like paying in advance.

What is this about Russia? Asking people to make a commitment and stick to it is not communism, you historically-illiterate big-mouthed oaf. Making and keeping promises is the basis of civilisation. I give you $2, you give me a pie. You pay the rent, I let you stay in my house. I share my steak with you, you share your dessert with me. We go into business together and pay half the bills each. If I take the pie and don't pay, if you pay the rent and I change the locks, if you give me dessert but I don't give you steak, if I don't pay my half of the business bills, everything turns to sht.

There are few things more ideologically conservative than the belief that we should make and keep promises and commitments to one another. Because we are sane and reasonable we understand that commitments are not permanent, and are limited by time and circumstance. But they cannot be limited merely by mood and whim, or things just don't work. Evidently you are some kind of radical liberal who believes nobody needs keep any promises to each-other, ever.

My clients pay for training, and I promise to be there for them to train them. This rather modest level of dedication and commitment to promises may be something alien to you, if so I feel sorry for your girlfriend.

Yes, there are crappy trainers out there for whom it's not worth paying months in advance. This is why the buyer must consider carefully before buying. Are you saying the typical gym-goer is too stupid to be able to use their judgment in such things? This contempt for gym-goers explains why you have to be an online trainer. They know what they're doing.

[EdgarAllanPoe]

I didn't read anything but the OP

For big gyms/chains...contracts make sense. Corporate doesn't have to deal with clients personally. Money is locked in whether client uses it or not. Smart business. Someone pays for 12 months, you have that cash regardless. If client doesn't use it then you have your trainers training other people in that time slot. Double profit. Makes all the sense in the world. It is a business after all.

Small studios, individual personal trainers. You're reputation matters a bit more. People are going to go to Anytime Fitness regardless, Golds Gym, etc. Treat clients crappy, bad business ethics, horrible word of mouth, etc...Really doesn't matter too much. Like Walmart, people aren't gonna stop going to Walmart.

If you rely on testimonials, referrals, google reviews, yelp reviews to generate business. Even if a client doesn't read the contract and its their own fault...when they go out and bad mouth you the details on your end don't really matter as the small business owner. I do month to month direct debit, people can cancel whenever. I don't have a very high turnover rate. If people make it past the first month they usually stick. I'm full at the moment.

In all honesty, I don't like having money that I haven't earned yet. I wouldn't want 20,000 at once I'd rather have 1500 over a dozen months or however that math plays out.

I stick to the policies I set out originally and don't waver. I'm very upfront about them all before clients sign up. So far have had no negative reviews. People know they're getting charged if they no show/cancel.

I think its ultimately on the customer whether they are month to month or 12 months. If you don't trick the client into anything, then its their own doing. If they signup for 12 months and quit after 1 month and lose out on 11 months of cash but you clearly told them the details. I'm sorry, but you gotta read!

You ultimately gotta make your business practices as the trainer/business owner what you're happy with and what you're confident in enforcing. From that standpoint the client doesn't matter. You have to set your own foundation. THEN the client has the right to signup or not signup as long as you're not deceptive with the terms or hidden fees or buyout fees, etc...Just be up front.

If you want 6 month commitments i wouldn't see a problem with that. I simply prefer month to month recurring billing from the start.

Even if a client signs up for 3/6/9/12 months. At some point you have to go back and sale them again on signing up. I ask for the sale one time of any client. Once they signup, they are charged on a recurring basis and that thought is gone I'm just focused on their training and food.

[RamsdenF]

You ramble quite a bit, but Ill pull out some points.

So what we want is a workout and payment system that encourages people to stick with it. Intelligent programming and things like paying in advance.

3 months commitment is fine. I'm not crazy about it, but its not worth denouncing either. Paying in advance is a MUST. Should be expected.

As far as encouraging them, I find this point intriguing coming from you. You adamantly oppose any sort of nutritional advice because you claim "most clients won't stick it anyways".....yet here you are trying to tell me you care all about if a client can stick to the workouts. So you care about them sticking to workouts(probably because you're paid for this) but not nutrition? You realize these two things go hand in hand, in regards to success right?

What is this about Russia? Asking people to make a commitment and stick to it is not communism, you historically-illiterate big-mouthed oaf. Making and keeping promises is the basis of civilisation. I give you $2, you give me a pie. You pay the rent...blah blah blah

Hey dummy, I wasn't referring to making business transactions. I was referring to this mindset:

The commitment is for the client's benefit

You act as if you know what's best for the client more than they do. It's called free choice pal.

You sit here and try to act like you're all compassionate and doing what's best for the client when in reality you want the guaranteed income of 3 months. At least have the decency to admit it.

I'm not saying you need to run your business like a Build-your-own ice cream shop with 10 different packages. But if you provide any value at all to a client they will commit themselves. They don't need you to do it for them. I run strictly month to month and HAVE NEVER had this whole "clients never commit" issue. Even if an individual did.....THAT'S ON THEM TO FIX.

Evidently you are some kind of radical liberal who believes nobody needs keep any promises to each-other, ever.

Lol....what was the bit you said earlier about ONLY Americans thinking in black and white.

I'm never mentioned breaking a contract(promise) as a solution. I'm saying an extended contract is outdated thinking and selfish. The contract is the actual issue, not the commitment to it nor the "promise" to pay for it.

My clients pay for training, and I promise to be there for them to train them. This rather modest level of dedication and commitment to promises may be something alien to you, if so I feel sorry for your girlfriend.

And here we have someone stooping to the lowest of lows. Trying to bring personal lives into a logical discussion about a business tactic. This is what I meant when I made the thread about fitness professionals being overly emotional. Here we have a creep like Kyle getting so insulted and taking criticism personal that he now wants to talk about my girlfriend instead of business practices.

Get lost you creep.

And now you see folks....I wanted to have a discussion. Kyle didn't really want a discussion. He'd rather call me an oaf and talk about my girlfriend. Is this really what debate has fallen to? The funny part is...I didn't even really criticize him much. Like I mentioned, this was meant more for year long contracts.

[RamsdenF]

Very good stuff my man.

For big gyms/chains...contracts make sense. Corporate doesn't have to deal with clients personally. Money is locked in whether client uses it or not. Smart business. Someone pays for 12 months, you have that cash regardless. If client doesn't use it then you have your trainers training other people in that time slot. Double profit. Makes all the sense in the world. It is a business after all.

Small studios, individual personal trainers. You're reputation matters a bit more. People are going to go to Anytime Fitness regardless, Golds Gym, etc. Treat clients crappy, bad business ethics, horrible word of mouth, etc...Really doesn't matter too much. Like Walmart, people aren't gonna stop going to Walmart.

I hear you on this point....but don't you feel it's still selfish/greedy?

Let me frame it to you this way...I think people still go to these big gyms with contracts....because they ALL DO IT. What if a big time gym came along and simply did month to month and focused on value instead? I think you would see people leave the big greedy chains in droves. Do you agree?

If you rely on testimonials, referrals, google reviews, yelp reviews to generate business. Even if a client doesn't read the contract and its their own fault...when they go out and bad mouth you the details on your end don't really matter as the small business owner. I do month to month direct debit, people can cancel whenever. I don't have a very high turnover rate. If people make it past the first month they usually stick. I'm full at the moment.

In all honesty, I don't like having money that I haven't earned yet. I wouldn't want 20,000 at once I'd rather have 1500 over a dozen months or however that math plays out.

I stick to the policies I set out originally and don't waver. I'm very upfront about them all before clients sign up. So far have had no negative reviews. People know they're getting charged if they no show/cancel.

Good stuff and agree with all. I just got out of a consultation and a lady directly brought up lengthy contracts and went on about how bull**** they are. I couldnt agree more and she was ecstatic to sign up. I propose that lengthy contracts hurt reputation, thus the business.

Good points man. Appreciate the insight into how you run things.

[EdgarAllanPoe]

All in interpretation.

I'd rather make $10/hr them $5/hr. I'd rather make $100/hr than $10/hr.

I would not call that greedy or selfish, I would just call it smart and/or reality.

I make clients make up their sessions before going on vacation. If a client leaves the country for a month, they have to make those dates up beforehand or royal losing their spot. It's business.

If someone cancels with sorry notice I try to fill their time and get double profit. I'd much rather them cancel 2 hours early then 2 mins early so I can double up.

All these are cash having scenarios but I don't feel one bit guilty of shady over enforcing these policies. It's your time and you must prevent it from being wasted.

If people are unhappy with anything I do then in reality is their own fault for not reading policies that are clearly presented to them.

A main objective in my business is to be as profitable as can be and make more this month then last month. I would not personally call that greed.

If others consider that greed then they could call me greedy. I sleep well at night

[2morrownvrcomes]

Very good stuff my man.

I hear you on this point....but don't you feel it's still selfish/greedy?

Let me frame it to you this way...I think people still go to these big gyms with contracts....because they ALL DO IT. What if a big time gym came along and simply did month to month and focused on value instead? I think you would see people leave the big greedy chains in droves. Do you agree?

Good stuff and agree with all. I just got out of a consultation and a lady directly brought up lengthy contracts and went on about how bull**** they are. I couldnt agree more and she was ecstatic to sign up. I propose that lengthy contracts hurt reputation, thus the business.

Good points man. Appreciate the insight into how you run things.

I'm very confused what gyms rely on contracts. Outside of Bally's which went out of business partially due to those contracts what gyms require a contract. My understanding is most gyms simply require you to pay for a minimal number of training sessions at a time. If you are training 2 times a week then buying 12 session, for example, would only be 6 weeks. That's very reasonable in my opinion since the trainer has to set time aside for you.

[PitmanFitness]

Ramsden, you're being extremely judgmental.

[RamsdenF]

ps. I don't take time to come back and answer silly questions, or even look, so if you're not listening, not my problem.

This is all I needed to read^

Thanks for adding to the discussion....not.

[RamsdenF]

I'm very confused what gyms rely on contracts. Outside of Bally's which went out of business partially due to those contracts what gyms require a contract. My understanding is most gyms simply require you to pay for a minimal number of training sessions at a time. If you are training 2 times a week then buying 12 session, for example, would only be 6 weeks. That's very reasonable in my opinion since the trainer has to set time aside for you.

Big chain gyms mostly, although I have seen them at privately owned small business types too.

I make people buy a month in advance. And in your example 6 weeks is reasonable as well.

I have just seen too many places have 6 month and 12 month long contracts. Most of these trainers are terrible and do contracts for these lengths for the guaranteed income. As with anything not all trainers doing this will automatically be terrible(I have to say things like this on here;sad I know). For instance...if a poor trainer has clients constantly leaving after like 2-3 months...its because they no longer provide the client with enough value for them to justify the spending. So instead of focusing on being a better trainer, they think the problem is clients not staying long enough and force all clients to sign long term deals in order to train.

I just want a discussion on the topic. What do you think of long term ones? 6 months to 1 year?

[RamsdenF]

All in interpretation.

I'd rather make $10/hr them $5/hr. I'd rather make $100/hr than $10/hr.

I would not call that greedy or selfish, I would just call it smart and/or reality.

I make clients make up their sessions before going on vacation. If a client leaves the country for a month, they have to make those dates up beforehand or royal losing their spot. It's business.

If someone cancels with sorry notice I try to fill their time and get double profit. I'd much rather them cancel 2 hours early then 2 mins early so I can double up.

All these are cash having scenarios but I don't feel one bit guilty of shady over enforcing these policies. It's your time and you must prevent it from being wasted.

If people are unhappy with anything I do then in reality is their own fault for not reading policies that are clearly presented to them.

A main objective in my business is to be as profitable as can be and make more this month then last month. I would not personally call that greed.

If others consider that greed then they could call me greedy. I sleep well at night

See I think you are describing "smart business" not greed.

Greed insinuates that your profit or gain....comes at the expense of others(clients). You surely wouldnt describe your business practices as greed under this definition would you?

I am not bashing "making money". I am questioning tactics used to "make money, even if client doesn't want to pay money". Big difference in my eyes. I want clients proud to spend money on my training.

[PitmanFitness]

I KNEW I was wasting my time... shame on me.

[JohnSmeton]

When people pay money it hold them accountable. a package deal is a great idea whether its 10, 20 sessions or three months. Three months is when a person needs to do to see results, one month isnt enough

ive had most clients(or their moms and grandmoms) pay for them and in my expirience, the ones who moms and grandmoms paid for them didnt show up, flaked out, and did not finish their complete training package and wasted whoever paid for it

when the client paid themselves, whether its a package up front or a payment after the session is over, they always finished because they are motivated and payed

[WoofieNugget]

As usual, Ramsden started a thread based on his opinion and when his opinion was challenged he decided to try everything he could to say that whomever challenged his opinion was wrong. This seems to be a bit of a trend (see every single "this certification sucks" thread. This whole thread is basically him poo pooing other trainers who choose to run their business differently, rather than maybe seeing another perspective. As usual, it is close minded and he seems to think he knows more about how to run a proper business than others even though his own experience running a business is limited.

I personally don't do packages and all of my sessions are the same rate for my strength clients. My deal is that they train with me until they decide not to or until they have reached whatever goal they have, if they choose to continue then great. I also only ask for one month up front because I don't want to get into a situation where I ever have to do any type of refund.

Although I do think for some trainers or coaches contracts have merit. A good example would be for contest prep trainers. The client comes in with a specific timeline and needs to make a very strong commitment, so it makes sense for these trainers to commit the person for the duration and a bit afterwards. I do a similar thing for my running and triathlon coaching people - if they want to run a race in six months, they do a six month commitment. It means that they know up front they are getting trained the whole time and it gives them (and me) security. If we decide to part ways then of course I would refund whatever they paid because I have ethics.

That's my .02 and hopefully others will contribute without it turning into the stupid argument that always seems to result.

[2morrownvrcomes]

Big chain gyms mostly, although I have seen them at privately owned small business types too.

I make people buy a month in advance. And in your example 6 weeks is reasonable as well.

I have just seen too many places have 6 month and 12 month long contracts. Most of these trainers are terrible and do contracts for these lengths for the guaranteed income. As with anything not all trainers doing this will automatically be terrible(I have to say things like this on here;sad I know). For instance...if a poor trainer has clients constantly leaving after like 2-3 months...its because they no longer provide the client with enough value for them to justify the spending. So instead of focusing on being a better trainer, they think the problem is clients not staying long enough and force all clients to sign long term deals in order to train.

I just want a discussion on the topic. What do you think of long term ones? 6 months to 1 year?

I guess I can see where you are coming from. I once had a self employed trainer tell me he required a 3 month contract and I turned him down because I dislike contracts, AT&T has made sure of that. I've only ever had personal training at 24 hour fitness and they asked me to buy packages of sessions which decreased in price the more I bought, between 5-24 sessions. They are fairly expensive though which is why I saw so many people using outside trainers at my old gym. I didn't realize other gyms required more of a commitment.

[2morrownvrcomes]

Big chain gyms mostly, although I have seen them at privately owned small business types too.

I make people buy a month in advance. And in your example 6 weeks is reasonable as well.

I have just seen too many places have 6 month and 12 month long contracts. Most of these trainers are terrible and do contracts for these lengths for the guaranteed income. As with anything not all trainers doing this will automatically be terrible(I have to say things like this on here;sad I know). For instance...if a poor trainer has clients constantly leaving after like 2-3 months...its because they no longer provide the client with enough value for them to justify the spending. So instead of focusing on being a better trainer, they think the problem is clients not staying long enough and force all clients to sign long term deals in order to train.

I just want a discussion on the topic. What do you think of long term ones? 6 months to 1 year?

I would never sign a six or twelve month personal training package. Doesn't seem like the kind of thing that should have a contract in my opinion.

[EdgarAllanPoe]

I'd also add. I've never had a client quit because of money issues in my opinion. I've gotten that reasoning yes.

Most clients quit because they don't get results and they don't get results typically because they don't put forth the effort on the food side. I go over their food logging regardless of goal each week and give the small goals to obtain. Ever since I've done that if people don't get results they know why they're not and it's their own doing. I've never had any goal conflict since doing this weekly.

People pay for results.

I really don't think the money thing matters to oooo much whether you bill them once a year, once a month or once a session. So really it's peace of mind for the trainer.

Like I've said what ever the client agrees to up front... The made their bed. As trainers we can provide the tools, we can motivate and hold accountable to a extent but it's still ultimately they have to do the bulk of the workload themselves.

If your clients get results, enjoy your workouts, enjoy your company, etc. You don't have to worry too much about the showing up and getting **** done.

I do the 28 day billing cycles and usually the people that aren't going to cut it long term don't make it out of the 28 days.

If you have that monthly auto debit then you never have to worry about their billing and selling them again unless their card number changes. Saves on admin time and u can focus on their routines and food. What ultimately matters

[PitmanFitness]

As usual, Ramsden started a thread based on his opinion and when his opinion was challenged he decided to try everything he could to say that whomever challenged his opinion was wrong. This seems to be a bit of a trend (see every single "this certification sucks" thread. This whole thread is basically him poo pooing other trainers who choose to run their business differently, rather than maybe seeing another perspective. As usual, it is close minded and he seems to think he knows more about how to run a proper business than others even though his own experience running a business is limited.

I thought as much. Which is why I was hesitant to post anything at all. Who starts a conversation out with an already judged fact that ppl "must" be selfish if they do A or B because that's the only reason I can see?

Although I do think for some trainers or coaches contracts have merit. A good example would be for contest prep trainers. The client comes in with a specific timeline and needs to make a very strong commitment, so it makes sense for these trainers to commit the person for the duration and a bit afterwards. I do a similar thing for my running and triathlon coaching people - if they want to run a race in six months, they do a six month commitment. It means that they know up front they are getting trained the whole time and it gives them (and me) security. If we decide to part ways then of course I would refund whatever they paid because I have ethics.

That's my .02 and hopefully others will contribute without it turning into the stupid argument that always seems to result.

Precisely. thanks, Woofie. As soon as I saw KyleAaron's post, I knew STRAIGHT away that he was experienced and knew well what he was talking about. But, he doesn't care to listen because he's already dead set on his opinion. Why not start the conversation with "Hey, I already know all the answers, but if you'd like to argue, post here." Bottom line: If the only reason you can currently see for longer term contracting is "selfishness" of a business, then you definitely should not be doing it! But, if you can be open-minded and non-judgmental, you might be able to understand some extremely valid other reasons and situations.

[rdferguson]

Fact of the matter is, contracts give incentives. Let's say you've signed up to 3 x 30min sessions a week and that's going to cost you $120/wk. Every time you don't show up, that's $40 down the drain. Is that $40 you can afford to waste? No? Then you better show up.

Contracts can also be a great way to offer discounts, so that financially it's a win-win. Maybe you charge $50/30min session on a PAYG basis, $45/session if the client signs a 3 month contract, and $40/session on a 12 month contract. You offer those options and I don't think this whole "forcing people to pay" problem really applies. If they're unsure, they can try you out for $50/session and walk away any time, or they can give it 3 months to see how they feel and again quit when they're done, or keep going. But it also means that the more loyal they are to you, the more you financially reward them. Nothing scummy about that. If the only option you put on the table was a 12 month contract, I don't think that would be a wise move. It's rightly intimidating and doesn't communicate the issue that clients are allowed to opt out. But if you have varying contract and no-contract options, I don't see the harm in it.

[2morrownvrcomes]

Fact of the matter is, contracts give incentives. Let's say you've signed up to 3 x 30min sessions a week and that's going to cost you $120/wk. Every time you don't show up, that's $40 down the drain. Is that $40 you can afford to waste? No? Then you better show up.

Contracts can also be a great way to offer discounts, so that financially it's a win-win. Maybe you charge $50/30min session on a PAYG basis, $45/session if the client signs a 3 month contract, and $40/session on a 12 month contract. You offer those options and I don't think this whole "forcing people to pay" problem really applies. If they're unsure, they can try you out for $50/session and walk away any time, or they can give it 3 months to see how they feel and again quit when they're done, or keep going. But it also means that the more loyal they are to you, the more you financially reward them. Nothing scummy about that. If the only option you put on the table was a 12 month contract, I don't think that would be a wise move. It's rightly intimidating and doesn't communicate the issue that clients are allowed to opt out. But if you have varying contract and no-contract options, I don't see the harm in it.

Oddly enough I had to sign a contract to work with my chiropractor. I paid upfront because they offered me a significant discount. Honestly it hasn't motivated me to goo to all of my sessions. What has motivated me was that they rescheduled me after I no called no showed. Now I feel like an ass if I don't go because they could have easily just said, "his loss". I won't recommend them to my massage clients because of the contract though. It feels pushy and confusing, especially when you are in a lot of pain.

[RamsdenF]

I thought as much. Which is why I was hesitant to post anything at all. Who starts a conversation out with an already judged fact that ppl "must" be selfish if they do A or B because that's the only reason I can see?

Precisely. thanks, Woofie. As soon as I saw KyleAaron's post, I knew STRAIGHT away that he was experienced and knew well what he was talking about. But, he doesn't care to listen because he's already dead set on his opinion. Why not start the conversation with "Hey, I already know all the answers, but if you'd like to argue, post here." Bottom line: If the only reason you can currently see for longer term contracting is "selfishness" of a business, then you definitely should not be doing it! But, if you can be open-minded and non-judgmental, you might be able to understand some extremely valid other reasons and situations.

Do you know how stupid you sound?

First you come in here and right a very long winded post and at the end say "HEY, DON'T RESPOND TO ME BECAUSE I DON'T HAVE TIME FOR PEOPLE THAT DISAGREE", which you have since edited away probably because you noticed how dumb it was.

This is called a "discussion board", not a "Pitman Fitness spew board". When you say things, others can criticize, agree, or challenge the points you make. If you don't like that, why would you join? And ya pal.....I did put forth a point of view, it's called an opinion. People can either respond if they agree or if not they can make valid points and have a discussion(EdgarAllanPoe does a nice job of being respectful if you need an example).

Now...you sit here and tell me "I don't have time for responses" and "I don't read responses because I don't waste my time", yet here you are complaining and whining twice in five hours lol. So much for not having time huh?

[RamsdenF]

Fact of the matter is, contracts give incentives. Let's say you've signed up to 3 x 30min sessions a week and that's going to cost you $120/wk. Every time you don't show up, that's $40 down the drain. Is that $40 you can afford to waste? No? Then you better show up.

Contracts can also be a great way to offer discounts, so that financially it's a win-win. Maybe you charge $50/30min session on a PAYG basis, $45/session if the client signs a 3 month contract, and $40/session on a 12 month contract. You offer those options and I don't think this whole "forcing people to pay" problem really applies. If they're unsure, they can try you out for $50/session and walk away any time, or they can give it 3 months to see how they feel and again quit when they're done, or keep going. But it also means that the more loyal they are to you, the more you financially reward them. Nothing scummy about that. If the only option you put on the table was a 12 month contract, I don't think that would be a wise move. It's rightly intimidating and doesn't communicate the issue that clients are allowed to opt out. But if you have varying contract and no-contract options, I don't see the harm in it.

If you offer month to month and DONT PENALIZE for someone breaking a long term contract, I fail to see the point in them.

I get the "discount" thing to a degree. But that can still be implemented by offering different rates(less per hour if doing 3x/wk vs 1/wk).

[RamsdenF]

Oddly enough I had to sign a contract to work with my chiropractor. I paid upfront because they offered me a significant discount. Honestly it hasn't motivated me to goo to all of my sessions. What has motivated me was that they rescheduled me after I no called no showed. Now I feel like an ass if I don't go because they could have easily just said, "his loss". I won't recommend them to my massage clients because of the contract though. It feels pushy and confusing, especially when you are in a lot of pain.

Good post. Exactly my point.

It feels shady and usually is. Good trainers know their product is of high value and do not "worry" about maintaining clients. The training sells itself long term.

[SerpentHearted]

Haven't read all replies.

I do a 12 week minimum direct debit contract.
There is a "50% of remaining contract" early termination policy. I have waived that a couple of times where 1 client lost her job and another was sent overseas by her job.

Why?
Several reasons.

One: I want clients who are serious about training and not just people who are going to show up once in a while and cancel every other session. A direct debit contract discourages those types.

Two: I actually believe that what I give to people is valuable, and I require that I earn the value of what I give people. That doesn't necessarilly correlate to "cost per hour spent in the gym with me in person", unless I'm gonna start charging several hundred per session or something like that. If people really think they can book "a personal training session or two" and get given a full program with progression built in, nutrition guidelines, everything they need to achieve a long term goal for the price of 2 x 1 hour PT sessions... hey maybe someone else out there might not value their own expertise and be happy to give it away for next to nothing but I'm not about to.

Three: I have bills to pay the same as anyone else.

I'm quite a good trainer but not an especially good businessman, and even I understand this.
For people to get the benefit of what you give them, they need to appreciate it. They need to value it. If they're not prepared to pay a fair price for it, they don't value it and therefore won't follow your advice well enough to acheive their goal. So rather than paying a fair price and getting what they asked for, they pay a small amount, get nothing out of it, you go broke, and everyone loses.

That's what I think.

[Footballa_19]

I do a 12 week minimum direct debit contract.


Why?
Several reasons.

One: I want clients who are serious about training and not just people who are going to show up once in a while and cancel every other session. A direct debit contract discourages those types.

Two: I actually believe that what I give to people is valuable, and I require that I earn the value of what I give people. That doesn't necessarilly correlate to "cost per hour spent in the gym with me in person", unless I'm gonna start charging several hundred per session or something like that. If people really think they can book "a personal training session or two" and get given a full program with progression built in, nutrition guidelines, everything they need to achieve a long term goal for the price of 2 x 1 hour PT sessions... hey maybe someone else out there might not value their own expertise and be happy to give it away for next to nothing but I'm not about to.

Three: I have bills to pay the same as anyone else.

I'm quite a good trainer but not an especially good businessman, and even I understand this.
For people to get the benefit of what you give them, they need to appreciate it. They need to value it. If they're not prepared to pay a fair price for it, they don't value it and therefore won't follow your advice well enough to acheive their goal. So rather than paying a fair price and getting what they asked for, they pay a small amount, get nothing out of it, you go broke, and everyone loses.

That's what I think.

came in to pretty much post this ^^^^