Arnold critiquing modern bodybuilding (pissed off at Cedric coming in 4th)

[AdamantiumYoke]

It's nice to see someone as popular and powerful speak up. I think after the Yates/Ronnie era. Most everyone wants to go back to classic lines. Which would include slim waists, conditioning, appearance and development. The judges may still hold a grudge on Ced. But there is no denying his look is the direction many want to see the sport return too.

Hey Z. quite off topic but is Roelly doing all the prep and protocols all by himself now ?

[Enso]

I know this thread is about Arnold and what he said, but I would love to see guys like this have a chance again to win the Olympia and other big titles:



^^ That is exactly what he is referring too. Clean, aesthetic lines, and athletic looking. Zane was not the biggest, but for his frame...he carried the weight he needed to have all the criteria of a quality bodybuilder.

[RoroCwalker]

How great is it though that Arnold did this? Everyone has been so scared about the sacred IFBB and their judging. Apart from a few people and few times such as Lee Priest and Toney Freeman, RX Muscle, Flex Wheeler, they almost always have to respect what the IFBB said. Agree with it, respect the decision, respect the "judges".

Especially in divisions like bikini and physique, "the respect" is much higher because you have no other option but to respect them where the judging standards are almost purely subjective. Maybe some people can talk out a little more. Funniest thing is pure Bob couldn't say s.it in return hahaha. If it was anyone else but Arnold he would have cut the speech and change the subject. It is hilarious. His bosses should be real mad after this.


Edit: POSING has to be rewarded. it must be rewarded. It is one of the reasons that all of us follow bodybuilding. A good routine by the likes of Ed Corney in Pumping Iron, Cedric, Dennis, Levrone. I hate applause begging, most musculars and stupid faces. Bodybuilding is more artistic and beautiful than that. Get that s.it out of here

Agreed with posing being awarded!

Although,

The issue is the following;

Judge 1: "I enjoy the hardcore raagghhhh metal tongue out most musculars" (Branch)
Judge 2: "I enjoy the heroic slow posings" (Cedric)

Judge 1: "Eh...the heroic slow posings are just boring.."
Judge 2: "The hardcore posing just doesn't compliment the artistic side of bodybuilding"

Doing handstands and very "wavy" stuff can also be noted down by people who'd consider it homoerotic (ex: Kai's posings).

It would become very very subjective and anyone could award anyone they have "business" with and hide behind those arguments.

[AdamantiumYoke]

Good point Roro but by bringing the posing under the scoring criteria... Judges will be able able to mark down and penalise a competitor by stating that "he did not have good muscle control during posing, i.e. the gut hanging out, also it ruins the overall look of some poses too.. so let us deduct some marks". This will compel the competitors to somewhat take care of their midsection , even if the vacuum cannot be made compulsory. But yeah, if the judges have made up the mind that they will do whatever the **** they want, any recommendation wont mean sh!t.

[Exane]

Agreed with posing being awarded!

Although,

The issue is the following;

Judge 1: "I enjoy the hardcore raagghhhh metal tongue out most musculars" (Branch)
Judge 2: "I enjoy the heroic slow posings" (Cedric)

Judge 1: "Eh...the heroic slow posings are just boring.."
Judge 2: "The hardcore posing just doesn't compliment the artistic side of bodybuilding"

Doing handstands and very "wavy" stuff can also be noted down by people who'd consider it homoerotic (ex: Kai's posings).

It would become very very subjective and anyone could award anyone they have "business" with and hide behind those arguments.

While I get what you are saying, they do manage to critique something like Womens Fitness just fine. That would be far harder to judge than a simple posing routine, imo.

As AY says, its all about establishing certein criteria from the get go.

[RoroCwalker]

Good point Roro but by bringing the posing under the scoring criteria... Judges will be able able to mark down and penalise a competitor by stating that "he did not have good muscle control during posing, i.e. the gut hanging out, also it ruins the overall look of some poses too.. so let us deduct some marks". This will compel the competitors to somewhat take care of their midsection , even if the vacuum cannot be made compulsory. But yeah, if the judges have made up the mind that they will do whatever the **** they want, any recommendation wont mean sh!t.

Indeed, that's the most significant advantage of forcing the judging routines to count, people will actually work on these specific issues, and simply better the quality of the event/physiques.

Also, just imagine how incredible the posing routines of guys like Kai/Cedric/etc. will be, the work that'll go in that will benefit the spectators (better show) and also, as you've suggested, indirectly improve their physiques/the presentation of their physique.

The issue is that the judges cannot be "trusted", in a sense.

While I get what you are saying, they do manage to critique something like Womens Fitness just fine. That would be far harder to judge than a simple posing routine, imo.

As AY says, its all about establishing certein criteria from the get go.

True.

In that case, would you put "mandatory poses" in the routines (like Women's fitness have to demonstrate their strength (I think it's 5 mandatory movements))?

Although, the Women's Fitness can also use props/costumes/etc., which can make the comparisons easier, in a sense. (Creativity/references/originality in the costumes/props), they have more to base their judging off.

[AdamantiumYoke]

An other federation actually has a division where the physique-class looking guys actually do a routine very similar to Women's fitness but just more manly. Just like in old times, bodybuilding was part of strongman competition, similarly athletic ability is tested in that competition, guys doing all kinds of gymnastic and martial art stunts etc. All I know is, if the change isn't brought in future, even the most loyal fans will give up one day.

[Exane]

True.

In that case, would you put "mandatory poses" in the routines (like Women's fitness have to demonstrate their strength (I think it's 5 mandatory movements))?

Although, the Women's Fitness can also use props/costumes/etc., which can make the comparisons easier, in a sense. (Creativity/references/originality in the costumes/props), they have more to base their judging off.

That may be a good place to start, for real. I think they should encourage variations of the mandatories in the posing routine, but still require the Mandatory posing round as well. I dont know where you would go from there, transitions, flow, creativity? But I think developing a basic outline for judging could be relatively easy, especailly for the IFBB.

[RichInMuscle]

Really doubt Arnold can make any sort of difference. Good to hear his view though.

He could if his own shows were judged how he wanted the physiques to look.
This sport will slowly regress until golden era aesthetics come back.

[RobberBaron13]

Golden era aestehics wont come back.For that to happen the guts must go, and that wont happen as long as bb wil continue to use HGH or insulin.

[Canuck77]

So then why not just drop the Slin and HGH? It is like this BIG elephant in the room at Pro competitions, no one wants to talk about HGH or Slin use and how it ruins the physique with the turtle shell, bloated guts. It is almost like it is being a given now and just accepted as part of the package or parcel, some guys have 4-paks that are so widely split, you could fit a baseball between their abs. **** that, it's not right, it looks like **** and truth be told, like Arnold said, there are very few Pros I would want also even look like today.

Like Arnold said, to make a change you have to start somewhere and he was starting somewhere by going out on a limb and speaking the straight truth which no MD analyst or Flex rep or Sponsor wants to address or mention because it could affect their partnership with the almighty Jim Manion and IFBB judge gods.

I really hope this catches wind and something is done. They will need to start penalizing heavily for distended guts and abdomens, simple as that, just as they penalize for guys who spill or hold a film of water.

What's next? Some drug they take that affect the glutes and then it becomes common practice to not worry about the striated glutes? I cringe when I see Pros today do abdominal thigh pose, looks like total chit 90% of the time. What the heck happened to the vacuum and V taper? It was traded for bloated, turtle shell, distended guts that give the bottle shape. Arnold should start a petition or something, he has a huge voice in bodybuilding and if anyone can put some serious pressure or kick-back on the IFBB and it's judging system, it's him. We should all Twitter and/or fFace Book him and tell him to push it...

[TBU720]

Lets go back to the time of the true natties like Frank Zane. Not the guys these days who come in with such big guts cuz of the creatine!!!!

[RobberBaron13]

Nobody will pay to see a 190 lb fitness model as Mr O these days.Ppl today want freaky, not just bb but in general, in wrestling, movies...the wow factor.
And Zane was natty when Obama's parents are Asian.He took steroids since he was a teen.

[weltweitefurcht]

Anyone know how I can download that ******** video of Arnold? It was a really good speech and I feel it may come in handy some years down the line..

Nobody will pay to see a 190 lb fitness model as Mr O these days.Ppl today want freaky, not just bb but in general, in wrestling, movies...the wow factor.
And Zane was natty when Obama's parents are Asian.He took steroids since he was a teen.

He didn't say 190lbs fitness models. He was talking about people like Cedric and Dexter who are massive yet pleasing.

Shawn Ray, Levrone, Wheeler, Compton, Phil Heath to an extent, none of these people are 190lbs fitness models.. yet they are what Arnold is talking about.

[RobberBaron13]

Well he mentioned Zane.Who was in the 185-190 lb range .
ps.To download videos Real Player is always handy..

[tom11]

Unpopular opinion: I don't like Cedric's physique especially from the front. I think his midsection ruins his whole look (lack of detail).

However, I think Shawn Rhoden (which those 2 are similar) looks great. He also doesn't have a lacking lower body.

[weltweitefurcht]

Well he mentioned Zane.Who was in the 185-190 lb range .
ps.To download videos Real Player is always handy..

True, I see why you mentioned the 190lbs part then! But he did also mention Cedric which is like 270+ pounds.

I'll try Real Player, thank you (reps).

[RoroCwalker]

True, I see why you mentioned the 190lbs part then! But he did also mention Cedric which is like 270+ pounds.

I'll try Real Player, thank you (reps).

(Don't fall for the pop-up ad, close the pop-ad once it appears)
http://www.downvids.net/

In case you're not sure how it works,

Click on the Download this Video button, it'll open up in a new window where the video will be playing, then right click the video and choose "Save As", it'll be saved as .mp4 wherever you chose to save it.

[Guardian]

I think there needs to be a happy medium.

Its almost unavoidable that as a person gains weight their midsection will increase if none other then a stronger core to support the heavier weights. The real question is proportions and when is their diminishing returns.

For example, if someone increases their chest 5 inches to 55 inches and gains 2 inches in the waist to 35 inches, perhaps overall they still look better and its worth it. But what if to gain 5 inches of chest you gain 4 inches in waist, or worse what if you gain 6 inches in waist for 5 inches in chest. That means your ratio is actually worse.

There is also the issue that as ones muscle increase in size their separation, detail, etc tends to decline.

I for one find Jay Cutler in 2001 Olympia to be a good example of at least what I would consider to be a good medium.

I think Cutler got pushed down the mass road after that to compete with Coleman. After Coleman was gone he did come down a bit in weight and looked better but sometimes once you go mass its hard to fully come back.

I think alot of bodybuilders probably look their best around 250-260. Any heavier they start getting more of the gut, any lighter and it looks like the sport is regressing.

[flangmasterj]

Unpopular opinion: I don't like Cedric's physique especially from the front. I think his midsection ruins his whole look (lack of detail).

I thought you were going to say the lack of detail in his arms ruin his front poses but his midsection??

Come on guy.

[Larfleeze]

I thought you were going to say the lack of detail in his arms ruin his front poses but his midsection??

Come on guy.

His midsection does tend to look soft in front poses.

[Canuck77]

Anyone know how I can download that ******** video of Arnold? It was a really good speech and I feel it may come in handy some years down the line..




He didn't say 190lbs fitness models. He was talking about people like Cedric and Dexter who are massive yet pleasing.

Shawn Ray, Levrone, Wheeler, Compton, Phil Heath to an extent, none of these people are 190lbs fitness models.. yet they are what Arnold is talking about.

Exactly. These guys are/were all in the 240+ range with the exception of Ray because he was shorter. Weight isn't even that big of a deal imo as it is all about illusion anyways. In 2009 Jay Cutler was low 250's on stage and said that despite contrary belief, he was in that range most of his career with the exception of a few shows.

Ruhl, Dillet, Palumbo all stepped on stage at around 300 pounds and they never won for a reason, despite their "freak factor" they were not aesthetically pleasing, lack of proportions, symmetry, balance and cuts/lines.

Jay 2001/2009, Dex '08, Heath 2011, Levrone/Wheeler/Ray in their prime are examples of what Mr. o should look like IMHO.

I don't care how "grainy" Branch is or how big his hams are. It's the whole package as Arnold said. Can you imagine if Branch won? Do you think Arnold would stand up there, look him in the eyes and tell him he has a really beautiful physique like he did to Dex?

I have nothing against weight or size as you can have both like Ronnie and Jay did in their best showings but if there is no one in the lineup that brings both of those things to the stage, it should obviously be based on symmetry, proportions, cuts/lines, balance and conditioning not who has "paid their dues" or has only one freaky aspect to their physique that "jumps out"...

[pyrolee]

Lol at all of you jumping on the aesthetic train just because Arnold said it...for instance, the man is complimenting Steve Reeves...hasn't pretty much every person on this board hated on Reeves for years and said he wasn't really a bodybuilder but a fitness model? Lol...you bandwagoners...now all you meat heads are all for aesthetics now!

Sheep...

Like Lee Priest said...he's been saying the exact same thing for years...sigh...what is wrong with you people?

P.S. Now you are even giving credit to Frank Zane? Wow...complete 180 with a single speech from Arnold. No wonder you noobs refuse to admit Sergio owned in '72 and Mentzer in '80

[RobberBaron13]

Paul Dillet had INSANE proportions and decent detail in his prime, just sayin..

[JaxVilleNick]

Lol at all of you jumping on the aesthetic train just because Arnold said it...for instance, the man is complimenting Steve Reeves...hasn't pretty much every person on this board hated on Reeves for years and said he wasn't really a bodybuilder but a fitness model? Lol...you bandwagoners...now all you meat heads are all for aesthetics now!

Sheep...

Like Lee Priest said...he's been saying the exact same thing for years...sigh...what is wrong with you people?

P.S. Now you are even giving credit to Frank Zane? Wow...complete 180 with a single speech from Arnold. No wonder you noobs refuse to admit Sergio owned in '72 and Mentzer in '80

sorry broseph, arnold owned the competitors at both the 72 and 80 olympia shows. get over it.

[masthead716]

Lol at all of you jumping on the aesthetic train just because Arnold said it...for instance, the man is complimenting Steve Reeves...hasn't pretty much every person on this board hated on Reeves for years and said he wasn't really a bodybuilder but a fitness model? Lol...you bandwagoners...now all you meat heads are all for aesthetics now!

Sheep...

Like Lee Priest said...he's been saying the exact same thing for years...sigh...what is wrong with you people?

P.S. Now you are even giving credit to Frank Zane? Wow...complete 180 with a single speech from Arnold. No wonder you noobs refuse to admit Sergio owned in '72 and Mentzer in '80

hahaha our friendly neighborhood miz kunt emerges from his cave...

[RobberBaron13]

sorry broseph, arnold owned the competitors at both the 72 and 80 olympia shows. get over it.

Correction, Weider bros owned .Not the first or last time they did it.

[BOUNTYHUNTERMK2]

I want to see mass but not at the expense of a waistline. Ergo Cedric fits the bill everytime.

I won't lie I love seeing the freaks but not at the expense of them having a gigantic gut. Arnold hit the nail on the head.

[GBLynden]

I want to see mass but not at the expense of a waistline. Ergo Cedric fits the bill everytime.

I won't lie I love seeing the freaks but not at the expense of them having a gigantic gut. Arnold hit the nail on the head.

I agree with this too. It also never ceases to amaze me in all of the years I have been following the sport how cynical a lot of people are and they just accept things the way they are. Us fans aren't competitors and don't work for the people that pull the strings. It is 2015, an era where we don't have to wait months/weeks for the latest issue of Muscle and Fitness to show up to see who ended up winning the O or other contests.

This is the real time world and we can rattle the nuts of those that make decisions via Social Media. Arnold laid something down here on purpose and we can either band together to make a change or we can sit here as victims.

As long as I have a set of nuts, I know which direction I am going with this.

GB

[NVious]

So then they told me he had more symmetrical size