Hypertrophy/Bodybuilding Routine

[Kelei]

Something like that. It depends on my mood but I make it a point to eat atleast 7 eggs.

You'll be fine without meat, milk and eggs will do the job just fine. If possible try to supplement with creatine, your intake will be very low if you're not eating meat, people with low meat intakes respond very well to creatine, people with high meat intakes might not respond at all because they're already getting more than enough from meat.

Are you taking a multi? You'll likely need some help with your iron and zinc intakes.

[Qxx]

Double or triple total reps (80-120) is overkill... unless

Lulz, no. I did the very first routine (the PPL) at 100 reps per exercise. It was the best I've ever experienced. Also the hardest I experienced. Don't try when you're not consistently getting 9/10+ hours of sleep each day and if your good intake isn't spot on.

And since you're all very predictable: yes, all done without le j00ce.

[Kelei]

Lulz, no. I did the very first routine (the PPL) at 100 reps per exercise. It was the best I've ever experienced. Also the hardest I experienced. Don't try when you're not consistently getting 9/10+ hours of sleep each day and if your good intake isn't spot on.

And since you're all very predictable: yes, all done without le j00ce.

And it's very important to eat a lot of starch (rice, pasta etc) otherwise you'll tank very quickly, a low carb diet combined with a high volume routine never ends well, lol.

In fact I believe that most cases of "overtraining" are actually induced by an insufficient carb intake, insufficient choline intake and not enough sleep. Most people are clueless as to just how important choline is for hard training, it's required to produce the neurotransmitter acetylcholine.

Acetylcholine levels can become depleted after a period of hard training as it's used every time you contract a muscle (especially intense contractions with very heavy weights or reps near failure), if you don't include enough choline in your diet you'll eventually start to feel weak, lethargic, depressed, you'll have trouble sleeping and your entire nervous system will be depressed. A choline deficiency induces symptoms that most people associate with CNS fatigue.

Regarding the natural vs enhanced debate I will tell you all my experience......

My volume is very high although it doesn't change when training naturally or with enhancement, in both cases the total number of reps per exercise remains the same, it's simply the amount of weight I lift that changes. When on cycle I might perform 100 total reps with 300 pounds, when off cycle I might perform 100 total reps with 240 pounds.

Performing 100 total reps with 300 pounds is far more demanding than performing 100 total reps with only 240 pounds, there's no need for me to reduce the total number of reps I perform for recovery purposes because the reduced amount of weight I'm lifting has already taken care of that.

And I don't voluntarily reduce the amount of weight I lift when off cycle, strength losses make it inevitable, with every passing weak I get weaker and weaker and need to keep gradually reducing my weights until my strength finally stabilizes at my natural strength limits.

I was performing 40-50 set leg workouts long before I ever touched steroids, I don't think it's necessarily true that natural lifters can't train with a lot of volume.

The secret is LOTS of carbs from starch (2 grams per pound minimum), heaps of eggs (at least 6 per day), and plenty of protein in general (1.5 grams per pound of lean body mass) which I prefer to get from dairy (mostly milk) and meat sources as they are very high quality sources.

The primary nutrients you need to support high volume training are:

- Protein
- Complex carbs (starch)
- Arachidonic acid
- Choline
- Cholesterol
- Creatine

If you follow these basic nutrition guidelines you'll be amazed at how much volume you can train with and thrive on.

[ind1111]

Hi guys, you think I should cut or bulk?
And for how long?

Also recomping is one of the general preference over cutting in this thread, is it also significantly better?
What's the difference?

Thank you!

[Waitwhat10]

You'll be fine without meat, milk and eggs will do the job just fine. If possible try to supplement with creatine, your intake will be very low if you're not eating meat, people with low meat intakes respond very well to creatine, people with high meat intakes might not respond at all because they're already getting more than enough from meat.

Are you taking a multi? You'll likely need some help with your iron and zinc intakes.

1 multivitamin per day


ascorbic acid 150 mg
biotin 0.25 mg
calcium pantothenate 16.3 mg
calcium phosphate 129 mg
copper sulphate 3.39 mg
dried ferrous sulphate IP 32.04 mg
magnesium oxide 60 mg,
manganese sulphate 2.03 mg
nicotinamide 100 mg
phosphorus 25.8 mg
sodium borate 0.88 mg
sodium molybdate 0.25 mg
vitamin A 10000 iu
vitamin B1 10 mg
vitamin B12 15 mcg
vitamin B2 10 mg
vitamin B6 3 mg
vitamin D3 1000 iu
vitamin E 25 mg
zinc sulphate 2.2 mg

So Iron is 32mg and zinc is 2.2 mg.

plus 1000mg vitamin C for better absorption of iron(don't know if this is bro science or not)

I'll start taking creatine


After workout I take either 1 liter of milk or eggs. Which do you think is better?

Milk has both whey and casein so most of the time I take milk, are eggs better?

[ddosh]

And it's very important to eat a lot of starch (rice, pasta etc) otherwise you'll tank very quickly, a low carb diet combined with a high volume routine never ends well, lol.

In fact I believe that most cases of "overtraining" are actually induced by an insufficient carb intake, insufficient choline intake and not enough sleep. Most people are clueless as to just how important choline is for hard training, it's required to produce the neurotransmitter acetylcholine.

Acetylcholine levels can become depleted after a period of hard training as it's used every time you contract a muscle (especially intense contractions with very heavy weights or reps near failure), if you don't include enough choline in your diet you'll eventually start to feel weak, lethargic, depressed, you'll have trouble sleeping and your entire nervous system will be depressed. A choline deficiency induces symptoms that most people associate with CNS fatigue.

Regarding the natural vs enhanced debate I will tell you all my experience......

My volume is very high although it doesn't change when training naturally or with enhancement, in both cases the total number of reps per exercise remains the same, it's simply the amount of weight I lift that changes. When on cycle I might perform 100 total reps with 300 pounds, when off cycle I might perform 100 total reps with 240 pounds.

Performing 100 total reps with 300 pounds is far more demanding than performing 100 total reps with only 240 pounds, there's no need for me to reduce the total number of reps I perform for recovery purposes because the reduced amount of weight I'm lifting has already taken care of that.

And I don't voluntarily reduce the amount of weight I lift when off cycle, strength losses make it inevitable, with every passing weak I get weaker and weaker and need to keep gradually reducing my weights until my strength finally stabilizes at my natural strength limits.

I was performing 40-50 set leg workouts long before I ever touched steroids, I don't think it's necessarily true that natural lifters can't train with a lot of volume.

The secret is LOTS of carbs from starch (2 grams per pound minimum), heaps of eggs (at least 6 per day), and plenty of protein in general (1.5 grams per pound of lean body mass) which I prefer to get from dairy (mostly milk) and meat sources as they are very high quality sources.

The primary nutrients you need to support high volume training are:

- Protein
- Complex carbs (starch)
- Arachidonic acid
- Choline
- Cholesterol
- Creatine

If you follow these basic nutrition guidelines you'll be amazed at how much volume you can train with and thrive on.

Hi Kelei

First off all thanks for sharing your experiance you seem to have a lot of knowledge here. I have some open questions for you.

- What do you think about fruits? Are they needed or do you take your vitamins via supplements?
- What do you think/recommend for fiber intake?
- At your carb intake you are calculating with pounds, the protein intake also calculatet in pounds? So 1,5xpounds would put me way over 200gr of protein per day....

So if I take my calories while bulking (3000) that would be 360carbs (minimum) around 230-240 Protein and the rest would be fat (about 60-70gr)
If I drink and eat that amount of milk/eggs I think my fat intake would be much higher...

BTW interested to coach a natty from Switzerland?

[Waitwhat10]

And it's very important to eat a lot of starch (rice, pasta etc) otherwise you'll tank very quickly, a low carb diet combined with a high volume routine never ends well, lol.

In fact I believe that most cases of "overtraining" are actually induced by an insufficient carb intake, insufficient choline intake and not enough sleep. Most people are clueless as to just how important choline is for hard training, it's required to produce the neurotransmitter acetylcholine.

Acetylcholine levels can become depleted after a period of hard training as it's used every time you contract a muscle (especially intense contractions with very heavy weights or reps near failure), if you don't include enough choline in your diet you'll eventually start to feel weak, lethargic, depressed, you'll have trouble sleeping and your entire nervous system will be depressed. A choline deficiency induces symptoms that most people associate with CNS fatigue.

Regarding the natural vs enhanced debate I will tell you all my experience......

My volume is very high although it doesn't change when training naturally or with enhancement, in both cases the total number of reps per exercise remains the same, it's simply the amount of weight I lift that changes. When on cycle I might perform 100 total reps with 300 pounds, when off cycle I might perform 100 total reps with 240 pounds.

Performing 100 total reps with 300 pounds is far more demanding than performing 100 total reps with only 240 pounds, there's no need for me to reduce the total number of reps I perform for recovery purposes because the reduced amount of weight I'm lifting has already taken care of that.

And I don't voluntarily reduce the amount of weight I lift when off cycle, strength losses make it inevitable, with every passing weak I get weaker and weaker and need to keep gradually reducing my weights until my strength finally stabilizes at my natural strength limits.

I was performing 40-50 set leg workouts long before I ever touched steroids, I don't think it's necessarily true that natural lifters can't train with a lot of volume.

The secret is LOTS of carbs from starch (2 grams per pound minimum), heaps of eggs (at least 6 per day), and plenty of protein in general (1.5 grams per pound of lean body mass) which I prefer to get from dairy (mostly milk) and meat sources as they are very high quality sources.

The primary nutrients you need to support high volume training are:

- Protein
- Complex carbs (starch)
- Arachidonic acid
- Choline
- Cholesterol
- Creatine

If you follow these basic nutrition guidelines you'll be amazed at how much volume you can train with and thrive on.

Well that makes me happy. I don't eat meat right now because I can't afford it but if I can get most of my protein from eggs and dairy without compromising my health and taking supplements then I'll do that until it's impracticable even after I start my practice as a vet after graduating.

Working for a non-profit, I can tell you I've seem some ****ked-up **** when is comes to butchering animals for meat. My senior was in charge of fixing most of the botched butchering and torture(some did it if the animals misbehaved when being killed). Some idiot butchers would just leave the animal if they botched it waiting for it to die. In terms of numbers there weren't many but even one made me absolutely sick. You can't even imagine the pain or the emotional trauma to other animals standing there who probably know it's going be them next.

Then there are tortured dogs. Some psychos would use barb wire to stop a dog from barking.

It's not a moral issue for me because these things will never stop, they can be reduced but it will never stop. Other predators in the jungle tend to kill in more gruesome ways. Some humans actually enjoy killing or inflicting pain so it won't stop like other crimes. The problem is whenever I indulge in a subway sandwich, I feel like puking after I eat my first bite and it takes a lot of effort to eat it in the beginning. I always is meat in my sub because the protein counts but it's takes a couple of bites to actually start enjoying it.

If a piece of meat falls on my tray I find it difficult to eat it raw. Another guy in my group at the non-profit is not a pure vegan now. The dog who's mouth was sealed shut by a barb wire took 5 hours to fix because we wanted to avoid further damage. After that it took him 3 months to start trusting us again. He would try to run or hide anywhere he could because of trauma.

If someone one did that to a human being he would be imprisoned for life. Whoever did that actually used nails to make holes in the dogs jaw to sew it shut. Some good Samaritan heard it's cries and immediately contacted us.

Eating animals, even if they are killed humanely is now very difficult for me because of some ****s out there who deserve the worst.

[Waitwhat10]

Hi Kelei

First off all thanks for sharing your experiance you seem to have a lot of knowledge here. I have some open questions for you.

- What do you think about fruits? Are they needed or do you take your vitamins via supplements?
- What do you think/recommend for fiber intake?
- At your carb intake you are calculating with pounds, the protein intake also calculatet in pounds? So 1,5xpounds would put me way over 200gr of protein per day....

So if I take my calories while bulking (3000) that would be 360carbs (minimum) around 230-240 Protein and the rest would be fat (about 60-70gr)
If I drink and eat that amount of milk/eggs I think my fat intake would be much higher...

BTW interested to coach a natty from Switzerland?

- At your carb intake you are calculating with pounds, the protein intake also calculatet in pounds? So 1,5xpounds would put me way over 200gr of protein per day....

I think he said per lean mass.

He also said not to count protein as calories. I've been getting better results without counting protein. I did not gain much in terms of fat and the weight is increasing.

[Mark7616]

Hello guys I was having a good read of this thread as I have been doing Fierce 5 for the last 6 months, and now I have a good core strength foundation I would like to start focusing on hypertrophy.

The thing is I am a little unsure where to start. I am still cutting I have lost a lot of weight in the last 8 months 119.6kg down to my current weight of 85kg. I think I still have a little bit more to loose before I start a slow bulk.

My issue at present is knowing where to start in terms of what exercises to choose for the 3 days. If I work out 6 days a week i.e each routine twice a week should I have 2 different chest work outs or just one work out, or again just chop and change the exercises I fancy for that muscle group??

At present I am still cutting so should I aim for 40 reps per exercise and increase to 50 when I start bulking?

Sorry for all the questions but I want to make sure I start on the right foot rather than come back here moaning when its not working .

Thanks
Mark

[Alyion]

I've probably asked this about 50 times now, but does anyone at all have any suggestions for someone who has like literally zero mmc when it comes to back exercises? Every other muscle group I can hit fine, but when it comes to pulling exercises its non existent. Anything with a wide grip feels wrong or hurts my shoulders and anything with a close grip is just biceps. I used to just stick some pendlay rows and chinups or close chin grip pulldowns on leg day, but its getting too hard to do both legs and back together now - plus when i've finished legs going onto back is just plain unenjoyable.

One other solution (for p/p/l) is to put upright rows and side raises on pull day (making it rows/chins/upright rows/side raises/bicep work) but it doesn't change the fact that my back sucks and will only get worse as everything else gets better.

I've tried pretty much every cue (thumbless grip/pushing elbows down/squeezing at the top) i can think of and nothing works - i've tried going to 15-20 reps on chins and in terms of mmc I might as well have been doing bicep curls.

I've tried chest supported db rows on a bench, but as I use oly db handles they just bang into the bench, seated rows are just biceps and on tbar rows the plates bang into my chest before a full rom.

I could just stick with the aforementioned pull day I posted above and hope getting stronger will help, but I sandbag the entire workout due to how unenjoyable it is.

Seriously at the end of my tether here guys

[sonnydfrizzy]

Alyion

Pick a really light weight and row by retracting the scapula. Don't even let your humerus glide that much; go on a cable row machine and retract the shoulder blades and then tug your elbows to the wall behind you.

Do this for a while and feel the protraction and retraction of the scapula and it will click srs.

Pretend like you have a walnut between your shoulder blades and you have to crack it with the scaps.

[ddosh]

I've probably asked this about 50 times now, but does anyone at all have any suggestions for someone who has like literally zero mmc when it comes to back exercises? Every other muscle group I can hit fine, but when it comes to pulling exercises its non existent. Anything with a wide grip feels wrong or hurts my shoulders and anything with a close grip is just biceps. I used to just stick some pendlay rows and chinups or close chin grip pulldowns on leg day, but its getting too hard to do both legs and back together now - plus when i've finished legs going onto back is just plain unenjoyable.

One other solution (for p/p/l) is to put upright rows and side raises on pull day (making it rows/chins/upright rows/side raises/bicep work) but it doesn't change the fact that my back sucks and will only get worse as everything else gets better.

I've tried pretty much every cue (thumbless grip/pushing elbows down/squeezing at the top) i can think of and nothing works - i've tried going to 15-20 reps on chins and in terms of mmc I might as well have been doing bicep curls.

I've tried chest supported db rows on a bench, but as I use oly db handles they just bang into the bench, seated rows are just biceps and on tbar rows the plates bang into my chest before a full rom.

I could just stick with the aforementioned pull day I posted above and hope getting stronger will help, but I sandbag the entire workout due to how unenjoyable it is.

Seriously at the end of my tether here guys

have you tried using straps / versagripps? that helps alot in terms of mmc and feeling the muscle...

[kush007bond]

.......................................
Regarding the natural vs enhanced debate I will tell you all my experience......

My volume is very high although it doesn't change when training naturally or with enhancement, in both cases the total number of reps per exercise remains the same, it's simply the amount of weight I lift that changes. When on cycle I might perform 100 total reps with 300 pounds, when off cycle I might perform 100 total reps with 240 pounds.

Performing 100 total reps with 300 pounds is far more demanding than performing 100 total reps with only 240 pounds, there's no need for me to reduce the total number of reps I perform for recovery purposes because the reduced amount of weight I'm lifting has already taken care of that.

And I don't voluntarily reduce the amount of weight I lift when off cycle, strength losses make it inevitable, with every passing weak I get weaker and weaker and need to keep gradually reducing my weights until my strength finally stabilizes at my natural strength limits.

I was performing 40-50 set leg workouts long before I ever touched steroids, I don't think it's necessarily true that natural lifters can't train with a lot of volume. .................................................. .

With such great knowledge and training principles that you have, I fail to understand what makes you cycle actually. I presume you're not competing or doing covers for magazine. I guess it must be your curious self, but then again that should have been satisfied by now. Also do you plan to continue with cycling throughout? It would have been great to see what a person with such solid diet/training can achieve naturally, shattering plateaus over time. You could have been one hope the misc needed :=)

[nerynery]

Bump

How much difference would you guys say there is between:

A-Do as many reps as possible with good form (basically to failure).
ex: Bench Press 10RM=100KG, 10r, 6r, 5r, 5r, 4r, 4r, 4r, 2r = 40 reps, 8 sets to Failure

vs

B-Do 4x8-12 with 15RM
ex: Bench Press 15RM = 90kg, 12r, 10r, 9r, 9r = 40 reps, only last set or maybe last 2 sets to Failure


A is way more taxing on your CNS.. but which pros and cons there is between both? How much more benefits it has over B?



I've been doing D1+D2 & D3 as U/L, 4x week at 35-40 reps, A-style.
D1+D2 takes me about 1h50 to finish, with calves, side delts and abs every day.. I workout in the morning and feel pretty destroyed the rest of the day... plus the workout is taking too long. Reducing to 30-35 reps only makes it like 20min faster, still 1h30.
Thanks

[Qxx]

With such great knowledge and training principles that you have, I fail to understand what makes you cycle actually. I presume you're not competing or doing covers for magazine. I guess it must be your curious self, but then again that should have been satisfied by now. Also do you plan to continue with cycling throughout? It would have been great to see what a person with such solid diet/training can achieve naturally, shattering plateaus over time. You could have been one hope the misc needed :=)

He reached his natural limits a long time ago and for many, the natural limit isn't enough. Even when not competing/modelling. That's the downside we, as bodybuilders, encounter. It's never enough. The natural limit isn't that high for many of us (unless truly genetically gifted), so the misc should get rid of the illusion you can truly reach a very muscular and lean body by training naturally. Can't claim the misc for being delusional though. That's what the internet and media are responsible for nowadays.

Like I said, bodybuilders are never truly satisfied. That's what makes people cycle on and on.

[Kelei]

Hi guys, you think I should cut or bulk?
And for how long?

Also recomping is one of the general preference over cutting in this thread, is it also significantly better?
What's the difference?

Thank you!

Someone with a high BF% should cut until they reach a moderate BF%, after reaching a moderate BF% they should recomp until they reach around 8% BF, from here they should slowly bulk 5-10 pounds and then recomp until they reach 8% BF again, then bulk another 5-10 pounds and recomp again etc, this allows you to gradually increase your BW without letting your BF% get out of control.

I think you should recomp until your abs are clearly visible and then slowly gain 10 pounds, then recomp at your new weight until you lean out again etc.

1 multivitamin per day


ascorbic acid 150 mg
biotin 0.25 mg
calcium pantothenate 16.3 mg
calcium phosphate 129 mg
copper sulphate 3.39 mg
dried ferrous sulphate IP 32.04 mg
magnesium oxide 60 mg,
manganese sulphate 2.03 mg
nicotinamide 100 mg
phosphorus 25.8 mg
sodium borate 0.88 mg
sodium molybdate 0.25 mg
vitamin A 10000 iu
vitamin B1 10 mg
vitamin B12 15 mcg
vitamin B2 10 mg
vitamin B6 3 mg
vitamin D3 1000 iu
vitamin E 25 mg
zinc sulphate 2.2 mg

So Iron is 32mg and zinc is 2.2 mg.

plus 1000mg vitamin C for better absorption of iron(don't know if this is bro science or not)

I'll start taking creatine


After workout I take either 1 liter of milk or eggs. Which do you think is better?

Milk has both whey and casein so most of the time I take milk, are eggs better?

Won't make much difference, why not both? I actually drink milk throughout my workouts, it's great for preventing dehydration (high water and electrolyte content) and cramps and it helps keep blood glucose levels stable which helps with concentration and energy levels. It's also beneficial to have amino acids circulating your bloodstream while you train, it helps prevent protein breakdown/oxidation, especially during long workouts.

I actually prefer pre workout meals but drinking milk throughout your workout is probably the next best thing.

Hi Kelei

First off all thanks for sharing your experiance you seem to have a lot of knowledge here. I have some open questions for you.

- What do you think about fruits? Are they needed or do you take your vitamins via supplements?
- What do you think/recommend for fiber intake?
- At your carb intake you are calculating with pounds, the protein intake also calculatet in pounds? So 1,5xpounds would put me way over 200gr of protein per day....

So if I take my calories while bulking (3000) that would be 360carbs (minimum) around 230-240 Protein and the rest would be fat (about 60-70gr)
If I drink and eat that amount of milk/eggs I think my fat intake would be much higher...

BTW interested to coach a natty from Switzerland?

I'm not a huge fan of fruit, I prefer starch rather than sugar carb sources because fructose can't replenish muscle glycogen stores, only glucose can.

Also fructose does not suppress appetite/hunger, calories from fructose are like ghost calories, the body doesn't register them, if your total calorie intake is 3000 calories but 400 of those calories come from fructose your appetite/hunger levels will feel like you've only eaten 2600 calories.

The primary reason why high sugar diets cause weight gain in the general public is not because of the calories, on paper there's no difference between 400 calories from fructose and 400 calories from glucose but in the real world it makes a huge difference.

Let's say a sedentary person requires 2000 calories to maintain their weight, if they eat 100 grams of fructose per day (very easy to do) they will feel like they're only eating 1600 calories, they will still be hungry even though on paper they're eating at maintenance, so they'll add another 400 calories from somewhere else and end up eating 2400 calories (400 from fructose), now they will finally feel satisfied because their body has finally "registered" 2000 calories. In reality they're eating 400 above maintenance and will be slowly gaining weight year after year.

It's also why fruit is frowned upon during cutting and pre contest diets, you'll already be hungry due to the lower calorie intake and your muscle glycogen stores will suffer (which interferes with your training), eating fructose does absolutely nothing for you, it doesn't help control hunger and it doesn't replenish muscle glycogen stores, it just adds useless calories, you'd be better of switching fructose calories for glucose calories, glucose will help control hunger and will help replenish muscle glyogoen stores.

I don't go out of my way to get fiber and you should only get as much as you need, soluble fiber is practically useless, insoluble fiber is the important one.

I calculate everything in pounds and in relation to lean body mass, not overall body mass. If you're 200 pounds at 10% BF that would give you 180 pounds of lean body mass.

Hello guys I was having a good read of this thread as I have been doing Fierce 5 for the last 6 months, and now I have a good core strength foundation I would like to start focusing on hypertrophy.

The thing is I am a little unsure where to start. I am still cutting I have lost a lot of weight in the last 8 months 119.6kg down to my current weight of 85kg. I think I still have a little bit more to loose before I start a slow bulk.

My issue at present is knowing where to start in terms of what exercises to choose for the 3 days. If I work out 6 days a week i.e each routine twice a week should I have 2 different chest work outs or just one work out, or again just chop and change the exercises I fancy for that muscle group??

At present I am still cutting so should I aim for 40 reps per exercise and increase to 50 when I start bulking?

Sorry for all the questions but I want to make sure I start on the right foot rather than come back here moaning when its not working .

Thanks
Mark

There's no need to switch exercises each session, it interferes with motor learning and will slow down progress. I recommend 30 reps per exercise during a cut, it's very easy to exhaust yourself with too much volume and not enough carbohydrate, especially during a cut.

I've probably asked this about 50 times now, but does anyone at all have any suggestions for someone who has like literally zero mmc when it comes to back exercises? Every other muscle group I can hit fine, but when it comes to pulling exercises its non existent. Anything with a wide grip feels wrong or hurts my shoulders and anything with a close grip is just biceps. I used to just stick some pendlay rows and chinups or close chin grip pulldowns on leg day, but its getting too hard to do both legs and back together now - plus when i've finished legs going onto back is just plain unenjoyable.

One other solution (for p/p/l) is to put upright rows and side raises on pull day (making it rows/chins/upright rows/side raises/bicep work) but it doesn't change the fact that my back sucks and will only get worse as everything else gets better.

I've tried pretty much every cue (thumbless grip/pushing elbows down/squeezing at the top) i can think of and nothing works - i've tried going to 15-20 reps on chins and in terms of mmc I might as well have been doing bicep curls.

I've tried chest supported db rows on a bench, but as I use oly db handles they just bang into the bench, seated rows are just biceps and on tbar rows the plates bang into my chest before a full rom.

I could just stick with the aforementioned pull day I posted above and hope getting stronger will help, but I sandbag the entire workout due to how unenjoyable it is.

Seriously at the end of my tether here guys

Have you tried straight arm pulldowns?

http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/...mPulldown.html

With such great knowledge and training principles that you have, I fail to understand what makes you cycle actually. I presume you're not competing or doing covers for magazine. I guess it must be your curious self, but then again that should have been satisfied by now. Also do you plan to continue with cycling throughout? It would have been great to see what a person with such solid diet/training can achieve naturally, shattering plateaus over time. You could have been one hope the misc needed :=)

My days of enhanced training are almost done, my priorities are changing and I can definitely see myself training 100% naturally from next year, I think I'll make it my New Year's resolution.

How much difference would you guys say there is between:

A-Do as many reps as possible with good form (basically to failure).
ex: Bench Press 10RM=100KG, 10r, 6r, 5r, 5r, 4r, 4r, 4r, 2r = 40 reps, 8 sets to Failure

vs

B-Do 4x8-12 with 15RM
ex: Bench Press 15RM = 90kg, 12r, 10r, 9r, 9r = 40 reps, only last set or maybe last 2 sets to Failure


A is way more taxing on your CNS.. but which pros and cons there is between both? How much more benefits it has over B?



I've been doing D1+D2 & D3 as U/L, 4x week at 35-40 reps, A-style.
D1+D2 takes me about 1h50 to finish, with calves, side delts and abs every day.. I workout in the morning and feel pretty destroyed the rest of the day... plus the workout is taking too long. Reducing to 30-35 reps only makes it like 20min faster, still 1h30.
Thanks

Not much difference, straight sets are fine but I recommend taking each set close to failure otherwise your training efficiency will decrease and you'll need to perform more volume in order to compensate for it. There's nothing wrong with 3 sets to failure, 2 minutes rest between sets, your workouts will be shorter but still highly efficient.

[ddosh]

Hi Kelei

Thanks for your huge reply

1.) How much fiber do you recommend per Pound body weight? And from what sources do you get enough insoluble fiber?
2.) So you get your vitamins all from Supplements?
3.) Whats your general tough about supplements (whey, maltodextrin after workout)
4.) Do you always recommend full% Milk (like 3.5% Fat per 100ml) or would 1.5% or even 0.1% also be good to not overshoot with the fats?
5.) When you speak about eggs, you always mean full eggs?

Thanks

[Alyion]

One other question for Kelei (and anyone else who can chime in) - what is your opinion of muscle Fascia stretching? Routines such as DC and fst-7 incorporate it, and i've pretty much paid no attention to it, but it would be good to get some other opinions on the matter.

For those who don't know what I mean: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=586655 goes into some basic ideas.

[LazyBastard]

Kelei, what do you recommend carb-wise around workouts? I usually work out immediately when I get home from work as I have a small window between work and picking up the kids.
I usually use powdered gatorade, but that may be sub-par according to your above post. I prefer something I can drink since I often don't have time to prepare and eat a solid meal before my workouts, though I suppose I could have a prepared snack to eat in the car. I also don't see myself enjoying drinking milk during a workout since that would be pretty filling. Any suggestions?

[jdl22]

Super easy to follow and informative post -- thanks for the share. I've been interested in starting up a hypertrophy program once I get back into school and think I'll give your Day 1,2,3 a look-over and see how it fits my schedule and training preferences.

Thanks a ton!

[Adrenaline16]

Can someone critique the fuk outta my workout routine?

I do 3 sets for every exercise aiming for 12 reps on everything. Once I'm able to reach 12 reps or I feel like I can go heavier I bump the weight up a couple pounds. I do abs at the end of every workout.

The slashes indicate exercises that I alternate each cycle as I do this routine twice a week.

D1- CHEST TRI'S - flat bench, incline bench/incline db press, shoulder press, decline bench/decline db press, db flyes/machine flyes, front raise, rope pulldown, supinated pulldown, standing calf raise

D2- BACK BI'S - Wide grip lat pulldown, db/barbell row, t bar row, seated row, lateral raises, rear delt flyes, db/barbell shrug, barbell curl/preacher curl, db curl, rotator cuff movement (I have bad rotator cuffs)

D3- LEGS - Back Squat, Deadlift 5x5, Leg Press, Leg extension, leg curls, seated calf raises

[SXElifter]

Can someone critique the fuk outta my workout routine?

I do 3 sets for every exercise aiming for 12 reps on everything. Once I'm able to reach 12 reps or I feel like I can go heavier I bump the weight up a couple pounds. I do abs at the end of every workout.

The slashes indicate exercises that I alternate each cycle as I do this routine twice a week.

D1- CHEST TRI'S - flat bench, incline bench/incline db press, shoulder press, decline bench/decline db press, db flyes/machine flyes, front raise, rope pulldown, supinated pulldown, standing calf raise

D2- BACK BI'S - Wide grip lat pulldown, db/barbell row, t bar row, seated row, lateral raises, rear delt flyes, db/barbell shrug, barbell curl/preacher curl, db curl, rotator cuff movement (I have bad rotator cuffs)

D3- LEGS - Back Squat, Deadlift 5x5, Leg Press, Leg extension, leg curls, seated calf raises

Alternating exercises like that is not ideal; it interferes with motor unit learning and thus recruitment. It is better to stick with select exercises and allocate your time towards those. Doing so will result in faster strength increases (and superior hypertrophy).

D1:
1. Decide on either incline barbell bench press or incline dumbbell press.
2. Eliminate the front raises.
3. Eliminate the supinated pulldown (I'm assuming this means a supinated tricep pressdown). Allocate this volume towards rope pressdowns. Tricep work should be done with either a pronated or neutral grip.
4. Eliminate the decline bench press/decline db press. Allocate this volume towards flat bench press and incline press.
5. You likely don't need a shoulder press. Kelei has spoken about this on many occasions; your front delts already get more than enough work from all of the bench pressing you'll be doing, and extra front delt work will only further exacerbate muscular imbalances. Lateral raises will do the job just fine. You can perform lateral raises on D1 as well (even on D3 too if you want).

D2:
1. You don't really need all these different rows. You're better off allocating your volume tolerance (as in, performing more volume) towards one or two rowing exercises. You can have two rowing exercises, but one should be with elbows tucked and one should be with elbows flared. Anything else would be redundant (in which case, again, you'd make better progress performing select exercises). You could perform a seated cable row (elbows tucked) and a t-bar row or barbell row with elbows flared.

Can't see much wrong with D3.

[camenskill247]

Ugh I got a headache trying to read this.

So we are only doing one bicep excersise and one tricep? And we only get one day off a week? I mean that's fine. Just wanting to know... Will be starting tomorrow.

Or can u do d1 and d2 on same day? Ect...

[ddosh]

Kelei

You said earlier you should cut until you are lean, and then recomp until you reach 8%BF. What is a good point to start recomping and leaning out to 8% BF?
Don't you think it takes too much time (as a natural) to recomp to 8% and wouldn't it be better to cut down to that BF level?

- On what ratio do you recommend cutting? I mean, how much weight loss per week / what calorie deficit.
- On your recomp macros, do you eat the same calories everyday or do you vary from working days and off days?

[sonnydfrizzy]

Ugh I got a headache trying to read this.

So we are only doing one bicep excersise and one tricep? And we only get one day off a week? I mean that's fine. Just wanting to know... Will be starting tomorrow.

Or can u do d1 and d2 on same day? Ect...

Lmao bro you srs? If that is the mindset you have, you arent gonna make it.

Just read it and do what it says brah. Ain't that hard. Or complain your whole life and play victim.

[camenskill247]

Lmao bro you srs? If that is the mindset you have, you arent gonna make it.

Just read it and do what it says brah. Ain't that hard. Or complain your whole life and play victim.

I'm confused as to if we are suppose to combine or what. Like d1 plus d2.

Or do u do like

Monday
Tuesday
Wednesday
Thursday REST
Friday
Sat
Sunday
or what. I can't really grasp this program

[Effrum]

I'm confused as to if we are suppose to combine or what. Like d1 plus d2.

Or do u do like

Monday
Tuesday
Wednesday
Thursday REST
Friday
Sat
Sunday
or what. I can't really grasp this program

It's listed as Day 1, Day 2, Day 3 - so no, assuming you can get in the gym 5+ days a week you don't combine them. Just follow what's in the OP and you'll be good.

[FiteMeIrlFgt]

Okay sorry guys but I've been reading this thread for awhile. I understand how D1, D2 and D3 work but I still get confused when figuring out how many sets and reps I should be performing per exercise. Can someone help me out on that?

Also I'm currently trying to fix my imbalances; I worked chest too much last year so now I'm sort of hunched. Recently I cut out chest and added more volume for my back and rear delts to help the issue. Also my triceps and medial delts are my lagging body part, how can I modify this routine to aid my needs?

[Effrum]

Okay sorry guys but I've been reading this thread for awhile. I understand how D1, D2 and D3 work but I still get confused when figuring out how many sets and reps I should be performing per exercise. Can someone help me out on that?

Also I'm currently trying to fix my imbalances; I worked chest too much last year so now I'm sort of hunched. Recently I cut out chest and added more volume for my back and rear delts to help the issue. Also my triceps and medial delts are my lagging body part, how can I modify this routine to aid my needs?

Honestly? Don't modify it at all, at least not yet. The routine as laid out in the OP is very balanced, and lagging/weaker muscles will develop much faster than your more used/advanced ones. So your weaknesses will correct themselves if you just give the routine some time to do its job.

As far as volume, you're better off starting with less volume and then adding more as you feel you can do it. For example, start out doing 30 reps RP on each exercise and see how you feel after 3 weeks and a deload. If you're able to do 30 reps on each exercise with no issue, and you didn't really feel any different before/after your deload - then you could bump up to 40 and try again. Just play it by feel.

[Jasonk282]

Okay sorry guys but I've been reading this thread for awhile. I understand how D1, D2 and D3 work but I still get confused when figuring out how many sets and reps I should be performing per exercise. Can someone help me out on that?

Also I'm currently trying to fix my imbalances; I worked chest too much last year so now I'm sort of hunched. Recently I cut out chest and added more volume for my back and rear delts to help the issue. Also my triceps and medial delts are my lagging body part, how can I modify this routine to aid my needs?

Just do more rowing than pressing. Cutting out chest is pretty stupid, IMO.

Also how are your triceps lagging if you worked chest out that much as you say?

Start with 30 reps like Effrum suggest and follw his advise.