Lift heavy, get strong, rawr! - Total load of crap

[mpizzle421]

So I've noticed a real problem with the advice I see for weight loss, lifting, etc. that I want to share some feedback on. (Including stickies on this forum, bb.com)

A few of the suggestions out there.

1. Lift heavy - Lift to failure, fatigue, etc. Focus on gaining strength.
2. Focus on compound exercises - Bench, row, deadlift, squat

This may be my own personal experience here - but I honestly believe that advice to be absolute bs. That's not to say that you can't have success with those principles. I'm confident that you can. That's also not to say you won't make impressive progress. I'm confident that you can.

The problem, as I see it, is that giving this advice to beginners will set them up for some serious problems down the road.

It's probably a much safer bet to focus people on creating a mind/muscle connection. Before you really get into the swing of things and generate that connection (which can take > 6 months) it can be extremely tricky to recognize subtle problems with form. Squatting from the knees, benching from the shoulders, etc.

Even when you have someone watching you (a trainer, experience partner) those small (or large) issues with form almost always exist. It becomes even more difficult when going through routines that focus on gaining strength (allpro, starting strength, etc.). What's the point of increasing weight on lifts that are probably not being performed correctly in the first place?

I mean, have you actually looked at the amount of detail that Riptoe goes in for each of the compound lifts? The idea that a beginner will get it right (especially as they do get stronger and start challenging themselves with more weight) is absolutely ridiculous.

Even in a perfect world where your noob form is great - your rotator cuff, elbows, knees, wrists are all probably weak. Unless you're a farmer or worked construction your whole life - one of the reasons you're here trying to shed fat is that you've lived soft. You haven't done things to strengthen your joints and less used muscles. There's a good chance (and everyone is unique so it doesn't apply to 100%) you're probably setting yourself up for injury. Sure you're able to bench press more weight, but you're ruining your perfectly health (but weak) rotator cuff in the process. Yeah you're squatting more but your knees are suffering for it.

It just seems to be much better advice to suggest that people slowly ease into strength training. Spend several months (even more depending on your age) with very controlled movements with weight that can e easily handled without fatigue to prepare for what would traditionally be considered a beginning bodybuilder routine.

I just get annoyed when I see stickies about weight loss and/or strength training (geared for beginners) and see the suggestion to "lift heavy and do the big compounds".

This probably won't be a popular thread but any constructive thoughts?

[Aynom]

So I've noticed a real problem with the advice I see for weight loss, lifting, etc. that I want to share some feedback on. (Including stickies on this forum, bb.com)

A few of the suggestions out there.

1. Lift heavy - Lift to failure, fatigue, etc. Focus on gaining strength.
2. Focus on compound exercises - Bench, row, deadlift, squat

This may be my own personal experience here - but I honestly believe that advice to be absolute bs. That's not to say that you can't have success with those principles. I'm confident that you can. That's also not to say you won't make impressive progress. I'm confident that you can.

The problem, as I see it, is that giving this advice to beginners will set them up for some serious problems down the road.

It's probably a much safer bet to focus people on creating a mind/muscle connection. Before you really get into the swing of things and generate that connection (which can take > 6 months) it can be extremely tricky to recognize subtle problems with form. Squatting from the knees, benching from the shoulders, etc.

Even when you have someone watching you (a trainer, experience partner) those small (or large) issues with form almost always exist. It becomes even more difficult when going through routines that focus on gaining strength (allpro, starting strength, etc.). What's the point of increasing weight on lifts that are probably not being performed correctly in the first place?

I mean, have you actually looked at the amount of detail that Riptoe goes in for each of the compound lifts? The idea that a beginner will get it right (especially as they do get stronger and start challenging themselves with more weight) is absolutely ridiculous.

Even in a perfect world where your noob form is great - your rotator cuff, elbows, knees, wrists are all probably weak. Unless you're a farmer or worked construction your whole life - one of the reasons you're here trying to shed fat is that you've lived soft. You haven't done things to strengthen your joints and less used muscles. There's a good chance (and everyone is unique so it doesn't apply to 100%) you're probably setting yourself up for injury. Sure you're able to bench press more weight, but you're ruining your perfectly health (but weak) rotator cuff in the process. Yeah you're squatting more but your knees are suffering for it.

It just seems to be much better advice to suggest that people slowly ease into strength training. Spend several months (even more depending on your age) with very controlled movements with weight that can e easily handled without fatigue to prepare for what would traditionally be considered a beginning bodybuilder routine.

I just get annoyed when I see stickies about weight loss and/or strength training (geared for beginners) and see the suggestion to "lift heavy and do the big compounds".

This probably won't be a popular thread but any constructive thoughts?

This would explain why Stronglifts recommends complete beginners or those that are misinformed to begin with the bar on the squat/ohp/bench.... lol.

And that's not the only routine so...

[Dan3317]

Nobody is telling anybody to jump under a 300lb barbell and start squatting on their first day. The routines for beginner (the good ones at least), tell them to start with the bar , weight progression is set a slow pace to allow the CNS and joints to adapt. The programs generally have information of mobility/stretching/etc to keep joints healthy. The term "heavy" applies to the rep range they are recommended to use (generally around 5) for the compound movements, not "heavy" as in max out the second you step in the gym.

Getting strong is the only way to help beginners get bigger. I can't recommend them to do 10lb dumbbell curls and leg extensions focusing on MMC with the intention that it will at all help them get bigger, because it's just a straight up lie. It'll take months for them to get to weights that are actually stressing their muscles, and in that time, I'm sure they are becoming more in-tuned with their body.

[ironwill2008]

So I've noticed a real problem with the advice I see for weight loss, lifting, etc. that I want to share some feedback on. (Including stickies on this forum, bb.com)

A few of the suggestions out there.

1. Lift heavy - Lift to failure, fatigue, etc. Focus on gaining strength.
2. Focus on compound exercises - Bench, row, deadlift, squat

This may be my own personal experience here - but I honestly believe that advice to be absolute bs. That's not to say that you can't have success with those principles. I'm confident that you can. That's also not to say you won't make impressive progress. I'm confident that you can.

The problem, as I see it, is that giving this advice to beginners will set them up for some serious problems down the road.

It's probably a much safer bet to focus people on creating a mind/muscle connection. Before you really get into the swing of things and generate that connection (which can take > 6 months) it can be extremely tricky to recognize subtle problems with form. Squatting from the knees, benching from the shoulders, etc.

Even when you have someone watching you (a trainer, experience partner) those small (or large) issues with form almost always exist. It becomes even more difficult when going through routines that focus on gaining strength (allpro, starting strength, etc.). What's the point of increasing weight on lifts that are probably not being performed correctly in the first place?

I mean, have you actually looked at the amount of detail that Riptoe goes in for each of the compound lifts? The idea that a beginner will get it right (especially as they do get stronger and start challenging themselves with more weight) is absolutely ridiculous.

Even in a perfect world where your noob form is great - your rotator cuff, elbows, knees, wrists are all probably weak. Unless you're a farmer or worked construction your whole life - one of the reasons you're here trying to shed fat is that you've lived soft. You haven't done things to strengthen your joints and less used muscles. There's a good chance (and everyone is unique so it doesn't apply to 100%) you're probably setting yourself up for injury. Sure you're able to bench press more weight, but you're ruining your perfectly health (but weak) rotator cuff in the process. Yeah you're squatting more but your knees are suffering for it.

It just seems to be much better advice to suggest that people slowly ease into strength training. Spend several months (even more depending on your age) with very controlled movements with weight that can e easily handled without fatigue to prepare for what would traditionally be considered a beginning bodybuilder routine.

I just get annoyed when I see stickies about weight loss and/or strength training (geared for beginners) and see the suggestion to "lift heavy and do the big compounds".

This probably won't be a popular thread but any constructive thoughts?

No regular poster in this forum advises noobs to "lift heavy" right from the start. And neither do any of the recommended beginner programs found in the stickies. By far, the standard advice for such trainees is to start out with an empty bar, and stick with good form.


I haven't noticed you posting any advice of your own in this, or any other forum here. Instead of being annoyed at, and critical of, the efforts of others to help beginners, I suggest you get busy and jump in and help correct whatever shortcomings you perceive to exist on this site.





I'll be looking forward to your greatly increased involvement in advising the hundreds of beginners posting their questions here daily.

[grouchyjarhead]

I'll be looking forward to your greatly increased involvement in advising the hundreds of beginners posting their questions here daily.

[mpizzle421]

I'll define what I think people mean when they say lift heavy. I think that people are saying lift to progress (progressive overload). Lift to get stronger.

My issue with that isn't that I think people are being told to throw caution to the wind and load up the bar. I'm also aware of the fact that form is heavily focused on and the dangers of progressing at the expense of form are made clear.

I'll share the specifics of my own challenge to help clarify what I'm saying/

I'm in my 30's and have lived an unfortunately sedentary lifestyle. Poor posture (including work as I sit in an office in front of a laptop for my entire work day), lack of physical activity, poor diet, all contributing to my current state of being.

I hired a trainer in the beginning to help me with form (not being a total dummy). I researched (starting strength, burn the fat feed the muscle, bodybuilding forums, etc.) and came away with the following conclusions:

1. Lift to progress (lift heavy).
2. Machines / Isolation lifts can be counter productive (especially if you don't start with the core compound lifts to get a solid foundation).
3. Never sacrifice form.

I personally chose to use Allpros routine on bb.com because I felt more comfortable with the rep range. I tested and chose a weight that I was comfortable with. I could do reps of 10 without sacrificing form and deload the first week (as recommended) by using that weight as my start (sets of 8). I then started to work through the program.

Here are my personal observations about why that didn't work well for me (and why I can assume it may not work well for other beginners with a similar starting point).

The problem I ran into wasn't really about proper form. It was a problem of my overall conditioning. As I started to work through the program, I got stronger. Presses (bench and overhead) I did particularly well at. My shoulders, chest, back got stronger and I progressed (in my opinion) fairly well. While as a beginner I don't think I had formed a solid connection between my mind and body that comes from lifting experience (feeling the muscles being engaged by a given movement and really understanding my center of balance, etc.) I think I did well (especially with a solid trainer over my shoulder).

My problem was my starting point. My pecs and shoulders may have been ready to add more weight to the bar, but my rotator cuff simply wasn't.

My quads my have been ready to add more weight to the bar, but my knees (that had been abused by years of supporting my fat frame) were unfortunately not.

What I feel was needed, before ever trying to attempt a progressive strength building routine, was months of conditioning. Months of building the mind/body connection so that my form would be perfect. Months of strengthening the supportive muscles and stabilizers to prepare to attempt to build strength.

I think that's the kind of cautionary approach that should be taken by the new people out there. Not everyone will run into my particular problems or any at all - but the issue is that you don't always know you're going to be susceptible to these kinds of injuries until they happen (again, caused by lack of conditioning - sometimes for YEARS).

Perhaps that makes more sense or am I totally off my rocker?

[BeauFlexington]

I reckon if one spends years upon years (upon years) in decline, it might be a good idea to see a doc for clearance, prior to athletic endeavours of a strenuous and ongoing nature.

Beginner strength programs are designed for people at lowest, undeveloped levels of strength, but can at least hold an empty barbell without injuring themselves. Which is to say, they're made for "... the other 99%..." because it would be impossible to tailor something that's perfect for 100% of the newbie lifters, 100% of the time. Some basic threshold of competency must be assumed, somewhere, and that means 1% are just going to have to be a little more careful, and use a little more common sense.

[jack505]

Good form is usually properly learned when you actually go out and feel it and why form is good. It's relatively hard to explain the feeling of experience under the bar. If working with a trainer helped you that's great I guess you got what you paid for. The internet is vast with misinformation and broscience using them has always been at your own risk but its free.

[Sader762]

Sounds to me like you're looking for an excuse to not work that hard. If you did all pro and follow the recommendations then your lifts should progress normally. And if you did it with proper form there should be no pain involved. If your knees in joints are all messed up because of, as you say, you've been fat most of your life than that is another issue altogether.

Rehabilitation of the muscles and ligaments can most definitely help improve joint issues, but if you've abused your body so badly that that does not help then you're only hope maybe surgery to fix these issues. But don't go blaming very popular and successful programs for your failures. These programs have worked for thousands and thousands of people. I alone spent six months on all pro and saw significant improvements in all of my lifts.

Compound exercises and progressive overload works.

[davisj3537]

I'm confused as to what you are trying to accomplish here. You are saying that doing the major compounds is bad advice...what?

[SavageNerdz]

I'm confused as to what you are trying to accomplish here. You are saying that doing the major compounds is bad advice...what?

I believe OP is stating that while he is progressing in strength, chest, back, etc the stabilizer muscles/joints are not up to par and that poses a health risk? I'm still trying to decode it honestly... I think the simple solution would be to just stay at a weight your rotator cuff and knees can handle. None of us jumped up 100lbs on any lift over night... Rather it takes months and months of hard work conditioning the body before anyone hits numbers that should pose a significant threat to joints, etc.. However, OP may be prone to injury, i'm not too sure.

[mpizzle421]

Sounds to me like you're looking for an excuse to not work that hard.
Clearly.

If you did all pro and follow the recommendations then your lifts should progress normally. And if you did it with proper form there should be no pain involved.

And you qualify that with...?

If your knees in joints are all messed up because of, as you say, you've been fat most of your life than that is another issue altogether.

True

if you've abused your body so badly

> 10 years of obesity and poor posture along with a poor Americanized diet that likely contributed to inflammation.

But don't go blaming very popular and successful programs for your failures. These programs have worked for thousands and thousands of people. I alone spent six months on all pro and saw significant improvements in all of my lifts.

Not blaming exactly. Suggesting that the common middle-aged desk hero (like myself) may require "prerequisites" before attempting a beginning strength training program like Allpro.

Compound exercises and progressive overload works.

I don't argue that.

I'm confused as to what you are trying to accomplish here. You are saying that doing the major compounds is bad advice...what?

No. I think I'm trying to figure out if there are steps that should have been taken prior to starting Allpro.

I believe OP is stating that while he is progressing in strength, chest, back, etc the stabilizer muscles/joints are not up to par and that poses a health risk?

Correct. As said - from years of neglect. I can't imagine that is an uncommon condition.

I'm still trying to decode it honestly...

Figure out where I went wrong, and what I should do next by bouncing thoughts off of people that will surely abuse me for poor thinking.

I think the simple solution would be to just stay at a weight your rotator cuff and knees can handle.

It appears that would be weight that doesn't challenge me to progress - which in general doesn't fit the forumal pescribed by the stanard starting routines.

None of us jumped up 100lbs on any lift over night... Rather it takes months and months of hard work conditioning the body before anyone hits numbers that should pose a significant threat to joints, etc..

I started out fairly strong for being out of shape. I was never an advanced lifter, but had some experience here and there over the years. Day one, the trainer (in hind-sight not the best formula for success) was testing my strength to find optimal weight to use and found that I was able to bench ~145 pretty comfortably with 10 reps. He opted for dumbell presses and I was up to 50lbs each hand in ~1 month.

However, OP may be prone to injury, i'm not too sure.

Me either. I think I may have started out with some issues (posture related impingement, a bit of degeneration in the knees, etc.). The problem is that I was without symptoms.

[Sader762]

Did you see your family doctor BEFORE you started working out?

[Mdenatale]

OP, The issue you are describing isn't a generalized problem for all beginners. It is a problem for you and maybe a few others that are middle aged and severely out of shape.

For the vast majority of beginners All-Pros will be the ideal introduction to weight lifting. It has a a higher reps range than others which promotes a slightly lower weight and lots of opportunity to work on form. It has built in periodization (heavy, mid and light days) which again offers plenty of opportunity to work on form and the mind muscle connection you are talking about. It has steady progression, which is what all beginners need. Most beginners actually complain about it being to slow in progression and not enough volume.

What would you suggest? Don't add weight and just keep doing the same thing over and over?

I think you came into weight lifting with some preexisting issues that were exposed while training and you are trying to generalize that to the entire population of beginners.

[dougy08]

Sure lots of people that have been sitting at a desk in front of a computer eating take out for every meal for 15 years of their adult life have terrible posture and are over weight. For that group of individuals starting with a doctor's visit is probably the first step. If you're cleared to exercise it probably means going to a C.S.C.S or equivalent ACSM that uses FMS and knows subclinical posture problems and can address them.

[BeauFlexington]

... the common middle-aged desk hero (like myself) may require "prerequisites" before attempting a beginning strength training program like Allpro.

Growing a pair would be a good start.


LoL at 36 = "middle-aged". :smh: the kidz these days.

[Floider]

Going to have to second the grow a pair. If you need to swing pink dumbbells and do 6 months of body weight exercises to develop your "mind muscle connection" go for it. Most people that are interested in getting stronger and smart enough to follow an established beginner program don't need to do that. They can develop their "mind muscle connection" (whatever that is) by doing the actual exercises and getting stronger.

Also just a general disclaimer that may be important since it seems like you are not aware of it: If you make getting stronger a long term goal things are going to hurt. There are going to be times when your rotator cuffs hurt. There are going to be times when your knees ache. You are going to tweak your back eventually. That is part of it...

If you don't want to hurt don't try to get stronger. Pick a weight you can do easily now and don't increase that weight and don't go close to failure. Take plenty of time off, spend a few afternoons a week drinking cokes and eating little debbies on the couch while you catch up on Oprah episodes you missed on the days you did work out.

[grouchyjarhead]

Best thing for my bad knees was squatting deep and heavy. My knee pain went down a lot when I did those, then over the few years off I had it came back. Back to squatting again and my knees are already feeling better.

If it hurts, either your form is off or you have some kind of physiological problem that you need to rehab before doing it. That's why virtually every form of exercise out there urges you to speak to your doctor if you're in bad shape and just starting out prior to starting.

As for a "mind muscle connection", heavy weights pretty much demand it so if you progress up to using an appreciable weight you're going to get it. I don't think tossing around pink dumbbells and doing push-ups on your knees is going to give you quite the same effect.

[tamu2005]

Best thing for my bad knees was squatting deep and heavy.

Couldn't agree more.

[SquattsAndOats]

Best thing for my bad knees was squatting deep and heavy.

^ This. I agree with this.

Nothing that a little bit of patience and common sense can't solve.
.
Anyway, to be more supportive... I'd say it's a really good thing that you've made that conscious decision to get back in the game, and to the gym.

Now stop complaining, read what people are telling you, stop resisting and keep up the hard work. It will all pay off in the end bro.

[mpizzle421]

Did you see your family doctor BEFORE you started working out?

Yes. I mean, have you been to a doctor recently? What exactly do you think they're going to do?

Check for the obvious signs and symptoms, give you a general physical and blood work, and approve you to start your program. You aren't going to get expensive diagnostic procedures required to really find problems if you aren't experiencing any symptoms. Sheesh.

OP, The issue you are describing isn't a generalized problem for all beginners. It is a problem for you and maybe a few others that are middle aged and severely out of shape.

I'm not so convinced that it's such a limited issue. Walk around Walmart for an hour and let me know what you see?

For the vast majority of HEALTHY beginners All-Pros will be the ideal introduction to weight lifting.

Corrected your statement ^^

What would you suggest? Don't add weight and just keep doing the same thing over and over?

Maybe so. As you go through your rehab or conditioning that's exactly what you do for a few months?

I did some digging on other sites and looked at Lyle Mcdonald's bodyrecomposition. From what I gather his personality leaves something to be desired (apparently seen as being a bit of a jerk), but I think the guy is fairly well respected for his knowledge and credentials. Certainly not a cracker box trainer.

I did some reading on a fairly recent series of lengthy articles he wrote on beginning weight training and it sure seems like there may have been support for my point of view.

A few relevant snippets comparing a few different programs he uses with clients (starting strength vs. beginning barbell vs. machine based). Bolded a few key points:

As noted above, my machine based program was aimed at total beginners seeking, usually, general health/fitness. They were generally older, had no previous experience in the weight room and had limited time to exercise. So I needed something that was time efficient, got the job done and that I could get them to a basic level of competency on quickly without overwhelming them. Again, in different contexts, either with individuals with different goals or who had had previous lifting experience, or what have you, a different approach was used.

And if you’re wondering why I’m beating this particular dead horse, it’s because I predict with 99% certainty that someone will read this article series and state that “Lyle McDonald only advocates a single set of machines for everybody.” And that’s simply not the case. Rather, it’s simply that I take into account the Importance of Context when it comes to training. And the context of a 35 year old female with no training experience and limited time to exercise is different than a 19 year old male who eventually wants to compete in powerlifting. And what I’d do in that each situation would be completely different.

And finally - equally relevant to this thread and the concerns I expressed:

Finally I’d note again that all of the above assumes an injury free individual with no major imbalances coming into the gym, an assumption that is often incorrect. In specific cases, very different approaches (with more remedial work on stretching or almost rehab type movements) might be indicated or necessary but that is far beyond the scope of this article.

^^ That is almost exactly how I felt I should have started. Specifically, "almost rehab type movements" to resolve imbalances/issues that I was starting with. I believe that had I done so, I would have been able to progress without some of the challenges I face today. How true is that going to be of people in their 30's, 40's and up who have been obese for a large number of years?

I just don't think that the program/starting point that you should recommend for a morbidly obese victim of their own unhealthy lifestyle is going to match the program/starting point for a 20 year old college kid. As pointed out previously - the same difference would apply for a 40 year old 250lbs male with 35% body fat and a 20 year old 160lbs male with 15% body fat with a mutual interest in running. They are in two completely different starting conditions and it's unlikely that they would train the same way. Doesn't this just seems like common sense?

Link to Lyle's article for those interested in reading it:

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/mus...g-part-4.html/

[Dan3317]

You're going to have to understand that 90% of the people asking for advice on here are young guys looking to gain muscle. If someone is morbidly obese and lack the finesse to attempt one of the weight lifting routines on here, their first stop should be asking their doctor what route would be best for them. It's called personal responsibility, and this website isn't intended to give medical advice and I make that quite clear to people who ask for help with injuries and other peculiar issues. Disclaimers of "Talking to your doctor before beginning an exercise regime" are all over the place and it's up to them to follow that disclaimer or if not, accept responsibility for what happens to them if something goes wrong.

[ironwill2008]

I just don't think that the program/starting point that you should recommend for a morbidly obese victim of their own unhealthy lifestyle is going to match the program/starting point for a 20 year old college kid.

You continue to repeat ^^^^this same point.


Where do you see any regular posters in this forum improperly advising beginners relative to their age and/or physical condition?


Be specific; post links to the threads in question.

[rimam1]

OP, you read Rippetoe, so that's great. Also, Mehdi has some really great videos and articles on form for all the big movements.

He also has great articles on common mistakes that people encounter on the big lifts.

Any serious lifter should read, re-read, and re-read these, especially as they increase their loads.

Anecdotally, whenever I tweak or hurt myself, I find that it's because my form was bad. Luckily, it causes me to focus on form again, so it's a blessing in disguise.

For example, I started overhead pressing 135 and realized that I wasn't keeping my butt/hips tight and pushed forward. I learn about my body through these tweaks.

Again, this is all advice geared towards someone who takes lifting seriously.

So I wouldn't call the advice BS. It's very relevant for people who are ready to make a real committment to lifting.

[BeauFlexington]

I just don't think that the program/starting point that you should recommend for a morbidly obese victim of their own unhealthy lifestyle is going to match the program/starting point for a 20 year old college kid. As pointed out previously - the same difference would apply for a 40 year old 250lbs male with 35% body fat and a 20 year old 160lbs male with 15% body fat with a mutual interest in running. They are in two completely different starting conditions and it's unlikely that they would train the same way. Doesn't this just seems like common sense?

What a coincidence. The "40 year old" starting point you describe is pretty much where I started a few years ago (5'9" 35% 215), except I was even older, with added sciatica and lower back issues. Now older still, I'm at 175, 14%, in better shape than my twenties, deadlifting and squatting 4 days/week. The sciatica and lower back probs are "used to haves" now. Permit me to re-iterate that growing a pair is a more useful prerequisite than any pink dumbbell fitness strategy.

[dougy08]

OP this seems like a straw man to me.

[mpizzle421]

What a coincidence. The "40 year old" starting point you describe is pretty much where I started a few years ago (5'9" 35% 215), except I was even older, with added sciatica and lower back issues. Now older still, I'm at 175, 14%, in better shape than my twenties, deadlifting and squatting 4 days/week. The sciatica and lower back probs are "used to haves" now. Permit me to re-iterate that growing a pair is a more useful prerequisite than any pink dumbbell fitness strategy.

I'm not sure what grow a pair means exactly. The last time I checked the danglers I have between my legs were not ovaries. The small fleshy thing between them may look like a clit, but I still suspect it to be a penis - just slightly smaller than average

What are you suggesting I need to do?

You continue to repeat ^^^^this same point.


Where do you see any regular posters in this forum improperly advising beginners relative to their age and/or physical condition?


Be specific; post links to the threads in question.

I wasn't really talking about a specific thread as much as my general perception. Would it help if I edit my original post to sound less like an attack (apologies for that - reviewing it, it would clearly be interpreted as that) and more of a expression of frustration over the particulars of my situation.

[BeauFlexington]

What are you suggesting I need to do?

You haven't stated a destination where you want to go, other than some oblique complaining about recommended beginner programs. But any good start in any direction will include figuring out your daily calorie requirements, protein and dietary fat minimums, and the stickies in the Nutrition forum are the best resource for that. Proceeding further in that direction, is the implementation of those targets for fat loss, if that's still a goal.

[ironwill2008]

I wasn't really talking about a specific thread as much as my general perception. Would it help if I edit my original post to sound less like an attack (apologies for that - reviewing it, it would clearly be interpreted as that) and more of a expression of frustration over the particulars of my situation.

Too late for that now, OP. You'd do well to just let this thread die it's natural death.




I tend to be overprotective (maybe to a flaw, but that's a flaw I'll gladly accept) of the handful of long-term and very knowledgeable posters here who spend a lot of their own valuable time, for free, trying to guide beginners. When a thread or post that I perceive to be unjustly critical comes up in here, I'm going to call it out, every time. If there's actual substance to the criticism, I'll deal with it, within the rules of this forum.



Good luck meeting your fitness goals for 2015.

[Mdenatale]

Corrected your statement ^^

My statement was already correct. All-Pro's is appropriate for all beginning lifters. Of course they should address an existing injury that prevents them from doing exercise. That's where the visit to the doctor comes in. If you don't have any injuries and you find yourself whining about All-Pro's being too hard then you really do need to man up. That's what everyone is getting at when they say you need to grow a pair. If you aren't injured and still can't hack it then you aren't cut out for weight lifting. That IS NOT the case of most people looking for their first lifting routine.

I did some digging on other sites and looked at Lyle Mcdonald's bodyrecomposition. From what I gather his personality leaves something to be desired (apparently seen as being a bit of a jerk), but I think the guy is fairly well respected for his knowledge and credentials. Certainly not a cracker box trainer.

I did some reading on a fairly recent series of lengthy articles he wrote on beginning weight training and it sure seems like there may have been support for my point of view.

A few relevant snippets comparing a few different programs he uses with clients (starting strength vs. beginning barbell vs. machine based). Bolded a few key points:

In that article he identifies Starting Strength and a generic Barbell routine as well as a machine routine that he very clearly indicates is for a specific type of beginner. The vast majority of beginners coming to BB.com will do better with SS or the barbell routine. Also note he even says the machine based routine won't be appropriate for someone starting off with an injury or major imbalance. That would require a very specific plan for that person, i.e. advice from a doctor or physical therapist.

And FYI, I started lifting at 41 and obese after a 20 year layoff. I started on a much more aggressive beginner routine than All-Pros. Sure I was sore at first, but I pushed through that and I've made a ton of progress. I certainly wouldn't have been better off starting with a super conservative "rehab" program. When advice is given out to beginners here their current state is usually considered. I've seen morbidly obese people given advice to consult a doctor and take it slow before moving into a full lifting routine.

I'm not sure where you are seeing all kinds of old, morbidly obese, injured beginners being told to jump right into Starting Strength or something similar.