Hypertrophy/Bodybuilding Routine

[sepandee]

Just a quick of question on form: the dumbbell bench press (on an incline, in my case). How far down do you bring the dumbbells? I usually bring it as far down as I can until I get a big stretch in my chest, but I recall reading somewhere (cressey?) that this is stupid and puts a lot of stress on the shoulders.

[ThatOneLurker]

Just a quick of question on form: the dumbbell bench press (on an incline, in my case). How far down do you bring the dumbbells? I usually bring it as far down as I can until I get a big stretch in my chest, but I recall reading somewhere (cressey?) that this is stupid and puts a lot of stress on the shoulders.

I do the same but the DB's end up 4 inches above my chest. If you feel no shoulder strain and your shoulder flexibility allows it, it should be fine.

[GeraltOfRivia5]

The anterior deltoid is without question the most overemphasized muscle in the entire history of strength training, no other muscle or muscle group even comes close, not even the infamous biceps and pecs. I've never in all my years of visiting gyms and hanging around bodybuilding forums seen a legitimate case of underdeveloped front delts.

Direct front delt exercises don't belong in the routines of beginner and intermediate lifters, I can't possibly think of a situation where I could justify including them. It's really a matter of priorities, rather than adding a direct exercise for a muscle which isn't lagging it makes far more sense to spend your training time and energy bringing up underdeveloped muscles or muscle groups instead.

The most commonly underdeveloped muscles or muscle groups (at least in my experience) are the mid back, rear delts and calves. Very rarely (I'm talking 1 in 1000) do I see someone with balanced front and rear delts, a proportional mid back is perhaps just as rare, most people are lat dominant, their lats are very well developed but their mid backs are essentially flat because their back workouts consist solely of vertical pulls and lat dominant rowing variations without any regard for targeting/emphasizing the mid back. As for proportionate calves just forget about it, I'd have an easier time finding a unicorn.

Whenever you're tempted to perform a direct front delt exercise go perform a rear delt exercise instead, in a few years from now when you're the only member of your gym with balanced front and rear delts you'll thank me for the advice.

You recommend daily side lateral raises, but wouldn't a pretty clever way of fixing this common lagging rear delts + mid back be (and also weak external rotator cuffs) = daily face pulls instead of daily side lateral raises? You have said facepulls hits the side delts very well, and it also hits rear delts + mid back + external rotator which would be very good for the common lifter. Is there any other reason you recommend daily side lateral raises instead of daily facepulls? Interested in hearing your thoughts here, thanks Kelei.

[sonnydfrizzy]

You recommend daily side lateral raises, but wouldn't a pretty clever way of fixing this common lagging rear delts + mid back be (and also weak external rotator cuffs) = daily face pulls instead of daily side lateral raises? You have said facepulls hits the side delts very well, and it also hits rear delts + mid back + external rotator which would be very good for the common lifter. Is there any other reason you recommend daily side lateral raises instead of daily facepulls? Interested in hearing your thoughts here, thanks Kelei.

Great question.
Just to throw my 2 cents out there:
-- Working on the rear delt, mid back and external rotators via facepulls may create residual fatigue that would hinder performance with rowing movements the day(s) following.
-- Side delts do not get used in any of the major movements of this program so any fatigue generated from daily lateral raises wouldn't hinder performance on subsequent exercises.
-- Facepulls LIGHT UP my side delts as well. I <3 facepulls

[SXElifter]

You recommend daily side lateral raises, but wouldn't a pretty clever way of fixing this common lagging rear delts + mid back be (and also weak external rotator cuffs) = daily face pulls instead of daily side lateral raises? You have said facepulls hits the side delts very well, and it also hits rear delts + mid back + external rotator which would be very good for the common lifter. Is there any other reason you recommend daily side lateral raises instead of daily facepulls? Interested in hearing your thoughts here, thanks Kelei.

Great question.
Just to throw my 2 cents out there:
-- Working on the rear delt, mid back and external rotators via facepulls may create residual fatigue that would hinder performance with rowing movements the day(s) following.
-- Side delts do not get used in any of the major movements of this program so any fatigue generated from daily lateral raises wouldn't hinder performance on subsequent exercises.
-- Facepulls LIGHT UP my side delts as well. I <3 facepulls

Yeah, that's a very good inquiry Geralt, but I was thinking the exact same thing as sonny. Kelei simply states that side delts respond very well to high frequency, and I'm thinking just because they are not heavily depended upon in any major exercise. Therefore it wouldn't matter if they are fatigued, unlike front and rear delts.

[seezam]

Hey all,

Got side tracked for a while (work, family problems, etc.) after having followed Kelei's original routine for a few months with great results. I'm 5'9", 150lbs and about 15% bf now. Just a quick question about this new routine. You all seem to have added a lot more exercises than he recommends in the original post. Should I start out with the ~5 exercises per day that he recommends in the original post and add more volume / exercises over time? Or were the exercises in the first post just examples? Do you recommend any HIIT to go along with it? I'd like to get down to 10% bf but maybe I should just eat at a deficit instead?

Thanks.

[Alyion]

^^^ Depends on you, if you are a beginner stay with the basics and get strong first - as time goes on (and strength goes up) you can add volume via additional sets and then additional exercises. If you already have decent numbers then run the additional stuff from the get go.

As for cutting/bulking again it depends on you - I however would run at maintenance while you get back into the swing of things just so you don't hit a wall and know what the routine demands for you.

[seezam]

Sounds good man! Thanks for the advice. I'll start with the basics to get back into things and start adding if I feel like I can handle it.

[milkbar]

I've got a deload week coming up on Monday, but I'm also going on vacation on Saturday for a week. Would you guys recommend I push back my deload week to Saturday, or take the two weeks off? When I asked about deload weeks before it was suggested I stick to my scheduled deload weeks, so I'm guessing I should take the two weeks off. I just know it's going to be harder coming back after two weeks as opposed to one.

[davo26]

I've got a deload week coming up on Monday, but I'm also going on vacation on Saturday for a week. Would you guys recommend I push back my deload week to Saturday, or take the two weeks off? When I asked about deload weeks before it was suggested I stick to my scheduled deload weeks, so I'm guessing I should take the two weeks off. I just know it's going to be harder coming back after two weeks as opposed to one.

personally id do another weeks workouts and then have a well earned rest, its no biggie. just do what you feel really, do you feel you got another week in you or are you totally knackered.

[daghetto]

so i usually take 3 days off for a deload week but this time i did the recommended one week off and i feel like a complete fat ass and lazy too. is that normal? lol..

also, lost some size in my arms by like .3 inches. im assuming its cause theres no lactic acid buildup from working out thats why?i thought deloads were supposed to get you 100% if not bigger and stronger.

[milkbar]

personally id do another weeks workouts and then have a well earned rest, its no biggie. just do what you feel really, do you feel you got another week in you or are you totally knackered.

Thanks, I'll do that. I'm not totally knackered, I can definitely go another week.

[BroncoBrit]

Long time lurker for this thread, first time poster. Decided to post results after 3 months of cutting using this program and now I'm transitioning to a bulk. I'd tried a range of other programs in the past, mostly strength 5x5 based programs and didn't enjoy them very much or get the results I'd hoped for. I think I built a solid strength base and have been really enjoying the Rest Pause style of training. I plan on contributing and tracking my workouts at my lifts and weight progresses. Currently sat at 177lbs, 5ft 11" and I'd estimate around 12% body fat. - imgur.com/cm3IGXS - apparently I can't post links.

[sepandee]

Hmmm, the thread is so quiet these days. How come?

Anyhoo, has anyone dealt with a third-degree separated AC? If you have, I'm just curious to learn about your experience. Was playing basketball on Monday and ran into someone my height by but twice my size when going for the loose ball. Ouch, that was painful. Sigh, now I gotta wait for 9-12 months before I'm back at where I was, best case scenario.

[Skwaats]

Hmmm, the thread is so quiet these days. How come?

Anyhoo, has anyone dealt with a third-degree separated AC? If you have, I'm just curious to learn about your experience. Was playing basketball on Monday and ran into someone my height by but twice my size when going for the loose ball. Ouch, that was painful. Sigh, now I gotta wait for 9-12 months before I'm back at where I was, best case scenario.

Long time lurker of the thread.. But I will chime in here.

1. People are not as active because they are busy making gains.
2. I would probably talk to your doc about the injury and do whatever you can to get rehabbed and better. I would not worry about making gains for the time being and just eat at maintenance and be persistent in your recovery. Wish you well my friend!

[Effrum]

I started a new job, dealt with some minor injuries, and have been traveling a lot recently - so I haven't had much time to check the forum (or even lift consistently, sadly). At best it was like 1 week on, 1 week off for the past few months (if I even got that much).

Things are calming down a bit now though, I think. Hoping to give the high frequency iteration kelei posted a try and get my routine back in order.

[komapOB]

Hey all I was hoping i could get some answers about a few questions Ive been having.

I did this routine last year for a few months and gained a few pounds. I barely got stronger but I put a solid inch on my arms and gained 0 noticeable fat (I actually looked leaner then before). I was eating in a 300-500 cal surplus too. This cant be normal can it?

Now i started this routine again this week and am loving it. However it doesnt seem as "hard" or "intense" as most of you all say it is. Does REST TIME matter as long as you get every rep in? On bench i take like 35 second rests to pump out sets of threes. I finish my 50 reps and im barely sweating. Mind you this is my 10 rep max not some baby weight. If I rest any shorter I wont be able to get 3 reps in that set. I only sweat a lot on small exercises where I can manage to rest 15 seconds or so. is this a problem? Im afraid I wont get stronger like what happened last year except this time I wont make those magic gains. I am eating in a surplus. Any advice?

[BroncoBrit]

Hey all I was hoping i could get some answers about a few questions Ive been having.

I did this routine last year for a few months and gained a few pounds. I barely got stronger but I put a solid inch on my arms and gained 0 noticeable fat (I actually looked leaner then before). I was eating in a 300-500 cal surplus too. This cant be normal can it?

Now i started this routine again this week and am loving it. However it doesnt seem as "hard" or "intense" as most of you all say it is. Does REST TIME matter as long as you get every rep in? On bench i take like 35 second rests to pump out sets of threes. I finish my 50 reps and im barely sweating. Mind you this is my 10 rep max not some baby weight. If I rest any shorter I wont be able to get 3 reps in that set. I only sweat a lot on small exercises where I can manage to rest 15 seconds or so. is this a problem? Im afraid I wont get stronger like what happened last year except this time I wont make those magic gains. I am eating in a surplus. Any advice?

Personally I take 10 deep breaths for rest, and will generally get 4-6 reps and if I only get 3 reps, I'll take 15.

That said, if you're doing this routine for strength gains then I think you're mis guided. This is a hypertrophy routine, so if you're growing and not getting fat, I don't see the problem?

[komapOB]

Personally I take 10 deep breaths for rest, and will generally get 4-6 reps and if I only get 3 reps, I'll take 15.

That said, if you're doing this routine for strength gains then I think you're mis guided. This is a hypertrophy routine, so if you're growing and not getting fat, I don't see the problem?

i have no conplaints about growing haha but I feel like on any routine your lifts should increase. My goal is hypertrophy but im wondering if I dont see my lifts increasing at all (no progressive overload) shouldnt that be a red flag? Last year i did this routine after a long break from lifting so it could be my old gains bouncing back

[Plogen]

i have no conplaints about growing haha but I feel like on any routine your lifts should increase. My goal is hypertrophy but im wondering if I dont see my lifts increasing at all (no progressive overload) shouldnt that be a red flag? Last year i did this routine after a long break from lifting so it could be my old gains bouncing back

I think there's quite a few factors to consider here. Having trained by Kelei's principles for 2 years I'll share my thought:
1: You mention you 'recently came back', did you take break? If you dont train consistently I think it's unreasonable to expect consistent results.
2: You are supposed to get stronger, but not in terms of a week as you mention or several weeks. Strength gains can take months or even years, which brings me over to next point:
3: My strength on benchpress has barely increased for a year. We're talking a 5kg increase in the course of a year - but my chest has developed alot. Proper loading and deloading is also very important from my experience. Since i started doing proper loading/deloading I have noticed tendences especcialy in strength, I will try to explain:

At the END of a loading, I'l be doing let's say 9 reps of 90kg (first set). After a proper deload of complete rest, I will then do same weight for let's say 10-11 reps. Then my loading continuefor 3 weeks, i will be more and more fatigued, and by the end of that loading phase, my rep count will have dropped down by 1 or 2 - it may very well happen that I am back down to 9 reps by the end of that loading, if i'm lucky, it will "only" have dropped down to 10 reps on my last session.
After the next deload and first day after deload I may now be doing 11-12 reps, and again, this will fall down by the course of the loading, maybe down to 10, or even down to 9 again, sometimes It may be as bad as 8 reps because I am so fatigued by the loading phase. Then again, third deaload and third loading starts - At this point I may do 12 reps or even 13 reps on my very first set, again, this will fall during that loading - but this time, it may "only" fall down to 10 or 11 reps, it has taken 2-3 months to only get 1-2 more reps in on average, if even that. This goes on and on. Let's say after another 2-3 cycles (sounds like I'm doing steroids lol) I will now be doing 11-12 reps at the end of my loading (I may be doing 12-14 reps at the start of loading), and at this point i'll consider increasing the weight.

So funnily enough, if you look at it in a 3 week perspective, I've actually lost stength. If you look at it in a 3 month perspective, I've BARELY just gained strength. If you look at it in a 3 year perspective I've probably added several kilograms.
Bottom line, if you take the example above (which is actually very accurate depiction of my progress the last 2 months) you will see that the timeframe here is not in weeks, it's in months... I think it's very unreasonable to expect linear strenght gains in a small timeframe. Anyways, i hope this helps

[komapOB]

I think there's quite a few factors to consider here. Having trained by Kelei's principles for 2 years I'll share my thought:
1: You mention you 'recently came back', did you take break? If you dont train consistently I think it's unreasonable to expect consistent results.
2: You are supposed to get stronger, but not in terms of a week as you mention or several weeks. Strength gains can take months or even years, which brings me over to next point:
3: My strength on benchpress has barely increased for a year. We're talking a 5kg increase in the course of a year - but my chest has developed alot. Proper loading and deloading is also very important from my experience. Since i started doing proper loading/deloading I have noticed tendences especcialy in strength, I will try to explain:

At the END of a loading, I'l be doing let's say 9 reps of 90kg (first set). After a proper deload of complete rest, I will then do same weight for let's say 10-11 reps. Then my loading continuefor 3 weeks, i will be more and more fatigued, and by the end of that loading phase, my rep count will have dropped down by 1 or 2 - it may very well happen that I am back down to 9 reps by the end of that loading, if i'm lucky, it will "only" have dropped down to 10 reps on my last session.
After the next deload and first day after deload I may now be doing 11-12 reps, and again, this will fall down by the course of the loading, maybe down to 10, or even down to 9 again, sometimes It may be as bad as 8 reps because I am so fatigued by the loading phase. Then again, third deaload and third loading starts - At this point I may do 12 reps or even 13 reps on my very first set, again, this will fall during that loading - but this time, it may "only" fall down to 10 or 11 reps, it has taken 2-3 months to only get 1-2 more reps in on average, if even that. This goes on and on. Let's say after another 2-3 cycles (sounds like I'm doing steroids lol) I will now be doing 11-12 reps at the end of my loading (I may be doing 12-14 reps at the start of loading), and at this point i'll consider increasing the weight.

So funnily enough, if you look at it in a 3 week perspective, I've actually lost stength. If you look at it in a 3 month perspective, I've BARELY just gained strength. If you look at it in a 3 year perspective I've probably added several kilograms.
Bottom line, if you take the example above (which is actually very accurate depiction of my progress the last 2 months) you will see that the timeframe here is not in weeks, it's in months... I think it's very unreasonable to expect linear strenght gains in a small timeframe. Anyways, i hope this helps

Wow. Glad someone made this clear to me lol. So during this period of several months when you barely made strength gains you still made great mass gains right? I personally dont care about strength, i just want to look aesthetic I just needed the guarantee that ill still be making good hypertrophy gains without getting fat. I guess my questions have been answered haha thanks a lot.

If you dont mind me asking, how much did you grow given this kind of strength progression?

[Plogen]

Wow. Glad someone made this clear to me lol. So during this period of several months when you barely made strength gains you still made great mass gains right? I personally dont care about strength, i just want to look aesthetic I just needed the guarantee that ill still be making good hypertrophy gains without getting fat. I guess my questions have been answered haha thanks a lot.

If you dont mind me asking, how much did you grow given this kind of strength progression?

This was only a 2,5 month period, which is a very little time..but yea there was very clear visual progression. I think it has to do the volume i put in since I doubled my volume during this time up to 60-80 reps and went all-in during loading. When I get the time I'm going to start experimenting with even higher volume during loading and see the results

[BroncoBrit]

I think there's quite a few factors to consider here. Having trained by Kelei's principles for 2 years I'll share my thought:
1: You mention you 'recently came back', did you take break? If you dont train consistently I think it's unreasonable to expect consistent results.
2: You are supposed to get stronger, but not in terms of a week as you mention or several weeks. Strength gains can take months or even years, which brings me over to next point:
3: My strength on benchpress has barely increased for a year. We're talking a 5kg increase in the course of a year - but my chest has developed alot. Proper loading and deloading is also very important from my experience. Since i started doing proper loading/deloading I have noticed tendences especcialy in strength, I will try to explain:

At the END of a loading, I'l be doing let's say 9 reps of 90kg (first set). After a proper deload of complete rest, I will then do same weight for let's say 10-11 reps. Then my loading continuefor 3 weeks, i will be more and more fatigued, and by the end of that loading phase, my rep count will have dropped down by 1 or 2 - it may very well happen that I am back down to 9 reps by the end of that loading, if i'm lucky, it will "only" have dropped down to 10 reps on my last session.
After the next deload and first day after deload I may now be doing 11-12 reps, and again, this will fall down by the course of the loading, maybe down to 10, or even down to 9 again, sometimes It may be as bad as 8 reps because I am so fatigued by the loading phase. Then again, third deaload and third loading starts - At this point I may do 12 reps or even 13 reps on my very first set, again, this will fall during that loading - but this time, it may "only" fall down to 10 or 11 reps, it has taken 2-3 months to only get 1-2 more reps in on average, if even that. This goes on and on. Let's say after another 2-3 cycles (sounds like I'm doing steroids lol) I will now be doing 11-12 reps at the end of my loading (I may be doing 12-14 reps at the start of loading), and at this point i'll consider increasing the weight.

So funnily enough, if you look at it in a 3 week perspective, I've actually lost stength. If you look at it in a 3 month perspective, I've BARELY just gained strength. If you look at it in a 3 year perspective I've probably added several kilograms.
Bottom line, if you take the example above (which is actually very accurate depiction of my progress the last 2 months) you will see that the timeframe here is not in weeks, it's in months... I think it's very unreasonable to expect linear strenght gains in a small timeframe. Anyways, i hope this helps

Could you organize your loading/deloading philosophy a little more intuitively/reader friendly?

[Plogen]

Could you organize your loading/deloading philosophy a little more intuitively/reader friendly?

I will try

1st month: 10-11 reps first day(session) of loading. 8-9 reps last day of that same loading phase
2nd Month: 11-12 reps first day of loading. 9-10 reps last day of loading
3rd month: 12-13 reps first day of loading. 10-11 reps last day of loading
etc.

So what's happening is that I put so much intensity and volume into the loading phases that I fatigue myself in only 3 weeks depending on volume, this is what I think atleast - could be other factors. sometimes I will be able to do same amount of reps last session as first session, and that's probably OK, but I see this as a sign I haven't trained enough. I think that the way to train on this program as efficiently as possible is to not restrict yourself during loading and have the goal of becoming as weak and fatigued as possible during the last few sessions of loading, provided that nutrition is top notch But this is nothing new, this is pretty much what the program says you are supposed to do. After all it's only what's happening to me, it's individual and others may have different tendences in their progression

[ThatOneLurker]

When I get the time I'm going to start experimenting with even higher volume during loading and see the results

Better be wary of your joints.

[Plogen]

Better be wary of your joints.

definately.. things like that are gonna be a limiting factor sadly

[Kelei]

When it comes to gaining strength it's very important that you attempt to perform the concentric portion of every rep as explosively/fast as possible, always 100% maximal effort.

[nerynery]

One question guys:

I've been doing Back Squats for the past year, currently 10x120kg. Kelei-style.
I've been playing with Front Squat a bit, and want to start introducing it, but don't want to remove the Back Squat, which I enjoy doing really much.

So, instead of doing Kelei-style Back Squat for my Leg Workout, I'm considering doing like this (doing 35reps atm):

1. Olympic Back Squat 3x5 (increase weight when all reps completed)
2. Front Squat 20reps (using 12RM, increase weight when 12+ reps first set).

This way I'll keep increasing my Back Squat strength (which I enjoy a lot), introduce Front Squats and still accomplish my total volume (35 reps) for hypertrophy.

any opinion? Thanks

[komapOB]

When it comes to gaining strength it's very important that you attempt to perform the concentric portion of every rep as explosively/fast as possible, always 100% maximal effort.

So for example on bench, you would bring the bar down slow, touch chest, then explode the bar up as fast as possible?

Also... Im not getting sore. Barely sore if any. The first week I was sore as hell but no longer getting sore. Is this a problem or does this mean im just recovering well?

[edelacruz1]

I will try

1st month: 10-11 reps first day(session) of loading. 8-9 reps last day of that same loading phase
2nd Month: 11-12 reps first day of loading. 9-10 reps last day of loading
3rd month: 12-13 reps first day of loading. 10-11 reps last day of loading
etc.

So what's happening is that I put so much intensity and volume into the loading phases that I fatigue myself in only 3 weeks depending on volume, this is what I think atleast - could be other factors. sometimes I will be able to do same amount of reps last session as first session, and that's probably OK, but I see this as a sign I haven't trained enough. I think that the way to train on this program as efficiently as possible is to not restrict yourself during loading and have the goal of becoming as weak and fatigued as possible during the last few sessions of loading, provided that nutrition is top notch But this is nothing new, this is pretty much what the program says you are supposed to do. After all it's only what's happening to me, it's individual and others may have different tendences in their progression

Is this enough progressive overload to make change? It seems very slow.