Tips on my TX Method Programming

[MattLAX0473]

Starting Monday I want to switch from 5/3/1 to the TX Method 4 Day V2 (pg 149-150 of PPST 3rd edition)
Maxes starting I will use for S/B/D/OHP 350/300/405/195

For those not familiar it goes as follows

Monday Chest/Press Volume (sets,reps is how I have every thing listed)
BP 5x5
OHP 3x8
Tricep Extensions 3x10

Tuesday Squat/Pull Volume
Squat 5x5
SLDL 3x5 (The book has GHR or Power Cleans but I don't have regular access to a GHR and I've really only ever learned Hang cleans, plus I want to work on my DL)
BB Rows 3x10 (Don't have the book on me right now but I believe this is listed for Tuesday and Friday, might be Chins listed)

Thursday Chest/Press Intensity
BP 5x1
OHP 3-5RM You alternate which goes first each week and the first lift is 5x1 2nd lift is 3-5RM
Dips 3x10-15 But I will swap and do CGBP 3x10

Friday Squat/Pull Intensity
Squat 5RM (Phase I) 5x1 (Phase 2)
Deadlift 5RM (phase I) 1X2 (Phase 2)
BB Row 3x10

The book says to go to Phase 2 when you stop making progress on 5RM for Squat and Deadlift.
I will probably follow the protocol for running out linear progression on bench and OHP with 2x3, 3x2, 5x1 when a 5RM starts to become difficult.

5x5 @ 70%, 3x8 @ 60%, 5x1 @ 90% are what the books gives for a good starting point. I will start 5RM at my 85%. All lifts/sets I will attempt to add 5lbs for next workout. So for BP Volume I will start at 210 5x5, 2 weeks later will be next BP 5x5 and I will do 215.

I'm thinking on the BP/OHP days I will do BW Pull Ups or Lat Pull Down on Volume day, and weighted Chins on BP/OHP intensity day, along with some curlz for the gurlz.
Squat/Pull will be DB Row Tuesday on Volume day and Bent Row Friday on ID.

The book talks about adding in back off sets in other programs but I'm unsure of how to know when to do that. Does anyone have any advice on how to program back off sets for the Intensity days and how to know when to use them. I figure most of you will say do it as written and then add them if needed, but I'm unsure of how to tell/know when I need to add them and was hoping to get advice on that.

Thanks in advance.

[davisj3537]

I've never really put a lot of reading into TM, but what I'm reading now isn't flattering. Probably not your fault as I assume you just posted the program and didn't make a whole bunch of changes.

Literally every single one of your pulls is an upward pull. If that wasn't odd enough you have more pressing than pulling. Those are just two really big flaws in my eyes and I can't seem to overlook them.

[MattLAX0473]

I've never really put a lot of reading into TM, but what I'm reading now isn't flattering. Probably not your fault as I assume you just posted the program and didn't make a whole bunch of changes.

Literally every single one of your pulls is an upward pull. If that wasn't odd enough you have more pressing than pulling. Those are just two really big flaws in my eyes and I can't seem to overlook them.

I will be adding in pulling to balance things out. I did the same with 531. Not sure what you mean by saying it's only upward pulls. I have deadlift, rows, and pull ups. I want to say Tuesday Has chin ups listed and not rows.

The main thing I'm concerned with is the programming and progression of the 4 lifts. When I did 531 bench deadlift and OHP all went up but not quite as much as unexpected. Squat nearly stayed the same, and I ran the program for a year and a half.

[MattLAX0473]

I just read one of your threads in the workout program section of the boards. I was wondering why you classify bent over rows and pendlays as different directions of pulling. I could understand a Yates row being different but not BOR.

Anyway the book practical programming for strength has more than just that template for TX method, and they are all merely guidelines outside of cycling the volume and intensity of the 4 main lifts. What I'm wanting is to know how to add in more volume without adding to much and affecting progress and recovery.

[CJ93UK]

I've never really put a lot of reading into TM, but what I'm reading now isn't flattering. Probably not your fault as I assume you just posted the program and didn't make a whole bunch of changes.

Literally every single one of your pulls is an upward pull. If that wasn't odd enough you have more pressing than pulling. Those are just two really big flaws in my eyes and I can't seem to overlook them.

You're a mod now!? Congrats.

Just FYI, TM is really nothing more than a template, there is no real program. If you looked over my version you'd find a 2.5-3 to 1 pull to push balance utilizing chins, pulls, Pendlays, face pulls, deads (obviously), and with good result. The issue of my shoulders since I started this has corrected itself, no more pain, no more discomfort, some gradual changes in posture due to this and other things, and yet I'm still running TM exactly as it's advised, no deviation from the underlying guidelines.

Starting Monday I want to switch from 5/3/1 to the TX Method 4 Day V2 (pg 149-150 of PPST 3rd edition)
Maxes starting I will use for S/B/D/OHP 350/300/405/195

OP, I think it's very important to mention here not to overcomplicate things. I'm sure you remember reading in the book that Rip mentions the intermediate stage is the 1 where most people make their biggest mistakes in programming. To give you an idea, I'm currently around your bodyweight, my squat and dead are ~150-200 higher, and my programming is much simpler than yours. You talk about back off sets, and not knowing if you need them or not. Pick a basal template, something very, very simple, which you can run for a few weeks, and make changes to as you go. What I started with on TM, changed at least 4-5 times in the few months I've been running this, to what it is now.

Strength progress will tell you everything you need to know. You must've read it in the book as well, it talks about if there's an absence of PRs on ID, the stress applied on VD probably isn't high enough. What you really need to do, as this is intermediate programming, and you're entrusted with a very large part of your training, is to use experience to decide what's best for you.

Basically, instead of asking us, if you ran 1 of the TM templates as it's given in the book, with only minor changes at best, for a few weeks, you'd answer 90% of your questions about what's too much, or too little, the good and bad parts of your program, what stays the same, what needs to change, and be able to alter your program for the better as time goes on. That's how you create an optimal program. As long as you're not running retarded programming, experience is the ONLY way to know what works best for you.

[MattLAX0473]

You're a mod now!? Congrats.

Just FYI, TM is really nothing more than a template, there is no real program. If you looked over my version you'd find a 2.5-3 to 1 pull to push balance utilizing chins, pulls, Pendlays, face pulls, deads (obviously), and with good result. The issue of my shoulders since I started this has corrected itself, no more pain, no more discomfort, some gradual changes in posture due to this and other things, and yet I'm still running TM exactly as it's advised, no deviation from the underlying guidelines.



OP, I think it's very important to mention here not to overcomplicate things. I'm sure you remember reading in the book that Rip mentions the intermediate stage is the 1 where most people make their biggest mistakes in programming. To give you an idea, I'm currently around your bodyweight, my squat and dead are ~150-200 higher, and my programming is much simpler than yours. You talk about back off sets, and not knowing if you need them or not. Pick a basal template, something very, very simple, which you can run for a few weeks, and make changes to as you go. What I started with on TM, changed at least 4-5 times in the few months I've been running this, to what it is now.

Strength progress will tell you everything you need to know. You must've read it in the book as well, it talks about if there's an absence of PRs on ID, the stress applied on VD probably isn't high enough. What you really need to do, as this is intermediate programming, and you're entrusted with a very large part of your training, is to use experience to decide what's best for you.

Basically, instead of asking us, if you ran 1 of the TM templates as it's given in the book, with only minor changes at best, for a few weeks, you'd answer 90% of your questions about what's too much, or too little, the good and bad parts of your program, what stays the same, what needs to change, and be able to alter your program for the better as time goes on. That's how you create an optimal program. As long as you're not running retarded programming, experience is the ONLY way to know what works best for you.

Yea I know I will need to go back and reread some of the stuff about not progressing and what to do, just wanted some input from those who have been there and done that. When I ran 5/3/1 my squat really did not increase much if any, and when I would ask for advice I was just told to "find something that works for you" but as a former "bro-lifter" programming is still a bit new to me, and despite changing up assistance and adding in back offs I could never get over the hill on squat. The other lifts went up, I was pleased with OHP progress, bench was so-so, and deadlift was crusing along after resetting the weights 2-3 months into the program, then it just flat lined after August. Do you happen to have your version of TX Method anywhere I could view it? I will do what you said and follow the base template but I will right off the bat add in more upper pulling as the imbalance of pull to push was a concern for me as well.

[CJ93UK]

Tuesday - Volume Day: SQ=4x5, BP=5x5, SLDL/GM=3x5, PR=4x10, FP=3x15-18 (Squat, Bench Press, Stiff-Legged DeadLift/Good Morning, Pendlay Row, Face Pull)
Thursday - Recovery Day: PSQ=2x5, OHP/CGBP=3x5, PU/CU=30-40 (Paused Squat, Over Head Press/Close Grip Bench Press, Pull Up/Chin Up)
Saturday - Intensity Day: SQ=5x1, PBP=5x1, DL=1x3, PR=4x10, FP=3x15-18 (Paused Bench Press, Deadlift).

That's 95% of it, there are a couple minor exclusions, but they don't matter here.

Don't read too much into that, the SQ was 5x5 until just a week or 2 ago, I changed it for a number of reasons, I recently (a couple days ago) made a few minor changes, and as you see on ID, I'm doing singles on SQ and PBP, and a triple on DL, however this has only been going on a week or 2, and is likely to be different in another few weeks. It's hard to write a static version of my template, as you know in phase 2, running it out, things change now and again, and because I've just switched over to a cut, as well as constantly striving to improve my program, even now, it's still ever changing (but not in a way that impedes progress).

As you can see, all I do is simply squat, volume on VD, light paused on RD, PR on ID, and even though I'm cutting, I'm predicting to hit close to 500 for my 5 singles very soon. I progress at 2-2.5 kilos a week still, despite being 500-600 on S/D, and haven't had a problem yet, again, even after having started cutting, progress is still happening.

This is where I'm kinda torn on what to suggest you, because I hit decent numbers from doing nothing more than squatting. I do no squat assistance outside of paused (which is only a recovery day method), and I don't do any back off sets or anything of the sort, and that's what I think Rip was trying to say in his book, talking about intermediate mistakes. Take what worked for you at the novice stage (for me that was SS), be slightly more mindful of recovery (recovery day), slow progress slightly (weekly increases), add in maybe 1 assistance lift (paused squats), and that should do. I see now for me personally, even at the intermediate stage, not that much has changed, I thought I had to change everything, add in a ton of extra ****, move away from what I did before, but keeping it simple, and just doing very similar to what I've always done, has given me the best progress I've ever had. This goes for my other lifts too.

While you "may" require complex programming, and lifting techniques, and tons of assistance work, and back off sets or whatever, I myself see best progress from the absolute simplest programming (as Rip suggests), so if that isn't in line with what gives you results, you know more than I do. If however you haven't yet tried simplicity, and just high F/V/I execution of the big 3...it can work.

[MattLAX0473]

Thanks for the quick responses. Unfortunately I never followed SS, but in my defense I began lifting around 2 years before it came out and most of the programs I found online back in those days were 5 day bro splits. I have since seen the light. I will do what you said and start simple, log my progress, try the books suggestions on stalling, and ask for help here when I get to that point. I don't think I need super complex programming, and I feel the 5x5 with higher weights for VD will benefit me much more than what I did on 531 which was alot of the BBB (5x10 @ 60%). I'm glad to hear that you are cutting and still making progress, because I really don't want to put on much more weight, especially at my strength level. My avi says 215 but I haven't updated in probably a year. I'm around 230-233, so I feel at that weight my body weight should be able to increase in strength for quite a bit.

How long are your typical workouts on the 3 day split? I have considered the 3 day split and doing some condition Tuesday and then Friday after ID or Saturday, but my work schedule at times really limits my time.

[jayshort21]

I'm running a 4 day TM split that's pretty similar, so hopefully this helps.

I would just run the base program for a while and see how it goes. If you want to sub in SLDL for power clean, OKAY, but other than that leave it how it is and run the program out for a while. The increased squat volume compared to you last program should really jump up your squats and get you some momentum.

Personally I really like the 4 day split because I can keep each workout about 1:15 or so. Rather than the 3 day split which VD took 2.5 hours for me.

Also, instead of going from a 5RM to 5x1 on Squats and Deads, I would run out those lifts as well. If you fail 1x5 then go to 2x3 then 2x2 then 5x1. You'll gain a lot of ground that way and for me after 3 months dropping down to a 3RM on Intensity Day made me feel so much better. Fives are heavy and long.

For me I just do 2 lifts per day and maybe add in some chins on upper body days if I have time. Give it a shot and reevaluate in a few months. If you eat right, you'll make some great progress.

[davisj3537]

I will be adding in pulling to balance things out. I did the same with 531. Not sure what you mean by saying it's only upward pulls. I have deadlift, rows, and pull ups. I want to say Tuesday Has chin ups listed and not rows.

The main thing I'm concerned with is the programming and progression of the 4 lifts. When I did 531 bench deadlift and OHP all went up but not quite as much as unexpected. Squat nearly stayed the same, and I ran the program for a year and a half.

I just read one of your threads in the workout program section of the boards. I was wondering why you classify bent over rows and pendlays as different directions of pulling. I could understand a Yates row being different but not BOR.

Anyway the book practical programming for strength has more than just that template for TX method, and they are all merely guidelines outside of cycling the volume and intensity of the 4 main lifts. What I'm wanting is to know how to add in more volume without adding to much and affecting progress and recovery.

Adding pullups (and pulls in general) is just a great idea. Not sure what you consider a BOR, but most of them I see are with the back at a 45 degree angle and the weight rowed to the stomach. If it isn't a true horizontal row you won't be getting comparable rear delt, mid/lower trap, rhomboid recruitment IMO.

It's really odd for me to read someone saying they ran 5/3/1 for 18 months and squat didn't move. I have to assume traditional bulk and cut cycles being nonexistent was a big part of your lack of results.


(Still reading the rest of the posts ITT)

Edit: Like normal CJ93UK drops the hammer of knowledge in here. Good advice from him.

I think you're on the right track here. In terms of what pulls to add I'd suggest at least 1 postural pull like face pulls or reverse flies and plenty of pullups or similar directional pulling. True horizontal rows aren't going to hurt anything either.

[MattLAX0473]

Adding pullups (and pulls in general) is just a great idea. Not sure what you consider a BOR, but most of them I see are with the back at a 45 degree angle and the weight rowed to the stomach. If it isn't a true horizontal row you won't be getting comparable rear delt, mid/lower trap, rhomboid recruitment IMO.

It's really odd for me to read someone saying they ran 5/3/1 for 18 months and squat didn't move. I have to assume traditional bulk and cut cycles being nonexistent was a big part of your lack of results.


(Still reading the rest of the posts ITT)

Edit: Like normal CJ93UK drops the hammer of knowledge in here. Good advice from him.

I think you're on the right track here. In terms of what pulls to add I'd suggest at least 1 postural pull like face pulls or reverse flies and plenty of pullups or similar directional pulling. True horizontal rows aren't going to hurt anything either.

I would like to believe I'm more horizontal than 45 degrees but I will probably go back to doing Pendlay Rows as the muscles you said they are hitting are probably a weak point for me. I normally do face fulls or rear delt flies on my upper days so I will continue with those. Do you think it will hurt if I do the vertical pulls on my upper push days and horizontal rows on my lower body days? The book put the upper back work on leg day so you essential have an "easy day" and "hard day", fluctuating the stress and allowing for better recovery. In another template it has 4 days with being Intensity BP/Volume Press Intensity Squat/Volume Pull Intensity Press/Volume Press Intensity Pull/Volume Squat which is similiar to 531, but it states the high intensity/high volume every day is harder to recover from, which I think contributed to my slow/no progress in 531 and the reason I am trying to do 2 Volume days and 2 Intensity days. Unfortionately my works schedule at this time involves 12 hour shifts which often an hour commute each way so sleep is limited to 6 hours at best while I am on my work rotation (I usually do this for 7-8 days and then get 6-7 days off, 2 days to travel, 1 office day, and 4 days off for my work schedule over a 2 week period).

[CJ93UK]

How long are your typical workouts on the 3 day split? I have considered the 3 day split and doing some condition Tuesday and then Friday after ID or Saturday, but my work schedule at times really limits my time.

Volume day, 1.5-2 hours. Recovery day, less than an hour. Intensity day, 2-2.5 hours.

Volume day differs depending on the weight, 2 hours is when I'm doing close to my 5RM weights, almost time for a reset, but when I'm doing moderately heavy weight (80% 1RM), I can get it down in just over 1.5. Recovery day is of course gonna be quick and easy. Intensity day, when I do a set of 5 on each lift, 2 hours or even under that is common, but when I do 5 singles, and they're PRs, at my numbers, it definitely stretches long, y'know, long, plentiful warm-ups, lots of rest between sets (my conditioning is ****, which makes it longer still). I think I'm an example of what long TM sessions can be, but most people could probably do it in some amount less. I also do 20 minutes of flexibility/mobility work prior to each session, so that extends it further, but again, if someone else isn't doing that, they'll find it takes less time.

[davisj3537]

I'd kinda advise against adding back work on pressing day only because you follow the pressing days with back work. I'm a big fan of allowing muscles to rest for at least one day before hitting them again.

Your work schedule suggests you're an oil/gas man like myself.

[MattLAX0473]

Ah yes you guessed correct. Field engineer dealing with hydraulic fracturing. What do you deal with?

[MattLAX0473]

I'm running a 4 day TM split that's pretty similar, so hopefully this helps.

I would just run the base program for a while and see how it goes. If you want to sub in SLDL for power clean, OKAY, but other than that leave it how it is and run the program out for a while. The increased squat volume compared to you last program should really jump up your squats and get you some momentum.

Personally I really like the 4 day split because I can keep each workout about 1:15 or so. Rather than the 3 day split which VD took 2.5 hours for me.

Also, instead of going from a 5RM to 5x1 on Squats and Deads, I would run out those lifts as well. If you fail 1x5 then go to 2x3 then 2x2 then 5x1. You'll gain a lot of ground that way and for me after 3 months dropping down to a 3RM on Intensity Day made me feel so much better. Fives are heavy and long.

For me I just do 2 lifts per day and maybe add in some chins on upper body days if I have time. Give it a shot and reevaluate in a few months. If you eat right, you'll make some great progress.

For the running it out, on the startingstrength.com forums I asked about going the 1x5 2x3 3x2 then 5x1 route. Andy Baker replied that he was simply giving another option for progression, but he said that 5RM then 5 singles was a very effective way for continuing progress for a long time.

Thanks for all the replies. I will keep it basic and based on feeling/time, decide when and where to put the pull ups, rows, and facepulls/rear delt flies in.

[davisj3537]

Ah yes you guessed correct. Field engineer dealing with hydraulic fracturing. What do you deal with?

I do the research to find out who owns the mineral rights.

Sounds like you have the programming figured out. Good luck man.