Cardio = More Fat???

[RichardDavis]

What do you guys make of this?

http://www.t-nation.com/training/fin...-cardio-coffin

[silverlightning]

everything comes down to diet no matter if it's sports, BB, PL, WL or just doing cardio type workouts.

[RichardDavis]

So, you think the article is full of ****? Is T-Nation trustworthy, or a haven for broscience?

[jwood1712]

I mean I take that they're trying to get the point across (even though it's been beaten to death already, and if you're on BB you likely have heard it before) that without exceptional nutrition you're not going to get the results you're hoping for. There are however a couple points that the article is confusing. They sort of try to imply that the treadmill isn't doing you any good. Obviously athletes have been running for thousands of years to stay fit. The truth is that even though you're burning off some of the bad stuff, if your nutrition sucks you're just going to replace anything burned at a higher rate than you lost in the first place. In my experience regular cardio hasn't ever been the cause of someone getting "fat." A bad diet will make you fat. It's true that your body adapts quickly and will not burn as much, but that's why treadmills have different speed and incline settings. If you're not pushing yourself to a at least by the end of your run, you're not working hard enough IMO. And btw as important as it is, I personally hate cardio. As far as T Nation, to me it is less credible than the thousands of people who post on these forums with their actual results and for the most part, honest information.

[trickyB]

I skimmed the article and agree with the basic premise. I know a few marathon runners IRL and they fit the profile. None of them look athletic and I would say the most active of them is obese. In fact, my GF does an hour or more of LISS cardio everyday. While she also tracks her calories if she spent half of that time weight training I have no doubt her body composition would be that much better.

[Plateauplower]

The body adapts to stimuli. Becoming more efficent with caloric expediture would lower overall metabolism. The article is talking about high levels of steady state cardio, this would likely effect a lot of things in the body likely increasing cortisol etc. HIIT intervals are better than steady state for fat burning, more muscle is recruited for high intensity, but steady state is good for overall cardiovascular health. Cardio is not necessary for fat loss, but good to get some in anyway imo for overall health.

Look at mail carriers that walk their routes, if low intensity steady state was exceptional at burning fat they would all be shredded if they didn't eat a ton of food. There are some thoughts that even the fact of being in good cardiovascular shape would lower tdee. If your heart is beating 50 times per minute vs 65 you would burn fewer calories from that everyday.

[silverlightning]

So, you think the article is full of ****? Is T-Nation trustworthy, or a haven for broscience?

yes, article is chit. from the article. cardio doesn't make you fat, over eating will make you fat if you are inactive.

"All of my training was done to get ready to complete an Ironman, and all of my nutrition was eaten to fuel me for the workouts. At the time, my goal wasn't to lose fat, but I was still amazed at how little fat I lost.

I worked my way up to doing twenty hours of endurance training a week. I also kept track of every calorie I ate, making sure my nutrition was right on track. I thought I'd be able to eat whatever I wanted, but I couldn't. I had to watch myself to keep from gaining any weight, and I still maintained about 2,000 to 2,500 calories a day."

[RichardDavis]

See, I love my cardio. I don't feel healthy if I'm just lifting. And it's like meditation. Clears my mind. When I'm cutting, I do cardio three times a week. On my bulk, I'm doing it twice.

And I micromanage my calories and macros. So I guess I don't have anything to worry about.

Thanks, guys!

[highiso]

Nutrition/resistance training>cardio for fat loss every time.

[silverlightning]

See, I love my cardio. I don't feel healthy if I'm just lifting. And it's like meditation. Clears my mind. When I'm cutting, I do cardio three times a week. On my bulk, I'm doing it twice.

And I micromanage my calories and macros. So I guess I don't have anything to worry about.

Thanks, guys!

i was lifting and doing cardio but still gaining weight. why? because i was still over eating.

highiso hit the nail on the head

[67fastback]

Like a lot of postings, there is not really data or statistics to back it up.
Some truths mixed with a little controversy

Yes I have seen my wife's running group, and you will seen the majority of people there do not look like they are lean and athletic. Many I'd say are obese even.
They can run far. They burn through a lot of calories, no doubt.
I have seen a majority of people at the gym who are obviously continuously bulking and do not look lean, athletic. Strong yes.

The triathletes similar.

I've watched the average to above average people come across the finish line at a marathon run, and think to myself "they do not look healthy."

Back to the article

I'd say yes it is different for women than men. In the sense that women definitely have to work much harder to gain muscle mass. Adding muscle mass helps women a lot.

From my experience, having a good cardio base helps me in all aspects. Winter is real tough for me to get intense cardio and I miss it.

Not saying it's ideal, but my % looks something like this;
Strength 5-10 rep range 45%
Interval work, high rep, high intensity, calisthenics 45%
Cardio 10%

Diet is so important though.

With my wife's past trainer, I watched her improve her fitness, body shape and even running speed, simply by doing what I would loosely call a high intensity training routine (slash) crossfit. Add to that diet was really stressed as being important.

After having seen that program in action, I'd observe that there should have been a higher % of time spent on actual strength training, less on the high intensity program. She ended up with some bad upper body muscle tension, and I'd sat that was just due to the fact there was not enough emphasis on building strength, rest/recovery time.

Unfortunately in my opinion, it always boils down to diet. That's the toughest part for me. When I do a lot of cardio, I become an eating machine. Regular cardio doesn't make me fat, it just burns calories and makes me want to eat.

[JBWarren70]

Cardio is great for cardiovascular endurance/fitness. It is not a great method to lose fat. I don't think the wording is used correctly in that article.

There are studies out there on low-intensity cardio and metabolic adaptation. Dr Layne Norton and Dr Jake Wilson, both bodybuilders, conducted a study on cardio and its effect on fat loss.



The podcast *****://www.rxmuscle.com/2013-01-11-01-57-36/muscle-college/7694-muscle-college-3-12-13.html



The cliff notes:
Cardio: What is it?

Can aide in fat loss when combined with resistance training.

Prevents protein synthesis.

Blunts hypertrophy

Longer duration of cardio is detrimental to hypertrophy

Low intensity cardio blunts the size of muscle due to the need for muscle type for long duration training

Low intensity cardio can lower metabolism; metabolic adaption. Non-fat loss after long durations.

Cycling causes the least muscle loss compared to uphill walking; almost no muscle damage from cycling; easier to recover from cycling; less damage to muscle compared to running

Running stunts hip flexion; cycling benefits hip flexion which is used in performing squats

Ben Pakulski cycling cardio (Wingates); video from Dr. Jake Wilson’s lab
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVXLEUDpFtc

Doing sprints lose over 50% more body fat (6-30 sec sprints) compared to 1 hr walk at 3mph.

High intensity what you want to do, not low/moderate intensity; low intensity drops your metabolic rate; high intensity raises metabolism for up to 24 hrs after.

High intensity training is not catabolic; pump can be so extreme it can literally hurt (good thing), muscle pump (swelling) is anabolic; can looker better from performing high intensity sprint sessions than doing squats

Fasted cardio - overall fat loss effects, there is no difference; eat so that you have fuel for high intensity cardio; low intensity good for a short break from doing HI cardio

New to interval training - start with lower durations 4 sets @ 3 secs and increase as you can; 60 sec total duration will have a big impact on fat loss, 6x10sec and so on; rest 2-4 minutes between sets (when you are on the verge of catching your breath); cycling or sprints

1-2 times a week to start then work up to 4 times a week.

Train cardio as your muscle building; intense training to change your physique

The harder the work, the better the results





http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/layne.htm

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/jacob-wilson.html

[77Davis]

Here's how I see things. Regardless of the body's ability to adapt to your cardio workouts, you're still burning calories while you do it, and it still boils down to calories in vs calories out. To even mention that cardio makes you gain weight is pure and total heresy, but I don't think that is quite what she is saying. However, she did learn the hard way what seems to be pretty common knowledge around here.

Second, I have never, ever looked at long distance running/cardio as a means to improve body composition. I have always seen it as purely endurance training, and it is totally not needed unless you plan on having such a lifestyle. Think about a track athlete in comparison to a long distance runner. Think about what you commonly see as far as their training regimens go, and the body composition they have as a result. The body does adapt according to what its physical requirements are. So if there is a particular physique I would like to have, chances are REALLY high that I am going to listen to the person who has it.

[angrypenguin54]

Cardio isn't needed for only aesthetics as many with great physiques have proven. But I do believe it is needed for overall health. Some moderate cardio for 30 mins, 3x a week has shown to do all sorts of good things for your body. At the same time, once you starting pushing things past 1 hour you get diminishing returns and the Ultra stuff can even be harmful.

Depends on your goals and also if you enjoy cardio. Moderate cardio done 3 to 4 times a week will not hinder the goals of the majority of the people out there. It will increase your cardio capacity and may even increase work capacity for your lifting. It can actually help with recovery the day after a workout by keeping blood and fluid moving through your damaged tissue.

As far as appetite and food intake, it can be highly personal. You can and should definitely eat more if you are doing regular cardio which can be a good thing, but it can also increase appetite and lead people to overeat the deficit created by the cardio. Your 30 min run which burns 300 calories doesnt entitle you to eat a cheese pizza worth 2000 calories and I think this is where many fall down.

Most experts and people worth listening too will agree that the best programs that do incorporate cardio would have a mix of LISS and HIIT to target the different energy systems of the body. If you enjoy cardio, do it, just take the time to plan it as part of your program properly.

[drudixon]

Lot of ignorance in this thread. Liss has extraordinary protein requirements, and makes the cardiovascular system efficient. Great for heart health, not for burning calories. It works as a tool to burn calories, but in the long run is detrimental. We've beaten this to death.

[garuss]

it can also increase appetite and lead people to overeat the deficit created by the cardio. Your 30 min run which burns 300 calories doesnt entitle you to eat a cheese pizza worth 2000 calories and I think this is where many fall down.

that is the crux. many fall into the trap of overeating while doing regular LIIS. if one doesnt do that, it can certainly be a weight loss tool. It is very difficult though, it can raise your appetite way out of step with what you actually burned. Like comedian Jim gaffigan said, " I ran for 10 minuts and burned 50 cals, whats that, like, smelling a big mac?"

Ive been into moderate to long distance running on and off since I ran xc in high school 27 years ago. Im at my leanest when I run regularly. After a few years off I started again last summer. i keep it moderate now, just 30 mins once or twice a week. (however im off for a while due to achilles tendinitis as a result of the much-touted HIIT, was adding sprints like a 43 year old dumbass)

Besides running, i also lift 2-3 times a week and also go on moderate- to long- mountain bike rides twice a week, but to me thats kind of a mix of LISS, HIIT, and weight training, with plenty of breaks. Its so hard to not way overeat after a long bike ride!

[DuracellBunny]

Cycling causes the least muscle loss compared to uphill walking; almost no muscle damage from cycling; easier to recover from cycling; less damage to muscle compared to running

Swimming imo is better than cycling. When I run regularly, I go backwards re hypertrophy; when I cycle I pretty much stand still, but when I swim I can continue to make improvements.

My evidence is purely anecdotal, but when you take the logic of why cycling is better than running and continue the argument to swimming, the logic is internally consistent with my argument.

[uforce]

See, I love my cardio. I don't feel healthy if I'm just lifting. And it's like meditation. Clears my mind. When I'm cutting, I do cardio three times a week. On my bulk, I'm doing it twice.

And I micromanage my calories and macros. So I guess I don't have anything to worry about.

Thanks, guys!

if you're doing all this, why would you let an article on tnation bother you? cardio isn't going to make you fat. that's absurd.

[RichardDavis]

There's just so much conflicting information out there.

[EjnarKolinkar]

There's just so much conflicting information out there.

When in doubt use common sense

[Beastlito]

The reason why some get fat eventhough they do ****loads of cardio is because they over estimate how many calories they actually burned.

Cardio or any other kind of training really doesn't burn a whole lot of calories. Some people seem to think that because they do a bit of cardio, they can eat whatever they want for the rest of the day.

[Gabbar99]

What do you guys make of this?

First of all, a bit of a pet peeve. A lot of people lift and run. Runners run and "cross-train". Lifters lift and "do cardio". I don't believe in "cross-training" or "doing cardio". I lift and I run.

I'm living proof you can run a lot and be fat. Running or other "cardio" doesn't magically make you lean. But all top runners, all of them, are super lean. And in my observation, runners as a group are leaner than lifters. The casual runners at the local 5k include some flabby folks, but fewer flabbies than the casual lifters at the gym.

Leanness in runners is not the goal, it's a result and a means to an end, so they're not sending each other photos of their abs. Runners who "cross-train" at the gym talk about the fat out-of-shape lifters they see there. The idea that running makes you fat is just as silly as the idea that lifting make you fat. Eating too much makes you fat.

Maybe running hard intervals (wait, I forgot, we need to call it HIIT now even though it was done forever before that term was invented) is more efficient in burning fat. So what? You know what's more efficient for burning off that bag of potato chips? Not eating that bag of potato chips.

I've seen this article before and a lot like it. She doesn't get it. Has she looked at the top ironman competitors? I don't have enough posts to post links yet, but they are super lean. Matter of fact, I just read a book that claimed that endurance athletes are "the leanest people on earth". Millions of starving people and some bodybuilders might argue, but good endurance athletes are extremely lean. Being flabby while training is her fault, not the fault of the type of training.

[strongpath]

First of all, a bit of a pet peeve. A lot of people lift and run. Runners run and "cross-train". Lifters lift and "do cardio". I don't believe in "cross-training" or "doing cardio". I lift and I run.

I'm living proof you can run a lot and be fat. Running or other "cardio" doesn't magically make you lean. But all top runners, all of them, are super lean. And in my observation, runners as a group are leaner than lifters. The casual runners at the local 5k include some flabby folks, but fewer flabbies than the casual lifters at the gym.

Leanness in runners is not the goal, it's a result and a means to an end, so they're not sending each other photos of their abs. Runners who "cross-train" at the gym talk about the fat out-of-shape lifters they see there. The idea that running makes you fat is just as silly as the idea that lifting make you fat. Eating too much makes you fat.

Maybe running hard intervals (wait, I forgot, we need to call it HIIT now even though it was done forever before that term was invented) is more efficient in burning fat. So what? You know what's more efficient for burning off that bag of potato chips? Not eating that bag of potato chips.

I've seen this article before and a lot like it. She doesn't get it. Has she looked at the top ironman competitors? I don't have enough posts to post links yet, but they are super lean. Matter of fact, I just read a book that claimed that endurance athletes are "the leanest people on earth". Millions of starving people and some bodybuilders might argue, but good endurance athletes are extremely lean. Being flabby while training is her fault, not the fault of the type of training.

If you want to dig a little deeper into the cardio/nutrition/fat connection, Dr. Peter Attia and his website the Eating Academy has a lot of good content. What I like about him is that as an engineer and a medical doctor, his research methodology and testing was pretty rigorous, not broscience. Worth a read if you are not already aware of his work. I don't lift and run. But I lift and xc ski. From December to March I train with "endurance athletes." They are predominantly long distance cyclists/nordic skiers. They want to do their "sport." They find me odd because I enjoy lifting. They find excuses to do anything but lift. They carb load, use gels on long distance training and obsess about bonking or hitting the wall etc. These non-stop cardio, conditioning folks still also complain about their flab and do stupid detoxes in January. There are lifters who get lean and never do cardio. There are runners who are lean and never lift weights. There are "fat" versions of both. The key is nutrition and what you put in your mouth every day, multiple times a day, that will either advance or undermine what you are trying to achieve with your training, whether its 5 or 15 hours a week.

[x-trainer ben]

What do you guys make of this?

http://www.t-nation.com/training/fin...-cardio-coffin

It was an interesting look into what worked FOR HER! We all are different in our workout history, muscle mass, cardio respiratory fitness, and dietary needs. With that said her results( not sure of her age, another variable/hormones) may or may not apply to each one of us. Yes there are some general dietary rules that apply, but to get abs requires lots of tweaks.
Distance runners typically love the "runners high" and time to think out life solutions and don't run to get slim like so many think. Long bike rides are generally to see "the town" not to ride like Lance and be skinny. I would say try out her solutions if you are stuck but otherwise keep at it because lifting over the long haul is what gives results.

[mikenorwood961]

It was an interesting look into what worked FOR HER!

This!

In 2013 I ran a half-marathon 10 times, and ran an average of about 70 miles per month in the warmer months. I ate huge amounts of (mostly) healthy food and dropped down to 155 lbs. I never counted calories, I never bothered with portion control, I just made sure I had no junk food in the house. I didn't quite have a six-pack, but it was starting to form and I didn't work out my abs so I couldn't really expect a six-pack anyways. Look at my profile pic - it's two years later, a lot less running and I've gained nearly 30 lbs. For ME, cardio was the key to a dramatic weight loss.

[Gabbar99]

The reason why some get fat eventhough they do ****loads of cardio is because they over estimate how many calories they actually burned.

Cardio or any other kind of training really doesn't burn a whole lot of calories. Some people seem to think that because they do a bit of cardio, they can eat whatever they want for the rest of the day.

Yes. And even if you do calculate it, you have to ground-truth it. This is a common topic among runners. They track everything in myfitnesspal but they don't lose as much as the program tells them they should be losing. So, either adjust the calories burned -- you don't have to accept the default from the built-in calculators -- or adjust your goal. If you set it for losing 1 lb a week, -500 cals per day, and you're not losing weight after a few weeks, either lower the calories burned with exercise, lower your BMR, or just bump your goal to -1000 cals per day and see what happens for the next few weeks.

[uforce]

a lot of over thinking ITT

[x-trainer ben]

a lot of over thinking ITT

That was deep, care to type a little more?

[uforce]

That was deep, care to type a little more?

didn't mean to make you butthurt. the comment wasn't directed to any single person. i think it's just too much over thinking. like i said earlier, if OP is doing as he says, there's no reason to think cardio/running is going to create fat gain.

[x-trainer ben]

didn't mean to make you butthurt. the comment wasn't directed to any single person. i think it's just too much over thinking. like i said earlier, if OP is doing as he says, there's no reason to think cardio/running is going to create fat gain.

Not "hurt" at all i was just trying to follow your logic, after over thinking. I was on the edge of my seat waiting for some super duper explanation and must have missed it