Michael Brown / Darren Wilson Decision has me worried

[metallicide]

Not far from stl but live a 98% or higher white population and nearly everyone owns guns. Was also a huge KKK town for a long time. Nick name is Klandalia. (No racist just makes me less worried about riots and such)

[veggie530]

Know how I know you've never taken a history or economics class?

But he has blogs, damn it.

[Hussar1]

I get what you're saying, I really do. Even about the intel. More often than not, you aren't going to walking into a situation where you just have to play it by ear. There's going to be a specified direction to your presence, and you'll have a leader giving orders in the even that you deviate from your specified direction.

I'm sorry, but you're still slightly off. The very nature of warfare, x2 in urban environments against insurgent forces, is almost always playing it by ear. You may take down house one, full of retards, then have to clear house 2, which could have nothing more than a family inside. And you can't jack them up, because it's against ROEs.

And that's making it easy for you, IE: using my experience active duty. My time contracting was a whole different fukkin ball game.

[mCheech]

Ridiculously supported statement.

Educate me, since I seem to be one of those misguided individuals contributing to the problem.

I didn't say you were contributing to anything, but your opinions on warfare are seriously misguided and naive. Think about it this way..

-In warfare, it is EXPECTED to find people who are trying to harm you, yet they have a strict ROE.
-It is not even remotely common for a police officer to be fired at, yet they have a fairly loose ROE (most go through their careers never having to draw or fire their weapon)

That is the point the veteran was trying to make, or at least that's how I interpreted it.

[Benihanas]

I'm sorry, but you're still slightly off. The very nature of warfare, x2 in urban environments against insurgent forces, is almost always playing it by ear. You may take down house one, full of retards, then have to clear house 2, which could have nothing more than a family inside. And you can't jack them up, because it's against ROEs.

And that's making it easy for you, IE: using my experience active duty. My time contracting was a whole different fukkin ball game.

Even if I credit what you're saying as being comparable with police officer situations, you have to realize that cops are dealing with legal citizens who know our law and speak our language. You're dealing with foreign people who don't know you, how you operate, or your language.

There are different systems of accountability for the law vs. for soldiers, different courts, etc. There are differences. The situations, yes, have similar threads and you might even be able to go so far as to say they are put in the same or similar circumstances, but there are little nuanced differences that play a fairly significant role as to how they might be unique from one another.


-In warfare, it is EXPECTED to find people who are trying to harm you, yet they have a strict ROE.
-It is not even remotely common for a police officer to be fired at, yet they have a fairly loose ROE (most go through their careers never having to draw or fire their weapon)


At this most basic point, you both are correct. The situation is not this basic, however, and the issue there lies more with the accountability systems/protocols in place.

I've never been in war, especially not modern warfare, so you might be more correct, but I'm not stupid, and have heard plenty of first hand accounts to understand a few things. I am willing to admit that they share similar threads, but as I said before, the operational procedures are different, and this just shows, like you said, that cops need to change either their procedures or their selection and training process.

[Ayz33]

my body is ready to be called off standby..no need to fear StL brahs ayz33 is here

[cadetduke]

Former west county now south county brah here. Don't give one chit.

[jubjubthecow]

OP, burn down the unemployment office durning the chaos and see how long the riots last?

[velvetmudhole]

The St Louis metropolitan area is really Fd up. The actual city's population is 318,172 with whites only making up 42.7%. Most of the blacks are in the northern half of the city...highway 40/64 is like a literal division line. Once you get outside the city into the county or suburbs it's a lot of white people

Clayton, just right outside the city
Median household income: $106,458
Median house or condo value: $635,606
Median contract rent: $868
Unemployment: 1.9%
Residents below the poverty level: 4.2%
Median resident age: 41.7

Ladue:
Median household income: $160,595
Median house or condo value: $676,435
Median contract rent: $1,724
Unemployment: 2.4%
Residents below the poverty level: 1.2%
Median resident age: 48.7

Town and Country
Median household income: $164,205
Median house or condo value: $620,768
Median contract rent: over $2,000
Unemployment: 1.8%
Residents below the poverty level: 5.4%
Median resident age: 46

[Bushmaster]

Former west county now south county brah here. Don't give one chit.

About what? Michael Brown? Or rioters destroying St Louis?

[cadetduke]

About what? Michael Brown? Or rioters destroying St Louis?

About the whole situation. Tired of fcking hearing about it everyday here.

[eatdapupu]

i hope they livestream the po-po tear gassing those ghetto thugs. lol

[velvetmudhole]

They can tear gas all they want. This chit is gonna linger for a long ass time

[desslok]

The worst part is that Sublime won't be around to make a song about it. RIP Bradley.

[pengh]

surprised people are still going at it. thought this sh*t would only last a couple days.

[hawkrock60]

1. Cops are trained to be "skittish". It's not a sign of them looking for an excuse to use their gun, it's the fact that they are literally dealing with criminals, law breakers, people who have REASONS to avoid cops and want to harm them (albeit not good ones) and therefore they are taught to practice vigilance and awareness. They're also taught it can come from anywhere, no matter how unsuspecting a situation seems. They're trying to stay alive, idiot.

They have no more right to stay alive than any of their victims.

2. There's a certain understood manner for dealing with an authority. Last time I checked, police were authorities. It's pretty fukkin stupid to swiftly move at all around them, much less do something like swiftly reach into your pockets. Again, it's the safety thing. They're trained that any situation can devolve into madness, so they try to control the situation as much as possible to ensure EVERYONE'S safety, not just the officer's.

Police are not legitimate authorities. From whence do they derive their authority? Voting? Badges? If it's wrong for me to kick in your door and incarcerate you for committing a "crime" wherein you harmed no one, then it's just as immoral for a cop to do so. They have legitimate authority to stop someone from committing an actual crime, just like you or I do. If they stuck to that, there wouldn't be a problem. Unfortunately, they have busied themselves with enforcing the mandates of legislative busybodies who want to write all kinds of coercive laws, "for our safety" of course.

3. You're not a coward, but you're also not someone who's daily job is to face criminals, you're also not constantly put into a position where you're thinking "could I be harmed?" Statistics might favor the cops over the garbagemen, but you're an idiot if you think being a cop is less dangerous.

Being a cop is less dangerous. And you're an idiot if you think that cops face criminals daily. Most of the people they face are not.

I know this is tough for CT people like yourself to produce, but do you have any states to back these claims up?

Which claims? About the most dangerous jobs?

http://www.cbsnews.com/media/nations...geous-jobs/10/

Or pick your own source here:
*****://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&rlz=1C1VFKB_enUS601US601&ion=1&espv=2&ie=U TF-8#safe=off&q=most+dangerous+jobs+in+the+us

As far as stats about cop involved deaths, no. The reason is that every killing is different, and they run the gamut from:
-straight up murder
-an unjustifiable killing
-a mostly justifiable killing, wherein other alternatives to ending the confrontation would have been better
-a completely justified killing

Short of doing an analysis on each and every person killed by police (something like 500+/year), an easily digestible stat would be hard to come by. You'd also have to look at whether the law they were in the process of enforcing/investigating is a just law to begin with, and in a lot of cases I would contend that the law shouldn't be a law at all, e.g. Jaywalking, drug use, etc. I could provide plenty of examples of straight up murder, but suffice to say that there are too many of them. 50,000 SWAT raids per year and the War on Drugs have resulted in a lot of innocent lives lost.

This one tells me you don't have any real experience talking to officers. Most of them these days are scared to move, as the public will sue for anything.

The lack of logic behind these statements is baffling.

Except for those who aren't scared at all because they know that even if they kill someone they shouldn't have, they'll get a two week vacation and be back on the job with no consequences.

The problem with cops is the same as the problem with politicians and corporations. These entities are not innately evil (well, maybe politicians are), but when you remove accountability for abuses, abuses will occur. This isn't a conspiracy theory. In fact, I can't stand CTers because despite all the examples of real life abuses and injustice, they feel the need to invent them.

[hawkrock60]

But he has blogs, damn it.

Do you know who William N. Grigg is? He knows his chit.

[Tweedurr]

Stay safe OP. Seriously.

Stay safe St.Louis brahs

The true alphas of the LA riots right here.

[velvetmudhole]

Stay safe St.Louis brahs

I just noticed something....is there a store called "The Boys" in the background?

[veggie530]

Do you know who William N. Grigg is? He knows his chit.

You're a real potato, you know that? All your babbling about cops but one thing really caught my eye. You cited how their job is not that dangerous, which I find funny -- because most people like you cite that their operating procedure (being rough on people, handcuffing them face down, drawing their guns for every situation, essentially taking no chances, etc.) is over the top and unnecessary due to the lack of danger in their job. But with the data you cite, it seems to be that their standard operating procedure may be the exact reason we don't see more dangers to cop reach statistical fruition. Just a thought.

[hawkrock60]

You're a real potato, you know that? All your babbling about cops but one thing really caught my eye. You cited how their job is not that dangerous, which I find funny -- because most people like you cite that their operating procedure (being rough on people, handcuffing them face down, drawing their guns for every situation, essentially taking no chances, etc.) is over the top and unnecessary due to the lack of danger in their job. But with the data you cite, it seems to be that their standard operating procedure may be the exact reason we don't see more dangers to cop reach statistical fruition. Just a thought.

Except that this is what I actually said:

Their job is statistically less dangerous than that of garbage collector, and garbage collectors don't get to shoot everything that scares them.

I don't cite their operating proceducre as being over the top or unnecessary due to lack of danger in their job (I think they are in the top twenty), I cite it because they have no right to be treating people that way unless they are enforcing laws that I think everyone would agree should exist (robbery, rape, assault, murder, etc.). Their standard operating procedure has evolved from the state of affairs where they are in the business of enforcing too many ridiculous laws. If their job entailed only going after true criminals, they wouldn't find themselves getting shot in situations where the initial contact was over drugs, jaywalking, speeding, etc.

If you're going to disagree, that's fine. But when you dishonestly mischaracterize my words, it undermines your claim to be debating in good faith.

Furthermore, a URL with which you disagree does not undermine the credibility of the information contained therein.

[leakypipe23]

Which claims? About the most dangerous jobs?

http://www.cbsnews.com/media/nations...geous-jobs/10/

Or pick your own source here:
*****://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&rlz=1C1VFKB_enUS601US601&ion=1&espv=2&ie=U TF-8#safe=off&q=most+dangerous+jobs+in+the+us

As far as stats about cop involved deaths, no. The reason is that every killing is different, and they run the gamut from:
-straight up murder
-an unjustifiable killing
-a mostly justifiable killing, wherein other alternatives to ending the confrontation would have been better
-a completely justified killing

Short of doing an analysis on each and every person killed by police (something like 500+/year), an easily digestible stat would be hard to come by. You'd also have to look at whether the law they were in the process of enforcing/investigating is a just law to begin with, and in a lot of cases I would contend that the law shouldn't be a law at all, e.g. Jaywalking, drug use, etc. I could provide plenty of examples of straight up murder, but suffice to say that there are too many of them. 50,000 SWAT raids per year and the War on Drugs have resulted in a lot of innocent lives lost.

Except for those who aren't scared at all because they know that even if they kill someone they shouldn't have, they'll get a two week vacation and be back on the job with no consequences.

The problem with cops is the same as the problem with politicians and corporations. These entities are not innately evil (well, maybe politicians are), but when you remove accountability for abuses, abuses will occur. This isn't a conspiracy theory. In fact, I can't stand CTers because despite all the examples of real life abuses and injustice, they feel the need to invent them.

So you can't produce evidence to support your claims. Got it.

[veggie530]

Except that this is what I actually said: I don't cite their operating proceducre as being over the top or unnecessary due to lack of danger in their job (I think they are in the top twenty), I cite it because they have no right to be treating people that way unless they are enforcing laws that I think everyone would agree should exist (robbery, rape, assault, murder, etc.). Their standard operating procedure has evolved from the state of affairs where they are in the business of enforcing too many ridiculous laws. If their job entailed only going after true criminals, they wouldn't find themselves getting shot in situations where the initial contact was over drugs, jaywalking, speeding, etc.

If you're going to disagree, that's fine. But when you dishonestly mischaracterize my words, it undermines your claim to be debating in good faith.

Furthermore, a URL with which you disagree does not undermine the credibility of the information contained therein.

agreed with the bold, also

because most people like you

I didn't mischaracterize your words, you're welcome.

[lazi]

#PantsUpDontLoot billboard crowd-funding lol



http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/pa...billboard#home

[hawkrock60]

So you can't produce evidence to support your claims. Got it.

I presented evidence to support at least one, and the other, well, I never said that more cop killings are unjustified than otherwise. I specifically avoided saying so because I don't know how many are justified and which are not. But at a rate of about 500+/yr, does it justify heavy-handed tactics if 251 are killed in justifiable situations, and 249 are not? The 249 deaths would still be unjustifiable.

I simply pointed out that cops kill a lot of people who they had no business killing. That isn't a statistic. That's a fact. Why would you need a stat for that? Are you denying that cops kill people when they shouldn't?

here's an optometrist killed for gambling
http://reason.com/archives/2011/01/17/justice-for-sal
police with an invalid warrant kill a 7 y/o girl and blame her grandmother
http://www.policestateusa.com/2014/a...ey-jones-raid/
Police lie about smelling meth, kill 80 year old man
http://dailycaller.com/2013/10/16/po...-find-no-meth/
Police kill grandmother, plant drugs on her after the fact
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathryn_Johnston_shooting
Police beat man to death while he begs them to stop
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Kelly_Thomas

Why do you need stats to verify that this stuff happens?

[hawkrock60]

agreed with the bold, also



I didn't mischaracterize your words, you're welcome.

That's not the part to which I was referring. You said I claimed that a cop's job is not that dangerous. What I actually said is that a cops job is less dangerous than that of a garbage collector. Same is true for pilots, loggers, oil and gas workers, truck drivers, and several other occupations that amount to millions of jobs, all more dangerous than a cops.

[headinahole]

#PantsUpDontLoot billboard crowd-funding lol



http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/pa...billboard#home

Das it mane

[NoPropo]

Do you know who William N. Grigg is? He knows his chit.

Reps for the aware of Grigg. He is awesome. I am with you 100% on all of your arguments ITT.

I did see that Brown's parents are speaking to the UN sometime soon, the committee on torture...GTFO of here with that chit.

wtf?

I hope enough people realize that there are most likely Marxists and other far left operators organizing these riots and protests. Nothing about this is organic. Unfortunately the media is sympathetic to them and will and make it seem as if this "downtrodden" minorities fighting back.

agree 100% see quote above. F the UN.

The rioters/protesters (whatever) are using the wrong person for their platform for injustice and now everyone in St Louis will be a target. There is already a strange increase in violence and people getting shot at stop lights and other similar acts. Fuark, bruhs, this is going to get really phuking ugly. It will be an "uncivil" war.

agree. Have you seen this yet?


Michael Brown's Mother Named As Robbery Attacker
Violent ransacking prompted by sale of commemorative goods
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documen...e-brawl-687543

There are much better examples of police violence than Michael Brown and Darren Wilson. It actually white washes the severity of the REAL problem w/ the militarization of police, ie. the police state.
OP, I wouldn't bug out if I were you, unless absolutely necessary- you could be looted. I'd stay well armed and inside.
Good luck, pls. keep us updated.

[Winky69]

LMAO @ some ppl itt sugarcoating this. The real reason why this rioting is occuring is cause the kid is BLACK. If a white kid was killed literally nobody would give a fuk. The real reason why everybody in Ferguson is going crazy is because a WHITE cop killed a BLACK "kid" and the liberal media and black community of ferguson are taking advantage of it. These people aren't even protesting, they are just rioting and looting. LA riots all over again

[leakypipe23]

I presented evidence to support at least one, and the other, well, I never said that more cop killings are unjustified than otherwise. I specifically avoided saying so because I don't know how many are justified and which are not. But at a rate of about 500+/yr, does it justify heavy-handed tactics if 251 are killed in justifiable situations, and 249 are not? The 249 deaths would still be unjustifiable.

I simply pointed out that cops kill a lot of people who they had no business killing. That isn't a statistic. That's a fact. Why would you need a stat for that? Are you denying that cops kill people when they shouldn't?

here's an optometrist killed for gambling
http://reason.com/archives/2011/01/17/justice-for-sal
police with an invalid warrant kill a 7 y/o girl and blame her grandmother
http://www.policestateusa.com/2014/a...ey-jones-raid/
Police lie about smelling meth, kill 80 year old man
http://dailycaller.com/2013/10/16/po...-find-no-meth/
Police kill grandmother, plant drugs on her after the fact
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathryn_Johnston_shooting
Police beat man to death while he begs them to stop
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Kelly_Thomas

Why do you need stats to verify that this stuff happens?

Takes 5 examples, generalizes it to every police officer is a psychopath. Strong logic.