Hypertrophy/Bodybuilding Routine

[Effrum]

Frequency > Volume then (for the most part)?

Yeah, basically. Like Kelei said as you get more advanced you'll need more per-session volume in order to stimulate muscle growth and adaptation, so you can't just do like 2 sets 7 times a week and expect to progress to the advanced level. But on the same token, only training once per week will leave you open to detrain in between sessions.

[GeraltOfRivia5]

Frequency > Volume then (for the most part)?

Yeah it would be interesting to know where the line gets drawn (when is more frequency not better anymore)? From my understanding a 2x frequency is a lot better than 1x frequency, but 3x frequency is not necessarily better than 2x because volume per session gets lower (as in P/P/L x 3 vs Upper/Lower x 2) and people seem to get more problem with joints etc, as frequency gets higher and higher.

Kelei if you had 5 days to train (mon-friday) but you wouldn't be able to train at weekends, would Upper/Lower x5 be better than P/P/L x 5? Assuming total volume is about the same. Would it make any difference at all? Frequency difference would be about ~1.7x (P/P/L) per week vs 2.5x per week (Upper/Lower) if my math is correct.

[Yeahbrah333]

Yeah, basically. Like Kelei said as you get more advanced you'll need more per-session volume in order to stimulate muscle growth and adaptation, so you can't just do like 2 sets 7 times a week and expect to progress to the advanced level. But on the same token, only training once per week will leave you open to detrain in between sessions.

but the difference between 2x and more is irrelevant or ?

[Kelei]

Frequency > Volume then (for the most part)?

Weekly volume is the most important variable, 20 sets per week is always going to be better than 10 sets per week no matter what's going on regarding frequency. That being said, frequency still matters, 10 sets twice per week is better than 20 sets once per week even though the weekly volume is the same.

Thanks, K. How about the reverse cable flies? ALso shoulder height with the handles coming down slightly to pec level at the end of the pull? And do you do a crossover with the cables set far apart from one another or do you set them close to each other and do a normal reverse fly?

Thanks again.

There should be no vertical movement of the hands, motion should be perfectly horizontal, this applies to both standard and reverse flyes. For reverse flyes set the cables close to each other so that it stresses the fully contracted position to a greater extent.

[Kelei]

Yeah, basically. Like Kelei said as you get more advanced you'll need more per-session volume in order to stimulate muscle growth and adaptation, so you can't just do like 2 sets 7 times a week and expect to progress to the advanced level. But on the same token, only training once per week will leave you open to detrain in between sessions.

Yeah it would be interesting to know where the line gets drawn (when is more frequency not better anymore)? From my understanding a 2x frequency is a lot better than 1x frequency, but 3x frequency is not necessarily better than 2x because volume per session gets lower (as in P/P/L x 3 vs Upper/Lower x 2) and people seem to get more problem with joints etc, as frequency gets higher and higher.

Kelei if you had 5 days to train (mon-friday) but you wouldn't be able to train at weekends, would Upper/Lower x5 be better than P/P/L x 5? Assuming total volume is about the same. Would it make any difference at all? Frequency difference would be about ~1.7x (P/P/L) per week vs 2.5x per week (Upper/Lower) if my math is correct.

but the difference between 2x and more is irrelevant or ?

Train each muscle twice per week and keep increasing your volume as you become more advanced, that's really all there is to it.

For example:

Beginner = 10 sets per workout, 20 sets per week
Intermediate = 15 sets per workout, 30 sets per week
Advanced = 20 sets per workout, 40 sets per week
Elite = 25 sets per workout, 50 sets per week

As you become more advanced you require more weekly volume and you also require more session volume, using the above approach will meet both requirements.

[CrayJay]

Train each muscle twice per week and keep increasing your volume as you become more advanced, that's really all there is to it.

For example:

Beginner = 10 sets per workout, 20 sets per week
Intermediate = 15 sets per workout, 30 sets per week
Advanced = 20 sets per workout, 40 sets per week
Elite = 25 sets per workout, 50 sets per week

As you become more advanced you require more weekly volume and you also require more session volume, using the above approach will meet both requirements.

In this particular context, are the values for the number of sets per workout per muscle group? Likewise, how many reps constitutes one set?

[Kelei]

In this particular context, are the values for the number of sets per workout per muscle group? Likewise, how many reps constitutes one set?

There is no context, it was just for the sake of example to convey the underlying principle. Train each muscle twice per week and gradually increase your volume as you become more advanced.

[ThatOneLurker]

I have another loading/deloading technique I don't think I've ever mentioned here, it still involves a 3/1 cycle but not by weeks, by split rotations instead, for example you cycle through your split 3 times at usual volume and during the 4th cycle you only perform your first set of each exercise.

So for example,

Monday-D1
Tues-D2
Wed-D3
Thurs-D4 --> 1st set of each exercise

Am I understanding it correctly?

[xxx_jfb_xxx]

Weekly volume is the most important variable, 20 sets per week is always going to be better than 10 sets per week no matter what's going on regarding frequency. That being said, frequency still matters, 10 sets twice per week is better than 20 sets once per week even though the weekly volume is the same.

Gotcha. That answers my question. Thanks Kelei.

[GeraltOfRivia5]

There is no context, it was just for the sake of example to convey the underlying principle. Train each muscle twice per week and gradually increase your volume as you become more advanced.

What kind of frequency would you prefer if you trained an "uneven" amount of days, say 3 or 5 days per week, that would either put you under or over a 2x frequency? Is it better to be over than under, if the total weekly volume is the same?

3 days per week = ? Do full body?

5 days per week = ? Do Upper/Lower? (P/P/L would be lower than 2x frequency)

Thanks again, really appreciate the answers!

[CrayJay]

So for example,

Monday-D1
Tues-D2
Wed-D3
Thurs-D4 --> 1st set of each exercise

Am I understanding it correctly?

Not quite, you would perform D1 D2 D3 D1 D2 D3 D1 D2 D3 and then the next cycle (of D1 D2 D3) would be performed in a single set fashion.

[xxx_jfb_xxx]

I had been doing 50 reps of push/pull/legs/upper body.. I think I'm going to tone it down to 30 reps push/pull/legs/push/pull/legs/rest and see how I feel. I really love the 50 rep volume in one day, but it is very taxing, which is why I can only get in the gym 4 times.

We'll try it for a week and report back.

[64509chvl]

What? 39 is middle-aged????? So I'm almost there? Fak me!

Going by fast buddy, live it up! Our baby girl (2nd child) is due the 24th...she's gonna keep me/us young for a while !

[Kelei]

What kind of frequency would you prefer if you trained an "uneven" amount of days, say 3 or 5 days per week, that would either put you under or over a 2x frequency? Is it better to be over than under, if the total weekly volume is the same?

3 days per week = ? Do full body?

5 days per week = ? Do Upper/Lower? (P/P/L would be lower than 2x frequency)

Thanks again, really appreciate the answers!

D1 - Upper
D2 - Lower
D3 - Rest
D4 - Upper
D5 - Lower
D6 - Rest
D7 - Rest

Not quite, you would perform D1 D2 D3 D1 D2 D3 D1 D2 D3 and then the next cycle (of D1 D2 D3) would be performed in a single set fashion.

That's correct, 3 cycles loading, 1 cycle deloading, repeat.

[thors5]

Shoulder/RC health is more closely related to internal and external rotation, tight/short internal rotators (pecs and lats) and weak external rotators will set you up for shoulder problems.

In order to maintain shoulder health it's absolutely essential that you regularly stretch your pecs and lats and I recommend that anyone with a history of shoulder problems (or anyone who wants to be extra cautious) should add some direct external rotation work (at both 0 and 90 degrees shoulder abduction angles).

Kelei I'm working on overcoming a nagging shoulder injury on my left side right now. Seems like you know exactly what is going on. Could you give some examples of direct external rotation work? And what do you mean by 0 and 90 degrees shoulder abduction angles? I've been doing face pulls on my pull day for 30 reps like everything else. Should I consider doing more reps for face pulls or adding in other external rotation exercises? Been doing my face pulls like this btw: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSoHeSjvIdY is that a good form to use? Thanks Kelei!!!

[Kelei]

Kelei I'm working on overcoming a nagging shoulder injury on my left side right now. Seems like you know exactly what is going on. Could you give some examples of direct external rotation work? And what do you mean by 0 and 90 degrees shoulder abduction angles? I've been doing face pulls on my pull day for 30 reps like everything else. Should I consider doing more reps for face pulls or adding in other external rotation exercises? Been doing my face pulls like this btw: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSoHeSjvIdY is that a good form to use? Thanks Kelei!!!

Face pulls are great, they train the external rotators at a 90 degree abduction angle, they also train the rhomboids, mid/lower traps, rear delts and even the side delts (the side delts are quite active during transverse abduction when the shoulder is externally rotated).

A good exercise to pair with face pulls is external rotations performed at a 0 degree abduction angle, for example:



It can be performed with a resistance band, a cable attachment or even a dumbbell (lying on your side):

[kush007bond]

Kelei in this thread the guy claims training his shoulder/arms daily lead to huge gains. What's your opinion on this? ( he has years of training exp too so not noob gains)
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=162375251


his routine:
***
take a weight that you can fail at 20 reps. Do 12 reps, stop, rest for 30-40 seconds and continue with 12 reps. you will see how hard it will be to get to 12 reps in your following sets. You only need one exercise.

Day 1: Chest + 10-12 sets lateral raise, 10-12 sets preacher curl, 10-12 sets dumbbell tricep press aka close grip bench press
Day 2: Legs + same as Day 1
Day 3: Back + Same as Day 1
Rest or repeat

****

[atgbrahsrs]

Kelei in this thread the guy claims training his shoulder/arms daily lead to huge gains. What's your opinion on this? ( he has years of training exp too so not noob gains)

I think that dude posted in the teen section later that he now thinks frequency is less important if I can recall correctly.\


By the way, if you go a few pages back of this thread you will find him posting in this thread. I think he is a follower of the routine :P Please stop overthinking this and do this routine.

[GeraltOfRivia5]

That's correct, 3 cycles loading, 1 cycle deloading, repeat.

When would this way of doing load/deload be better than the normal 3 WEEKS load 1 WEEK deload? Or would you say they work just as good and its just a matter of personal preference?

[kush007bond]

I think that dude posted in the teen section later that he now thinks frequency is less important if I can recall correctly.\


By the way, if you go a few pages back of this thread you will find him posting in this thread. I think he is a follower of the routine :P Please stop overthinking this and do this routine.

Lol nah mate not over-thinking, am already on this routine since this monday. Feeling soreness all-over, a little extra work never hurt anyone

[xxx_jfb_xxx]

I think you could hit the smaller muscle groups more often like biceps, triceps, shoulders if you really wanted to... that's just my personal opinion...

[Kelei]

Kelei in this thread the guy claims training his shoulder/arms daily lead to huge gains. What's your opinion on this? ( he has years of training exp too so not noob gains)
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=162375251


his routine:
***
take a weight that you can fail at 20 reps. Do 12 reps, stop, rest for 30-40 seconds and continue with 12 reps. you will see how hard it will be to get to 12 reps in your following sets. You only need one exercise.

Day 1: Chest + 10-12 sets lateral raise, 10-12 sets preacher curl, 10-12 sets dumbbell tricep press aka close grip bench press
Day 2: Legs + same as Day 1
Day 3: Back + Same as Day 1
Rest or repeat

****

Training lagging muscle groups every time you're in the gym is a great technique, assuming the volume isn't totally crazy there's no reason why you couldn't train your arms every day. It's not really something you can do for your entire body though, the systematic demand is too great, it's something you reserve for a select few muscles at any one time.

Some muscles inherently respond exceptionally well to high frequency training, it's why I recommend training the side delts, calves and abs daily.

When would this way of doing load/deload be better than the normal 3 WEEKS load 1 WEEK deload? Or would you say they work just as good and its just a matter of personal preference?

Go with what you prefer.

[kush007bond]

Training lagging muscle groups every time you're in the gym is a great technique, assuming the volume isn't totally crazy there's no reason why you couldn't train your arms every day. It's not really something you can do for your entire body though, the systematic demand is too great, it's something you reserve for a select few muscles at any one time.

Some muscles inherently respond exceptionally well to high frequency training, it's why I recommend training the side delts, calves and abs daily.

Go with what you prefer.

Great! that's really helpful!

Now, onto traps , any useful tips to make them hugeee?

[Davis1891]

Hey Kelei (Or anyone else), I remember reading another post of yours (his) a while back about the different levels of weight lifting. (Beginner/Intermediate/Experienced) and how it relates to the amount of weight being used. So I guess technically, considering that my lift's aren't very high, I'd still be considered a beginner. (I've been lifting, inefficiently mind you, for about two years now, generally on a cut as I was grossly overweight.)
I'm just about to start a bulk here, and I'm wondering if Kelei's A/B fullbody split would be recommended, or would the P/P/L be more beneficial? I understand that it's mostly subjective to opinion, but I do remember him saying at one point in one of his other threads that a P/P/L is mostly suited for people who are experienced lifters at over 5+ years, and how beginners should be focusing on the fullbody workouts, due to frequency, so the reason I'm asking is because I wanted to know if this is still believed to be optimal?
I can dedicate 5-6 days per week no problem.
Thanks!

[Effrum]

Hey Kelei (Or anyone else), I remember reading another post of yours (his) a while back about the different levels of weight lifting. (Beginner/Intermediate/Experienced) and how it relates to the amount of weight being used. So I guess technically, considering that my lift's aren't very high, I'd still be considered a beginner. (I've been lifting, inefficiently mind you, for about two years now, generally on a cut as I was grossly overweight.)
I'm just about to start a bulk here, and I'm wondering if Kelei's A/B fullbody split would be recommended, or would the P/P/L be more beneficial? I understand that it's mostly subjective to opinion, but I do remember him saying at one point in one of his other threads that a P/P/L is mostly suited for people who are experienced lifters at over 5+ years, and how beginners should be focusing on the fullbody workouts, due to frequency, so the reason I'm asking is because I wanted to know if this is still believed to be optimal?
I can dedicate 5-6 days per week no problem.
Thanks!

Yes, doing fullbody or higher frequency routines is still optimal for beginners. That being said, you can still progress just fine on a P/P/L (but not as quick as someone doing higher frequency). It's not going to make or break you. The most important thing is being consistent with whatever you do. Do what will keep you lifting in the long run.

[Alyion]

Questions

---------This is all my personal opinion--------

It is mostly personal preference, but for the beginner (and I suppose early-mid intermediate) the main goal is simply to increase your 10rm. Volume is performed merely as a means to help promote this strength gain (as opposed to someone more advanced with extremely slow strength progression where volume helps with hypertrophy as much/eventually more as sheer weight on the bar does). Going off this, you would be better served running a full body routine with a few basic lifts (1 for each muscle group) and as much volume as time allows. As you get stronger you can then branch out into higher volume/less frequency (such as upper/lower or push/pull) before eventually hitting the main p/p/l split.

tldr -Full body with a total focus on strength gain (5/6 a week) - beginner (easy gains in strength)
-A/B split with an equal mix of strength/volume - early/mid intermediate (average gains in strength, no real need to do anything fancy just stay the course)
-P/P/L with an equal mix of strength/volume - mid intermediate/early advanced (slower/hard gains in strength - same as above but slower still)
-P/P/L with more of a focus on volume over strength - Advanced (strength gains very slow- adding even a single rep takes an age - increases in volume a better option)

[Yeahbrah333]

tldr -Full body with a total focus on strength gain (5/6 a week) - beginner (easy gains in strength)
-A/B split with an equal mix of strength/volume - early/mid intermediate (average gains in strength, no real need to do anything fancy just stay the course)
-P/P/L with an equal mix of strength/volume - mid intermediate/early advanced (slower/hard gains in strength - same as above but slower still)
-P/P/L with more of a focus on volume over strength - Advanced (strength gains very slow- adding even a single rep takes an age - increases in volume a better option)

aaand by this you dont mean non-linear period right ?

[Yeahbrah333]

.

btw, out of curiosity, why isn't there any trap work in the split

[DamonX]

Kelei thank you for your response on arm growth. I'm jus gonna keep at it, I've been progressing so far with the new additions I've made.

For above poster^
It's not written in stone.. it's basically an effective template which you could build upon and adjust toward your own aesthetic goals.

Eg 50 reps for side delts..

I do 6 sets 8-15 reps

[Alyion]

aaand by this you dont mean non-linear period right ?

Well it depends on how you look at it - (if you are talking about strength gains that is) it will certainly seem non-linear, but you could argue every single time you lift you are actually getting 'stronger' - even for those at an advanced level. Provided the stimulus (over the long term) eventually increases above its previous there has to be an adaptation of some description I suppose - so while it may be frustrating lifting the same weight for weeks (and even months) as long as you are increasing the workload above your comfort level its only right to assume there will be a compensation effect.