Hypertrophy/Bodybuilding Routine

[ThatOneLurker]

Been running ICF 5x5 for the past couple of months but what I'm really looking for is hypertrophy and not pure strength per-say since the core lifts on ICF 5x5 are at a 5x5 rep-set range as opposed to a more hypertrophic 8-12 rep range. Was thinking of switching to something like this. What do you guys think?

You won't look back.

I'm completely new to the routine (and to the forum in general) but it looks awesome and the first 2 days felt *incredibly* intense. I appologize in advance if my question turns out to be redundant.
My intention is to replace my previous 5 day split with this one, but I was wondering about the actual volume used in this split compared to what I did in the 5 day routine.
A D1, for example, looks like this:

Bench press 4*12
Incline dumbbell press 4*12
seated military press 4*12
dumbell side raise 4*12
rope pressdown 4*10
skullcrusher single dumbell 4*8
cable crossovers 4*12 > dropset

Is the volume based on what you can handle, or is it better to start off with less volume and maybe add more gradually? I will admit I sorta tried to just put all the stuff from the 5 day split as much as I could in this one.
Perhaps the most import reason why I ask is because the D1 and D2 have been significantly more "draining" than a regular day in my previous split. I can imagine it will take some time to get used to, but could also see myself simply getting a little bit in over my head.

If you want to ease into the volume you can. It's based off of what you can tolerate.

[nerynery]

This may seem weird to some of you, but Im really happy with my hamstrings, that I don't want them to grow anymore, maybe 1" more at max.

I do care about and want to improve my quads though, both in size and definition. Having said that, I don't want to create an imbalance. I know that by adding Leg Press to my squats and leg extensions, I would also have to add something like hyperextensions to my rdls and leg curls.. Which I don't want.
Plus, having squats, rdls and hyperextensions would definitely increase my waist size/thickness, that I also dont want.. Not sure what to do here, any ideas?

Im 9-10% bf 160lbs atm and will start slowly bulking soon, 23" thighs, 30" waist, doing 10x240 rdls for a couple months already.

[ThatOneLurker]

This may seem weird to some of you, but Im really happy with my hamstrings, that I don't want them to grow anymore, maybe 1" more at max.

I do care about and want to improve my quads though, both in size and definition. Having said that, I don't want to create an imbalance. I know that by adding Leg Press to my squats and leg extensions, I would also have to add something like hyperextensions to my rdls and leg curls.. Which I don't want.
Plus, having squats, rdls and hyperextensions would definitely increase my waist size/thickness, that I also dont want.. Not sure what to do here, any ideas?

Im 9-10% bf 160lbs atm and will start slowly bulking soon, 23" thighs, 30" waist, doing 10x240 rdls for a couple months already.

Then increase your RDL and leg curl volume to where you don't need to add another hamstring exercise

for example:

squats - 30 reps
leg extensions - 30 reps
leg press - 30 reps

total reps - 90 reps

RDL - 45 reps
leg curls - 45 reps

total reps - 90 reps

[DumbbellDude]

You won't look back.




If you want to ease into the volume you can. It's based off of what you can tolerate.

Thank you very much! I adjusted the second cycle of the week to 3 sets of 10-12 instead of 4 sets, to lower the load but keep my favorite excercises and see how that will feel.

[ThatOneLurker]

Thank you very much! I adjusted the second cycle of the week to 3 sets of 10-12 instead of 4 sets, to lower the load but keep my favorite excercises and see how that will feel.

Yeah don't stress the volume. Your work capacity will eventually catch up if you take your deloads as prescribed.

[DumbbellDude]

Yeah don't stress the volume. Your work capacity will eventually catch up if you take your deloads as prescribed.

Call me a wimp, but I just finished my 3rd session and can already understand why a deload after 3 weeks is mandatory, while before I was bummed out if I had to take a forced deload after 8. (due to injuries or whatnot)
Have high confidence in terms of gains!

[Effrum]

Call me a wimp, but I just finished my 3rd session and can already understand why a deload after 3 weeks is mandatory, while before I was bummed out if I had to take a forced deload after 8. (due to injuries or whatnot)
Have high confidence in terms of gains!

Haha, well, for most people the increase and volume and the switch to Rest-Pause (assuming you use that, which I prefer) takes some adjusting no matter what. The 1st week is always the worst, you'll feel better next week. But yeah, deloading after 3 weeks is definitely needed, and I always look forward to it lol.

[hexify]

D2: Pull ups
Lat pulldowns
Chest supported rows
seated rows
concentration curls
Rear delt flyes or hammer strength rows



These are my personal preferences.

Why do you do pull ups if you're doing lat pulldowns?
And Kelei recently said it could be good adding in side delt raises more then 2x/week with ppl. Do you agree with this?

[BigGunz4evrybdy]

Does anybody implement any kind of periodization into this routine? i'm currently a big fan of the philosophy and principles of this program (volume in focus), just trying to optimize in any way possible..

[ThatOneLurker]

Why do you do pull ups if you're doing lat pulldowns?
And Kelei recently said it could be good adding in side delt raises more then 2x/week with ppl. Do you agree with this?

I have a wrist injury that prevents me from doing anything supinated at the moment.

3 years ago I was doing side delts with a huge amount of volume since then my shoulder cap has been one of my best bodyparts. I don't need to train side delts more than twice a week.

[CrayJay]

Does anybody implement any kind of periodization into this routine? i'm currently a big fan of the philosophy and principles of this program (volume in focus), just trying to optimize in any way possible..

There is actually periodization already built-in: one is advised to deload every 4th week.

[Jasonk282]

Why do you do pull ups if you're doing lat pulldowns?
And Kelei recently said it could be good adding in side delt raises more then 2x/week with ppl. Do you agree with this?

I've never directly training them...ever.

[BigGunz4evrybdy]

There is actually periodization already built-in: one is advised to deload every 4th week.

yes, that is correct, i was thinking about non linear periodization in particular like layne norton explains it, variations in reps/wheigt to aim for hypertrophy, power and strength for optimal results?
just curious

[Jasonk282]

yes, that is correct, i was thinking about non linear periodization in particular like layne norton explains it, variations in reps/wheigt to aim for hypertrophy, power and strength for optimal results?
just curious

That's more strength orientated than bodybuilding

[BigGunz4evrybdy]

That's more strength orientated than bodybuilding

no it is not.. You can't optimize one without the other, less strength --> less volume --> less hypertrophy ,

[CrayJay]

no it is not.. You can't optimize one without the other, less strength --> less volume --> less hypertrophy ,

Volume is really a function of your work capacity and available time to commit to training, more specifically the lesser of the two will serve as the limiting factor. Regarding strength however, it's misleading to believe that training in the 8-12 rep zone is not addressing such: it is merely optimizing your strength in that rep range which is the outcome we seek.

[ThatOneLurker]

yes, that is correct, i was thinking about non linear periodization in particular like layne norton explains it, variations in reps/wheigt to aim for hypertrophy, power and strength for optimal results?
just curious

Non-linear periodization is a waste of time.


Muscles and the CNS adapt specifically to the training that they're subjected to. For example, to increase your 10RM why would you use your 5RM? You'd be building a 5RM in the process when you could be specifically addressing your 10RM. You cannot store a 5RM, 10RM and 15RM adaptation and switch between them at will.

[BigGunz4evrybdy]

Volume is really a function of your work capacity and available time to commit to training, more specifically the lesser of the two will serve as the limiting factor. Regarding strength however, it's misleading to believe that training in the 8-12 rep zone is not addressing such: it is merely optimizing your strength in that rep range which is the outcome we seek.

yea volume is a function of the two, but work capacity is dictated by strength... and ofc strength will be increased when you are lifting in general, just not optimally, i think science is pretty clear about total strength being optimally increased lifting in lower rep ranges, hence, total strength --> greater work capacity --> more volume --> optimal hypertrophy (is this interpretation completely wrong?)

[BigGunz4evrybdy]

Non-linear periodization is a waste of time.

I dunno really, thats why i ask, haven't incooperated the principles in my training, just looking for all the edges i can get.. isn't it cool from a mental standpoint as well, more variation in the program and thereby keeping it fresh?

[CrayJay]

yea volume is a function of the two, but work capacity is dictated by strength... and ofc strength will be increased when you are lifting in general, just not optimally, i think science is pretty clear about total strength being optimally increased lifting in lower rep ranges, hence, total strength --> greater work capacity --> more volume --> optimal hypertrophy (is this interpretation completely wrong?)

Work capacity is more so a function of conditioning. I think you are looking at strength through a narrow lens by just viewing it in a low rep range. You are right about more volume equating to optimal hypertrophy, and about greater work capacity allowing greater volume, the problem is the "total strength" component. Substitute that with "10RM strength" and the logic is pretty sound in my opinion.

[BigGunz4evrybdy]

Work capacity is more so a function of conditioning. I think you are looking at strength through a narrow lens by just viewing it in a low rep range. You are right about more volume equating to optimal hypertrophy, and about greater work capacity allowing greater volume, the problem is the "total strength" component. Substitute that with "10RM strength" and the logic is pretty sound in my opinion.

you are basically stating what you think i'm stating just trough the opposite side of the lens.. you are saying strength only can be measured in regards to various rep ranges which is false, an increase in general strength or "total strength" will be exactly what it is, an increase in strength regardless of rep ranges.. it's naive to think that by being stronger in fewer rep ranges won't increase your strength in higher rep ranges and virsa versa .. what i'm saying / asking is how can we optimally gain an increase in tangible "total strength" so we can increase our total volume

[ThatOneLurker]

I dunno really, thats why i ask, haven't incooperated the principles in my training, just looking for all the edges i can get.. isn't it cool from a mental standpoint as well, more variation in the program and thereby keeping it fresh?

Do you want all the edges you can get or do you want what's ''cool''?


If spend one training cycle using a 15RM then the next one using a 5RM you're basically training a 10RM (rough average of the two). You're better off just training your 10RM from the beginning and building a more specific adaptation which will provide slightly better results (SAID principle). If you find this too boring then split up your training cycles as you please. It doesn't matter all that much until you are at the advanced level anyway.

you are basically stating what you think i'm stating just trough the opposite side of the lens.. you are saying strength only can be measured in regards to various rep ranges which is false, an increase in general strength or "total strength" will be exactly what it is, an increase in strength regardless of rep ranges.. it's naive to think that by being stronger in fewer rep ranges won't increase your strength in higher rep ranges and virsa versa .. what i'm saying / asking is how can we optimally gain an increase in tangible "total strength" so we can increase our total volume

Conditioning has way more to do with your work capacity. Strength is too vague of a term. Are you referring to one's 10RM strength? 20RM strength? 3RM strength? Etc.. Bringing up your 3RM performance will bring up your 10RM performance and vice versa. However, someone who has been training their 10RM exclusively will have a stronger 10RM then someone who's been training their 3RM exclusively. On the other hand, the person who was training their 10RM will have a weaker 3RM compared to someone who was training their 3RM all along.

[BigGunz4evrybdy]

Do you want all the edges you can get or do you want what's ''cool''?


If spend one training cycle using a 15RM then the next one using a 5RM you're basically training a 10RM (rough average of the two). You're better off just training your 10RM from the beginning and building a more specific adaptation which will provide slightly better results (SAID principle). If you find this too boring then split up your training cycles as you please. It doesn't matter all that much until you are at the advanced level anyway.

Just hungry for knowledge thats all .. and btw i consider motivation an edge as well

[BigGunz4evrybdy]

Do you want all the edges you can get or do you want what's ''cool''?


If spend one training cycle using a 15RM then the next one using a 5RM you're basically training a 10RM (rough average of the two). You're better off just training your 10RM from the beginning and building a more specific adaptation which will provide slightly better results (SAID principle). If you find this too boring then split up your training cycles as you please. It doesn't matter all that much until you are at the advanced level anyway.




Conditioning has way more to do with your work capacity. Strength is too vague of a term. Are you referring to one's 10RM strength? 20RM strength? 3RM strength? Etc.. Bringing up your 3RM performance will bring up your 10RM performance and vice versa. However, someone who has been training their 10RM exclusively will have a stronger 10RM then someone who's been training their 3RM exclusively. On the other hand, the person who was training their 10RM will have a weaker 3RM compared to someone who was training their 3RM all along.

yea thats why some, including layne norton states that the optimal way of getting strong at whatever RM is by a combination of the various methods, and 10RM strength is more of a vague term than total strength, tell me if i'm totally off here, just trying to educate myself
Btw, best powerlifters are lifting in all rep ranges, however their main focus is lower rep ranges whereas ours for hypertrophy purposes is in higher

[ThatOneLurker]

yea thats why some, including layne norton states that the optimal way of getting strong at whatever RM is by a combination of the various methods, and 10RM strength is more of a vague term than total strength, tell me if i'm totally off here, just trying to educate myself
Btw, best powerlifters are lifting in all rep ranges, however their main focus is lower rep ranges whereas ours for hypertrophy purposes is in higher

I haven't the slightest clue what you mean by total strength. Powerlifters train in the low rep ranges with only their accessory work being in the higher rep ranges to assist them on their main lifts.

Powerlifters are not stronger than bodybuilders in the moderate rep range the same way bodybuilders are not stronger than powerlifters in the low rep range.

It's not hard to find the video of Tom Platz squatting over 500lbs for 23 reps that Fred Hatfield couldn't match him with but in a competition of the strongest squat Tom Platz could not best Fred Hatfield. I won't even bring up who had the bigger legs.

[CrayJay]

you are basically stating what you think i'm stating just trough the opposite side of the lens.. you are saying strength only can be measured in regards to various rep ranges which is false, an increase in general strength or "total strength" will be exactly what it is, an increase in strength regardless of rep ranges.. it's naive to think that by being stronger in fewer rep ranges won't increase your strength in higher rep ranges and virsa versa .. what i'm saying / asking is how can we optimally gain an increase in tangible "total strength" so we can increase our total volume

Not at all, I am well aware that strength increases occur across the spectrum of rep ranges (i.e., increasing your 1RM bench press from 225 to 315 will greatly improve your 5 and 10 rep maxes as well). However, depending on your goal, the rep range that becomes your primary focus will vary. What are your personal goals?

[BigGunz4evrybdy]

I haven't the slightest clue what you mean by total strength. Powerlifters train in the low rep ranges with only their accessory work being in the higher rep ranges to assist them on their main lifts.

Powerlifters are not stronger than bodybuilders in the moderate rep range the same way bodybuilders are not stronger than powerlifters in the low rep range.

It's not hard to find the video of Tom Platz squatting over 500lbs for 23 reps that Fred Hatfield couldn't match him with but in a competition of the strongest squat Tom Platz could not best Fred Hatfield. I won't even bring up who had the bigger legs.

Im not talking about accesory work, they vary their rep ranges from 75% XRM to 50%XRM etc. no definitive number of reps, the variation itself is the focus

[BigGunz4evrybdy]

Not at all, I am well aware that strength increases occur across the spectrum of rep ranges (i.e., increasing your 1RM bench press from 225 to 315 will greatly improve your 5 and 10 rep maxes as well). However, depending on your goal, the rep range that becomes your primary focus will vary. What are your personal goals?

my goal is hypertrophy, no girl cares about my bench number i'm just curios how to optimize (if it is possible) thats all

[CrayJay]

my goal is hypertrophy, no girl cares about my bench number i'm just curios how to optimize (if it is possible) thats all

I think by now you are well aware of how Kelei's stance and that of the regulars in this thread regarding hypertrophy optimization. If that is not the case then I suggest you review the OP and subsequent posts; and if that is the case then I suggest you start putting it into practice!

[BigGunz4evrybdy]

I think by now you are well aware of how Kelei's stance and that of the regulars in this thread regarding hypertrophy optimization. If that is not the case then I suggest you review the OP and subsequent posts; and if that is the case then I suggest you start putting it into practice!

I am as we speak, thanks for taking the time to answer my annoying questions!