Hypertrophy/Bodybuilding Routine

[Alyion]

^^^^Probably, but it doesn't really matter - incline (and other pressing or tricep work) will always suffer if they aren't done fresh, but provided exercise order/volume is kept constant across everything it won't affect much.

[ThatOneLurker]

The main reason would be postural issues can arise if your front delts overpower the rear - you can do ohp/front delt work if you want (such as the area genetically lagging or plain just enjoying the exercise) but I would add more rear delt work to balance it out. Don't think you are missing out on development though as flat and incline hit front delts very well.

DB shoulder presses are a solid exercise and target the upper chest nicely.

It's just one exercise that requires another to counter balance it; I don't see why someone would want to miss out on it because incline and flat target the front delts ''enough''. When taking that advice for the back and dropping rear delt work my rear delts had noticeably less of their usual 'pop'.

[sonnydfrizzy]

Thanks for the reply. Some questions tho

D1
I want delts to be my strong point if my genetics will allow it so why no DB OHP?
Also why not lateral raises every day like OP says?

Front delt is hit very hard with the flat and incline presses. DB Ohp is not as effective at targeting the side delt as the lateral raise is.

I gave you a template. Follow the OP and do them every day if you wish.

D3
Any way to avoid leg curls? Even if it means sacrificing leg extensions. They are very uncomfortable for me, sometimes painful. Might get a doc to check it out.
And why no calves every day like OP says?

You must do some sort of knee flexion movement in your programming. The correlation between knee flexion strength and patellar health has been shown time and time again in the literature.

Do a variation of the hamstring curl to save your knees, improve your posture, and ensure no imbalances occur in the lower body. Poor lower body development and balance = upper body *cough cough your BACK* will have to be the compensatory muscle group in certain movements. Leads to injury.

Do them every day like the OP states. I gave you an EXAMPLE routine.

DB shoulder presses are a solid exercise and target the upper chest nicely.

DB shoulder presses work the upper chest? That is incorrect.
A barbell OHP taken to the collar bone maybe but not a correctly done DB OHP.

It's just one exercise that requires another to counter balance it; I don't see why someone would want to miss out on it because incline and flat target the front delts ''enough''. When taking that advice for the back and dropping rear delt work my rear delts had noticeably less of their usual 'pop'.

Doing an OHP movement is a great idea IMO for the sheer fact you are not neglecting a plane of movement... HOWEVER, you will notice that a lot of individuals lack the mobility to do a proper OHP and their shoulders take a beating in the long run.

It is the risk v. reward that you have to determine for yourself. If you can continue to overload side raises then do that.


Fasted Training Talk
Anyone been using it and found tips/hacks that allow your energy and focus to remain steady throughout without the crash?

[nathangreen]

Front delt is hit very hard with the flat and incline presses. DB Ohp is not as effective at targeting the side delt as the lateral raise is.

I gave you a template. Follow the OP and do them every day if you wish.

You must do some sort of knee flexion movement in your programming. The correlation between knee flexion strength and patellar health has been shown time and time again in the literature.

Do a variation of the hamstring curl to save your knees, improve your posture, and ensure no imbalances occur in the lower body. Poor lower body development and balance = upper body *cough cough your BACK* will have to be the compensatory muscle group in certain movements. Leads to injury.

Do them every day like the OP states. I gave you an EXAMPLE routine.

DB shoulder presses work the upper chest? That is incorrect.
A barbell OHP taken to the collar bone maybe but not a correctly done DB OHP.


Doing an OHP movement is a great idea IMO for the sheer fact you are not neglecting a plane of movement... HOWEVER, you will notice that a lot of individuals lack the mobility to do a proper OHP and their shoulders take a beating in the long run.

It is the risk v. reward that you have to determine for yourself. If you can continue to overload side raises then do that.


Fasted Training Talk
Anyone been using it and found tips/hacks that allow your energy and focus to remain steady throughout without the crash?

It shouldn't take a "hack" to do a workout fasted. For the most part the most you're actually "fasted" isn't really that long. You keep talking about having hypoglycemic issues, but that is atypical. Glucose levels are tightly regulated and unless you're diabetic, have other medical issues, or doing long endurance type events you shouldn't be experiencing any "true" hypoglycemic symptoms.

As long as my daily calories are met, i usually preform better fasted in the morning. Preworkout + BCAA added most of the time but not needed. My last meal is around 9PM and workout around 6am. That's not long at all

[ThatOneLurker]

DB shoulder presses work the upper chest? That is incorrect.
A barbell OHP taken to the collar bone maybe but not a correctly done DB OHP.


Fasted Training Talk
Anyone been using it and found tips/hacks that allow your energy and focus to remain steady throughout without the crash?

I have a nice MMC with my upper chest when doing an upright seated DB shoulder press. It could also be due to my chest insertions.

Your impulse to jump in and label something as incorrect is pompous, especially in the realm of doing an exercise.

Maybe your issue with fasted training is more mental than it is physical, 100ml black coffee + BCAAs offer me no consequences nor the hypoglycemic symptoms you take on.

It shouldn't take a "hack" to do a workout fasted. For the most part the most you're actually "fasted" isn't really that long. You keep talking about having hypoglycemic issues, but that is atypical. Glucose levels are tightly regulated and unless you're diabetic, have other medical issues, or doing long endurance type events you shouldn't be experiencing any "true" hypoglycemic symptoms.

As long as my daily calories are met, i usually preform better fasted in the morning. Preworkout + BCAA added most of the time but not needed. My last meal is around 9PM and workout around 6am. That's not long at all

My workouts occur between 12-16 hours of fasting but I have yet to try a fasted AM workout.. Those seem a bit daunting to me lol


edit: on a sidenote, I find it disheartening that I do not get the tingles associated with beta alanine use. I take purple wraath BCAAs which have beta alanine in it and I have pure beta alanine powder which I used in the spring in very high doses which provided tingles in my toes as I drove to the gym, at which point they faded.

[newbie251981]

any result pic since using this routine?

thinking of using this but use lower/upper as i dont want to wake up earlier to workout in 4-5 days in a row before work. lower/upper only 2 days before work.

squat, rdl, lunges, calf raise

bench, chin up, ohp, supinated row

thanks.

[Mrpb]

DB shoulder presses work the upper chest? That is incorrect.
A barbell OHP taken to the collar bone maybe but not a correctly done DB OHP.

IMO you put that a bit too black & white. A seated dumbbell press let's say on 80 degree angle will recruit some upper chest for most. Will it target the upper chest? Usually not very effectively.

When people use a smaller angle and/or an arched back upper chest recruitment tends to go up.

[sonnydfrizzy]

IMO you put that a bit too black & white. A seated dumbbell press let's say on 80 degree angle will recruit some upper chest for most. Will it target the upper chest? Usually not very effectively.

When people use a smaller angle and/or an arched back upper chest recruitment tends to go up.

I said a properly done DB OHP which is without lumbar extension and compensation.
Sure a high incline press (which is what an 80 degree OHP would be) hits the upper chest.

A strict DB OHP keeps the dumbbells in line with the midline of the body.

[Mrpb]

I said a properly done DB OHP which is without lumbar extension and compensation.
Sure a high incline press (which is what an 80 degree OHP would be) hits the upper chest.

A strict DB OHP keeps the dumbbells in line with the midline of the body.

Even a strict seated dumbbell press at 90 degree angle will recruit some upper chest.

That being said probably 90% of the people I see in the gym do not use a 90 degree angle on the seated dumbbell press.

[Jasonk282]

I said a properly done DB OHP which is without lumbar extension and compensation.
Sure a high incline press (which is what an 80 degree OHP would be) hits the upper chest.

A strict DB OHP keeps the dumbbells in line with the midline of the body.

This is like saying flat bench won;t recruit SOME front delts...

[sonnydfrizzy]

Even a strict seated dumbbell press at 90 degree angle will recruit some upper chest.

That being said probably 90% of the people I see in the gym do not use a 90 degree angle on the seated dumbbell press.

The proper way to do a seated db ohp is without lumbar or thoracic compensation.. However, most are using a bit of extension when doing the exercise so I can see from where you are coming.

My opinion is pliable. How can upper chest receive development from such a movement when keeping the dumbell in line with the middle of the body? It would seem like a very, very small stimulus on the upper chest.

This is like saying flat bench won;t recruit SOME front delts...

That is absolutely not in line with the current argument lol
Bench will always work the front delt since its primary function is flexion, horizontal adduction and internal rotation of glenohumeral joint..

Upper chest raises the arm to the front, so I am not seeing how an overhead movement can work the upper chest.

[Jasonk282]

..

Upper chest raises the arm to the front, so I am not seeing how an overhead movement can work the upper chest.

Oly lifters very rarely, if ever bench press, mainly due to it being hard on the shoulders and reducing shoulder ROM, which they need in the snatch, clean and jerk. However they do a LOT of overhead pressing and you'd be hard pressed to find oly lifters without decent chest development.

[ttuTRAP]

Oly lifters very rarely, if ever bench press, mainly due to it being hard on the shoulders and reducing shoulder ROM, which they need in the snatch, clean and jerk. However they do a LOT of overhead pressing and you'd be hard pressed to find oly lifters without decent chest development.

they do assistance work like dips and push ups

[Mrpb]

Here's a real world overhead dumbbell press, at 2:50 minutes.

I bet there's some significant upper chest activation happening. And as said, this won't be the most effective way to build the upper chest of course.

[Jasonk282]

they do assistance work like dips and push ups

IO never said they don;t. However as assistance work it's not the main focus for them. As I said before Oly lifters do very littler, to any direct chest lifts as it has an adverse effect of their mobility.

[sonnydfrizzy]

Oly lifters very rarely, if ever bench press, mainly due to it being hard on the shoulders and reducing shoulder ROM, which they need in the snatch, clean and jerk. However they do a LOT of overhead pressing and you'd be hard pressed to find oly lifters without decent chest development.

I was referring to a dumbbell overhead press. I said in my OP that a barbell OHP done to the clavicle is definitely hitting the upper chest.

[sonnydfrizzy]

Here's a real world overhead dumbbell press, at 2:50 minutes.

I bet there's some significant upper chest activation happening. And as said, this won't be the most effective way to build the upper chest of course.

He is turning that into more of a high incline press and he is doing it standing.

I think our debate is over two different variants of an OHP. What I am saying is the seated db ohp.

Agreed on the last part though.

[Mrpb]

He is turning that into more of a high incline press ...

Yeah agreed but that's what you see >90% of the times in the gym. I'd like to see your perfect seated dumbbell press without upper chest recruitment

[sonnydfrizzy]

Yeah agreed but that's what you see >90% of the times in the gym. I'd like to see your perfect seated dumbbell press without upper chest recruitment

That would mean an individual would leave ALL of the ego out of the lift and doing it with such strict form (and decent mobility which most don't have) that the weights they would use is pitiful.

Who doesn't ego lift besides Sonny? lmao

[Kelei]

The anterior deltoid is without question the most overemphasized muscle in the entire history of strength training, no other muscle or muscle group even comes close, not even the infamous biceps and pecs. I've never in all my years of visiting gyms and hanging around bodybuilding forums seen a legitimate case of underdeveloped front delts.

Direct front delt exercises don't belong in the routines of beginner and intermediate lifters, I can't possibly think of a situation where I could justify including them. It's really a matter of priorities, rather than adding a direct exercise for a muscle which isn't lagging it makes far more sense to spend your training time and energy bringing up underdeveloped muscles or muscle groups instead.

The most commonly underdeveloped muscles or muscle groups (at least in my experience) are the mid back, rear delts and calves. Very rarely (I'm talking 1 in 1000) do I see someone with balanced front and rear delts, a proportional mid back is perhaps just as rare, most people are lat dominant, their lats are very well developed but their mid backs are essentially flat because their back workouts consist solely of vertical pulls and lat dominant rowing variations without any regard for targeting/emphasizing the mid back. As for proportionate calves just forget about it, I'd have an easier time finding a unicorn.

Whenever you're tempted to perform a direct front delt exercise go perform a rear delt exercise instead, in a few years from now when you're the only member of your gym with balanced front and rear delts you'll thank me for the advice.

[klaximilian]

Kelei...was thinking of running a minimalist routine in a recomp effort. I have some left knee pain due to injury, but I can work around it with leg press instead of squats. I'll be running it 4x/week, and doing it in timed (how many reps can I do RP in 8 minutes, etc...)

What do you think of this setup:

Flat/Incline Bench Press
Sumo/Standard Deadlift
Leg Press
Seated Cable Rows

Added Assistance (optional)

Day 1: Arms/Shoulders
Day 2: Legs
Day 3: Back/Chest
Day 4: None

[DamonX]

@lurker Good to hear IF is treating you well man. Really has made quality of life better for me.

@klaximillian looking good man, you're definitely 9-10% for sure. Looking solid in that pic.
Im currently cutting right now, gonna do a show early next year. Da struggle of cutting during a semester

[bmcblinz]

Kelei...was thinking of running a minimalist routine...

Flat/Incline Bench Press
Sumo/Standard Deadlift
Leg Press
Seated Cable Rows

Kelei, I'm also going for a minimalist routine similar to the three-exercise routine you gave to one of your trainees.

My routine would look like:
30 mins Seated Row
30 mins Guillotine/DB Bench
30 mins Leg Press
30 mins Hamstring Curls

A couple of questions though -

a) I have no access to a trap bar, so is it properly balanced if I replace it with leg press and ham curls (regarding glute work?)

b) How do you progress? I was wondering what was the progression scheme for your minimalist trainee, did he only do full sets of 10-12, or do AMRAP every set, or rest-pause?

c) For chest, would it balance my biceps/triceps better if I did Guillotine press or Flat/Incline DB Bench? I understood that Guillotine doesn't involve as much triceps..

[nathangreen]

The anterior deltoid is without question the most overemphasized muscle in the entire history of strength training, no other muscle or muscle group even comes close, not even the infamous biceps and pecs. I've never in all my years of visiting gyms and hanging around bodybuilding forums seen a legitimate case of underdeveloped front delts.

Direct front delt exercises don't belong in the routines of beginner and intermediate lifters, I can't possibly think of a situation where I could justify including them. It's really a matter of priorities, rather than adding a direct exercise for a muscle which isn't lagging it makes far more sense to spend your training time and energy bringing up underdeveloped muscles or muscle groups instead.

The most commonly underdeveloped muscles or muscle groups (at least in my experience) are the mid back, rear delts and calves. Very rarely (I'm talking 1 in 1000) do I see someone with balanced front and rear delts, a proportional mid back is perhaps just as rare, most people are lat dominant, their lats are very well developed but their mid backs are essentially flat because their back workouts consist solely of vertical pulls and lat dominant rowing variations without any regard for targeting/emphasizing the mid back. As for proportionate calves just forget about it, I'd have an easier time finding a unicorn.

Whenever you're tempted to perform a direct front delt exercise go perform a rear delt exercise instead, in a few years from now when you're the only member of your gym with balanced front and rear delts you'll thank me for the advice.

Have you posted anything before for stubborn calves? Definite weak point for me, despite lack of effort. Currently trying up to 100reps/day 5-6x weekly and still not sure I'm seeing any growth. Tried everything and anything

[Kelei]

Have you posted anything before for stubborn calves? Definite weak point for me, despite lack of effort. Currently trying up to 100reps/day 5-6x weekly and still not sure I'm seeing any growth. Tried everything and anything

Even if you're training the calves properly they still grow very slowly, for example Arnold said it took 500 hours of direct calf training to bring his lagging calves up to par, even if you were to perform 30 minutes of direct calf training every day it would still require 1000 days to get the job done.

Something like this should work well:

Morning = Standing calf raises, 10 sets to failure, 2 minutes between sets, add more weight once you can complete 30 reps in your first set
Evening = Seated calf raises, 5 sets to failure, 1 minute rest between sets, add more weight once you can complete 100 reps in your first set

This routine should be performed every day (no less than 6 days per week). Pain will likely force you to stop during seated calf raises before you reach failure so just perform as many reps as your pain tolerance allows. When it comes time to add more weight make sure to add the smallest amount of weight possible. You might want to ease into the routine as well, spend a week ramping up to the full number of sets so that you don't cripple yourself with DOMS.

After 2-3 years (don't be disheartened lol) of this you'll have enviable calves.

[nathangreen]

Even if you're training the calves properly they still grow very slowly, for example Arnold said it took 500 hours of direct calf training to bring his lagging calves up to par, even if you were to perform 30 minutes of direct calf training every day it would still require 1000 days to get the job done.

Something like this should work well:

Morning = Standing calf raises, 10 sets to failure, 2 minutes between sets, add more weight once you can complete 30 reps in your first set
Evening = Seated calf raises, 5 sets to failure, 1 minute rest between sets, add more weight once you can complete 100 reps in your first set

This routine should be performed every day (no less than 6 days per week). Pain will likely force you to stop during seated calf raises before you reach failure so just perform as many reps as your pain tolerance allows. When it comes time to add more weight make sure to add the smallest amount of weight possible. You might want to ease into the routine as well, spend a week ramping up to the full number of sets so that you don't cripple yourself with DOMS.

After 2-3 years (don't be disheartened lol) of this you'll have enviable calves.

Do you have a 2nd best option? Something that wouldn't require 2 trips to the gym which many can't do (myself included). Maybe something at home + gym?

[bmcblinz]

Kelei, I'm also going for a minimalist routine similar to the three-exercise routine you gave to one of your trainees.

My routine would look like:
30 mins Seated Row
30 mins Guillotine/DB Bench
30 mins Leg Press
30 mins Hamstring Curls

A couple of questions though -

a) I have no access to a trap bar, so is it properly balanced if I replace it with leg press and ham curls (regarding glute work?)

b) How do you progress? I was wondering what was the progression scheme for your minimalist trainee, did he only do full sets of 10-12, or do AMRAP every set, or rest-pause?

c) For chest, would it balance my biceps/triceps better if I did Guillotine press or Flat/Incline DB Bench? I understood that Guillotine doesn't involve as much triceps..

bump for Kelei

[Effrum]

Do you have a 2nd best option? Something that wouldn't require 2 trips to the gym which many can't do (myself included). Maybe something at home + gym?

There's nothing saying you have to go to the gym for all of it, right? You could do 1 exercise at the gym and then find a way to work at home for the 2nd exercise. It's definitely possible to do standing or seated calf raises at home, although you may use less weight (which means you just need to do more volume). If you have a bb and plates, you could do seated raises by putting the barbell across your legs, you'd just want some kind of pad to keep it from being painful once you hit heavier weight.

Just throwing some suggestions around since what Kelei posted was just an example, you don't necessarily have to do that exactly, just something that follows the same principle of "do **** tons of volume every day".

[nathangreen]

There's nothing saying you have to go to the gym for all of it, right? You could do 1 exercise at the gym and then find a way to work at home for the 2nd exercise. It's definitely possible to do standing or seated calf raises at home, although you may use less weight (which means you just need to do more volume). If you have a bb and plates, you could do seated raises by putting the barbell across your legs, you'd just want some kind of pad to keep it from being painful once you hit heavier weight.

Just throwing some suggestions around since what Kelei posted was just an example, you don't necessarily have to do that exactly, just something that follows the same principle of "do **** tons of volume every day".

If you had that it would work, but personally I don't have any workout equipment at home nor do I have room for any in an apartment. Maybe I can just do 10 min of standing calf raises with a controlled tempo. I've read a routine that recommended that every day before.

[Effrum]

If you had that it would work, but personally I don't have any workout equipment at home nor do I have room for any in an apartment. Maybe I can just do 10 min of standing calf raises with a controlled tempo. I've read a routine that recommended that every day before.

Yeah, I don't have any equipment in my apartment either. The timed calf raises is probably your best bet. I just figured I'd try to throw some alternatives around.