Muscle Memory is a myth!!!

[smackt]

I was working out steadily 5 days a week, then I came down with Mono. That put me out about 2 weeks. Then I came back, got really bad shoulder tendoinitis, missed about another 8 weeks.

I;ve been back now for a month and a half, more around 50 days, and still I have not not gotten back to my strength that I had in mid October.

BB Bench for example- October 20, 2006 225 5 Times..

YESTERDAY: 185- 6 Times....WHAT IS GOING ON?

I'm really frustrated guys..I can be patient if I know for sure that I will return toi my old strength very soon, faster than if I was building it up from scratch. But still, I thought I built a great foundaiton for 2 years lifting consistently. Therefore, misisng about 3 months, and then a month back into it, I'd think I'd be further along than what I was.

My age is 21, and my diet is fine, so is sleeping. Please don't suggest those are reasons. Thanks for your help guys.

[JUSA]

It's probably your diet. 9 out of 10 times when someone says their diet is fine, it sucks. Otherwise, didn't sound like you had a whole lot of muscle to begin with. What do you expect? To be back where you were after a couple workouts? I'm assuming your training is miserable, too. The whole "I was working out 5 days a week steadily" sounds like you picked up some worthless program from a muscle mag that a roided-out freak of nature who has been training for eons was using. Sounds to me, even in your prime, you probably weren't much more than a beginner... maybe an intermediate lifter (but, probably not). Is your program designed for a beginner or for an intermediate or advanced lifter?

225x5 after TWO YEARS of lifting is not good. Which, to me, spells out that there is a problem somewhere. At 21 years of age, you can get away with doing a lot of stupid **** and still make good gains. In your case, it must mean you're doing more wrong than right, because even being 21 and having lifted for 2 years, you're pretty weak.

Why not address those problems and stop pissing and moaning about muscle memory and other things you don't know **** about?

I can be patient if I know for sure that I will return toi my old strength very soon, faster than if I was building it up from scratch.

WHAT THE ****, THEN?

If you're getting stonger faster than when you built it up - woudln't that be muscle memory? The very same thing you seem to think doesn't exist? Damn, son, I think your problems run a lot deeper than a ****ty workout program and a weak bench press. May God have mercy on your soul.

[mattman11]

maintaining strength isn't muscle memory. Muscle memory is
"When an active person trains movement, often of the same activity, in an effort to stimulate the bodymind?s adaptation process, the end result is to induce a physiological change such as increased levels of accuracy through repetition. Even though the process is really brain-muscle memory or what some call motor memory, the nickname muscle memory is commonly used."

taken from wikipedia

[Mark1T]

This is just my opinion, but here it is: Muscle Memory is not necessarily the muscles themselves. If you take time off due to whatever circumstances, then come back to train, the difference in how soon you come back to where you were or better, is based upon how well you know how to train.

If you do not know how to train optimally, then your Muscle Memory will suck. If you do know how to train optimally, then your Muscle Memory will be enhanced and you will see steady progression.

In other words, Muscle Memory is knowledge - your mind - brains make gains.

[li0scc0]

Muscle memory is not a myth.

On November 16th, 2006, after 3.5 years of cycling, I weighed 180.

On January 1st, 2007 (46 days later), I weighed 211 with a slight increase in bodyfat.

Thus I gained 31 pounds total. 7 pounds were bodyfat, 24 were muscle.

Now I weigh 213 and have lost the bodyfat and actually have lower bodyfat than I did at 180.

Thus, 3.5 months after starting lifting I have gained 33 pounds and have a lower bodyfat % at 213 than I did at 180

I'm not superhuman, this is muscle memory. Before commencing cycling I was 215 pounds. So my dramatic muscle gain is due to muscle memory.

[JUSA]

^ I hate to burst your bubble, but you didn't put on 33 pounds of lean weight in 3-1/2 months.

Usually when your FB% runs 12% to 18% you look roughly the same. Not fat enough to look fat, not thin enough to see your abs. You were probably in that range and put on a fair amount of fat, but just didn't notice.

[DuracellBunny]

I've given up training several times, in some cases for over a year and trust me, it's definitely easier to come back than to start in the first place. As has already been said it's partly due to your knowledge, but fascia growth, tendon strength and other things come in to it as well.

I haven't trained for 3 weeks and won't train for another month yet and I've lost 11lbs in those 3 weeks. When I start again in a month I will be weak and my stamina will be poor, but within 2 months I should be back to where I was before xmas.

As I've said, I've done this several times and it does come back. Stop focussing on the negative aspects and start focussing on progression, the same as always.

[smackt]

When I say it's a myth, I'm not refuting science, it was used as a device to show my skepticism.

Johnny,

Thanks for the note of confidence. Assuming that I'm doing things wrong without a foundaiton for you to make these asusmptions, made me a little confused. I started bench off at 100 pounds, and in 22 months i got up to 235 about 3 times or so. I tihnk that's a solid progression.

I really don't know what I'm doing wrong. You asusme my diet "sucks", but I get 1.5 grams protein per body weight daily, eat my vegatbles, vitamins, fats, etc. I know you have to eat to get bigger, and up your calories.

In terms of workout program, I don't consult magazines. I usally just create my splits on experioence or what I think is right, and then swtich things up every 6 weeks to keep tihngs fresh. How complicated is it to get a right routine? And how does this impact how fast I progress with strength?

Shoulders
bi/tri's
Legs
Chest
Back

510 170..Can't seem to make progress, even with a focus on eating a lot, alot, a lot. What are these reasons why my strength/size takes a while to go up?

[li0scc0]

I was a high end competitive cyclist. I could not have performed at that level with 12-18% bodyfat.

I have had body composition analyses performed every two weeks in order to monitor muscle gains and bodyfat. So yes I did gain 33 pounds of lean muscle in 3.5 months. Again, this is muscle memory.

My bodyfat has wavered between 7.5 and 9% in the timeframe. I'm just over 6 foot tall and my waist is 30.8 inches. Given the relatively low bodyfat, small gains/losses in fat are noticeable due to striations evident in the quadriceps/calves at lower bodyfat, increased vascularity, glute/hamstring defintion, and increased lower abdominal definition.

[BluntD]

225x5 after TWO YEARS of lifting is not good.

I don't know how you can say that, without at least knowing a person's starting point in terms of size and strength level. Say he was 120lbs with a 1RM of 135, then being able to do 225 for 5 reps at that point would be pretty damn good. What, do you expect everyone to be repping 315 after 2 years? Are YOU able to do that?

[stealth_swimmer]

I've given up training several times, in some cases for over a year and trust me, it's definitely easier to come back than to start in the first place. As has already been said it's partly due to your knowledge, but fascia growth, tendon strength and other things come in to it as well.

I haven't trained for 3 weeks and won't train for another month yet and I've lost 11lbs in those 3 weeks. When I start again in a month I will be weak and my stamina will be poor, but within 2 months I should be back to where I was before xmas.

As I've said, I've done this several times and it does come back. Stop focussing on the negative aspects and start focussing on progression, the same as always.

agreed. I also believe muscle memory occurs more rapidly when you have been training longer i.e. a full solid year or more. In such a case taking a rest eve about three months usually helps most people.

[magicmatt]

muscle memory is not a myth. i just started working out 2 weeks ago for the first time since the beginning of october. in just 2 weeks i am at almost the same strength i was when i stopped. maybe you are still sick, or its all in your head. i would take another week or 2 off.

[li0scc0]

In other words, Muscle Memory is knowledge - your mind - brains make gains.

Yes and no. Yes in that your increased knowledge allows you to put on muscle faster because you have learned from your mistakes.

Yet it IS in fact easier to put on size even without applying proper lifting techniques.

For example, when I was cycling and weighed 178-182 (depending upon water weight), I could put on 10 pounds of muscle in a flash even without weight training. Remember, I used to be a lean 215 pounds and a 'not-so-lean' (15%) 268 pounds. All I had to do was increase the protein in my diet and boom, I would gain size. And as we had our body composition monitored frequently while cycling, it was confirmed muscular gains. My biceps and back would grow simply from the pulling motion of riding a bike (via sprinting and climbing). This was muscle memory, clearly, as riding a bike doesn't normally develop upper body size!

[li0scc0]

Within 3 months of training, after 3.5 years off without touching any weight heavier than an 18 pound bicycle , I was already as strong as I was before for deadlifts, and stronger than I was at the time before my layoff for bench and squats.

[li0scc0]

Johnny is just being negative.

Regarding your eating, are you eating enough times a day? I.e. ~6 times per day? Making sure your post workout meal is high in simple carbs and a fast digesting whey protein, while your other meals focus on quality protein and complex carbohydrates? Are you having protein (slow digesting such as casein) before bed? Are you eating right when you get up?

Re your training, are you actually working the muscles or pushing the weight? How long are your workouts? Are some bodyparts responding while others are not?

[trojannation]

I took three years off from lifting and have just recently started again. Within just over a week I have already gained 50 lbs in my deadlift and am getting close to where I was before very quickly. If you have a good lifting background your strength comes back in a short period of time. In the past I had also taken time off from certain lifts and came back stronger than ever. While playing baseball my coaching staff did not want me to bench any more. At the time my max was 315. I did not bench for almost two years until my baseball career ended with a shoulder injury. After surgery I began benching again, and within a year and a half I was benching 385.

[smackt]

liO, thanks for the response

In terms of eaitng, i get about 5 meals a day. Grilled chicken, vegatbles, trukeyt, egg beaters, vegetables, fruit, etc. Before bed I have cottage cheese mixed with some PB.

Morning includes pure oats with milk, egg beaters, banana.

Thanks again.

Anyone else who oculd help I'd be grateful.

[li0scc0]

I think your diet sounds outstanding and very healthy.

A few things...if you aren't gaining weight you aren't getting enough calories. Up your carbohydrate intake until you start gaining weight (you are already getting in enough protein). I would highly recommend you monitor your bodyfat % to make sure you are not just gaining adipose tissue. Set for yourself an acceptable limit. Such as if you are currently 10%, don't go above 12%. Another neat way I have had people monitor themselves is using their belt. They will only gain weight until they have to go one belt loop looser. At that point it is time to diet back down until you are using the right loop!

One other thing...if you want to gain weight it would not hurt to eat a little red meat. Many theories abound as to why it is, but red meat is the king of muscle gains.

[Khryz]

Most people expect muscle memory to return them their strength in a few workouts. Muscles do a much better job at returning to their original size prior to the lay-off (provided there is enough food eaten) than to return strength. Strength is mostly from neural factors, and a long layoff deconditions the CNS into not utilizing as many muscle fibers as before. Your CNS takes a longer time to remember the operating levels of before so don't sweat it. You'll still regain your strength and size much quicker than it took you to first attain - if not then everyone right and your diet, sleeping patterns, stress levels, etc have probably changed.

[DiamondDelts]

Stopped reading when I saw "bb bench for example"

[Mtguy8787]

I was a high end competitive cyclist. I could not have performed at that level with 12-18% bodyfat.

I have had body composition analyses performed every two weeks in order to monitor muscle gains and bodyfat. So yes I did gain 33 pounds of lean muscle in 3.5 months. Again, this is muscle memory.

My bodyfat has wavered between 7.5 and 9% in the timeframe. I'm just over 6 foot tall and my waist is 30.8 inches. Given the relatively low bodyfat, small gains/losses in fat are noticeable due to striations evident in the quadriceps/calves at lower bodyfat, increased vascularity, glute/hamstring defintion, and increased lower abdominal definition.

No, you did not gain 33.5 lbs of lean mass in 3 months. If you did, then you should try to become the new all-natural Mr O, because you have the best genetics in the world...


Even 1 lb per week of pure lean mass for 3 months would be phenomenal, gains.. and you are trying to say you gained 3 times that.

I guarantee that you have gained a significant amount of fat, and wherever you are getting your body comp done is a very ****ty place..

You also could have gained alot of dead weight in the form of ****. Yes, I am 100% serious -- it is a very common thing these days...

[smackt]

delts, why's that?

[two choices]

No, you did not gain 33.5 lbs of lean mass in 3 months. If you did, then you should try to become the new all-natural Mr O, because you have the best genetics in the world...


Even 1 lb per week of pure lean mass for 3 months would be phenomenal, gains.. and you are trying to say you gained 3 times that.
.

yeah, i'm in agreement with this guy. 33.5 pounds of lean mass would be absolutely nuts for a natural person to gain. those numbers he gave are AAS-type numbers and solid AAS numbers at that. i think that amount would even be a visibly noticeable weekly change for the person gaining it.

i don't buy it.

[adpayne]

No, you did not gain 33.5 lbs of lean mass in 3 months. If you did, then you should try to become the new all-natural Mr O, because you have the best genetics in the world...


Even 1 lb per week of pure lean mass for 3 months would be phenomenal, gains.. and you are trying to say you gained 3 times that.

I guarantee that you have gained a significant amount of fat, and wherever you are getting your body comp done is a very ****ty place..

You also could have gained alot of dead weight in the form of ****. Yes, I am 100% serious -- it is a very common thing these days...

If you read his posts, you can clearly see:

1. He was that weight previous to his cycling. Hence "muscle memory".

2. He had his bodyfat tested regularly.

This wasn't "brand new" muscle, and it is normal for people who have trained and taken a layoff to get back to original size very quickly.

BTW, there is a cyclist at my gym who fluctuates 25-30 lbs. on/off season. He is VERY lean even at his heavy weight.

Art

[RU4A69]

You're lifting 5 times a week and you expect to be gaining strength?

[li0scc0]

Guys, given what I had been doing to my body the previous 3.5 years, this is a very average muscle memory story. But if you don't believe it, I tell you what, I will issue a challenge:

1) Spend 3.5 years riding a bicycle 300-500 miles a week
2) In that timeframe, eat only 5% of calories from protein in order to lose as much size, including muscle, as you possibly can in order to be light to climb hills and mountains. No meat or eggs for 3.5 years, only protein sources are oatmeal and milk.
3) Lift NO weights other than your bicycle and your small children
4) Make sure in this timeframe that you verify that you have lost over 30 pounds of muscle based on scientific body composition testing via a University testing laboratory for collegiate athletes
5) Get to the point where you are in enough condition that you can ride your bike up to 8 hours at a time

Then start lifting intense again from day 1. Eat 30-35% of calories from protein. Lift scientifically, monitoring your heart rate 2-3 times a day to determine if you are overtraining. Get your bodyfat and body composition tested every two weeks at this laboratory to make sure you are gaining muscle and not fat, or only a minimal amount of fat. Adjust your diet as necessary based upon this body composition testing.

Do this for 3 months. If you have not gained all or at least the majority of the 30 pounds of muscle that you lost, well, then you win the challenge and I will eat crow.

[JUSA]

I don't know how you can say that, without at least knowing a person's starting point in terms of size and strength level. Say he was 120lbs with a 1RM of 135, then being able to do 225 for 5 reps at that point would be pretty damn good. What, do you expect everyone to be repping 315 after 2 years? Are YOU able to do that?

I haven't been lifting two years.

Based on his answer, I'm guessing he has a fairly mediocre training program. He's 21 and can still make good gains (which he has), but his lazy answer, and the fact he makes his own program, tell me everything I need to know.

I'm also pretty convinced his diet isn't where it needs to be. He didn't initially say it, but now the cat is out of the bag: He's not gaining any weight. To that there is only one irrefutable conclusion - he isn't eating enough. No wonder he hasn't gotten where he wants to be (although, to be frank, sounds like he's doing just fine and is experiencing a lot of muscle memory).

For most lifters, who are young, male and aren't physically handicapped - assuming they train smart and eat well, if they're only doing 225 for a couple reps after two years, that's a sign there is a serious problem with their training. Maybe I'm the big dope here and he's a pigmy or only has 1 arm or some other stupidity which I "foolishly" hadn't considered, but for most lifters, they ought to be hitting more.

I forget what the OP said he started at, but pushing through the usual amount of E-bull****, I say it's a safe bet that the gross majority of the (actual) progress he made was in his first year of lifting.

To you, Popeye, I don't get you. I didn't say anything very definitive. I guess in your world every 21-year old kid dicking around in the gym is doing everything right and there is no need to try and get them on the right path. Even when faced with the fact that the OP here is not eating enough, you decide it's better to jump on my ass for making the big-mean assumption that he's probably not eating right.

[li0scc0]

If you read his posts, you can clearly see:

1. He was that weight previous to his cycling. Hence "muscle memory".

2. He had his bodyfat tested regularly.

This wasn't "brand new" muscle, and it is normal for people who have trained and taken a layoff to get back to original size very quickly.

BTW, there is a cyclist at my gym who fluctuates 25-30 lbs. on/off season. He is VERY lean even at his heavy weight.

Art

Yes, the 25-30 pounds the cyclist you mention is fluctuating is likely predominantly MUSCLE. Cyclists starve themselves during the season to make weight. Thus we lose a TON of muscle - by design - that we don't need on the bike. Big chest, lats, and arms aren't needed on a bicycle, they are a detriment! We would measure our chests monthly and keep trying to get them lower and lower (a competitor I was friends with wore a 34 jacket and weighed 128 pounds at 25 years of age and at 5'9"). Even at 180 pounds folks suggested I drop another 15-20 pounds of torso and arm muscle. That's right...suggested I weigh in at 160 pounds. Last time I was 160 was the summer before my freshman year of high school. Starvation dieting, folks.

[JUSA]

Lioscco, I'm not reading your posts anymore, but you're not gaining and losing 30+ pounds of muscle every 2-3 months.

What is going on is the following:
- massive weight fluxuation in the fluids in the muscles, but not muscle-mass itself
- fat gain which you think is muscle
- someone's exaggerating/lying

Probably some combo of the above. Well, no probably about it. It's either one of them or some other answer (which isn't you gaining 33 pounds of muscle).

[BluntD]

ITo you, Popeye, I don't get you. I didn't say anything very definitive. I guess in your world every 21-year old kid dicking around in the gym is doing everything right and there is no need to try and get them on the right path. Even when faced with the fact that the OP here is not eating enough, you decide it's better to jump on my ass for making the big-mean assumption that he's probably not eating right.

I didn't comment on your advice. In fact you usually give out good advice, but the way you present yourself is ridiculous. Look at exactly what I commented on; I mentioned specifically that criticizing what a person is lifting after a certain amount of time, without having any clue whatsoever on their starting size, strength, background, etc. is flat-out ignorant. Guy later commented that he started at a 100lb bench, so being able to then get reps with 235 in 22 months time is a BIG improvement.

What really boggles my mind is that you critcize a weight someone is lifting when you CAN'T EVEN DO THAT AMOUNT YOURSELF. So where do you get off telling someone that they suck, yet you're still behind them? I don't care if you've been lifting 2 years or 2 months, until you accomplish that number YOURSELF then you have ZERO right to critcize, no matter how long or short it takes you to reach that goal. Besides, until you actually hit that goal yourself then you really have no basis on how long or how hard it takes to get there, right? May take YOU even longer then him, who knows; you won't until you lift it.

Frankly, I don't get you. You REPEATEDLY go out of your way to critcize just about everyone new on lifting, as if you are the "expert", and yet what, exactly, have YOU accomplished?? Please enlighten me. It's a shame, because if you didn't try to act like such a jerkoff, your advice would actually be helpful to those who really need it. But instead I'm sure they probably don't bother listening to you, and I can't blame them when you're coming off as such a prick. Why don't you drop the "internet tough-guy" charade and actually concentrate on really helping these people if you desire so much to do so.