Butt Wink

[EjnarKolinkar]

I seem to have got rid of most of my butt wink. Used to be bad.


I recently watched this and got some lulz from some of the discussion on internet squatting. In all seriousness I wish I found this years ago. I wound up piecing this together from advice, watching people who could squat. People vary a lot in their mechanics though. It's hard sometimes to see your squat in another person's. sometimes.





*****://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_Tb-2HZuN4









Maybe this is helpful to someone, or maybe we argue about butt wink.

[KeithTheSnake]

Thank you for posting this informative video. It's especially timely for me. Just coming back from a layoff due, probably, to butt wink.

[HealthNut12]

This video is really helpful. Extremely informative, thanks for sharing.

I love squatting and as I work my weight up I'll have to check out his other videos on abdominal bracing and especially glute activation. So many cues!

[LordGrover]

[Jodie10]

Interesting.. how are people eliminating that while doing ATG squats?

[Requitor]

Can't see link here at work, what the hell is butt wink?

[NorwichGrad]

Great topic and great vid, Ejnar!

Interesting.. how are people eliminating that while doing ATG squats?

Like Chris in the vid said, there is no need to go ATG. Unless the lifter’s intent is to go ATG so that he or she can post on fakebook, “yeah, brahs, I can ATG squat” it serves no general purpose. Breaking below parallel is good enough.

HOWEVER, if the lifter is an Olympic lifter, then it is incumbent upon him or her to go ATG.. And the reason for this is carryover to the snatch and clean.

To answer your question, how are people eliminating butt wink while doing ATG?

The answer is very simple and it’s common in the weightlifting community. CALVES..

(Note: This logic only works on high bar squatting.)

Calf tightness typically stops the knees from travelling forwards. The further forwards the knees are, the further forward the hips are. You with me so far?

The further forward the hips are, the more vertical the back angle is. The more vertical the back angle, the easier it is to maintain a tight flat (or arched) lower back. Knowwhatimsayin?


But conversely, the further back the hips are, the more forward lean the back has, and the closer to end range of motion the hamstrings get, pulling your hips into posterior rotation, and pulling your lumbar into flexion.

Very flexible hamstrings allow you to maintain lumbar extension with a lot of forward lean in your back.

In my personal experience and from what I have seen firsthand on all my lifters, the hip flexors are not a factor. Tight hip flexors pull you into anterior pelvic tilt. "Butt wink" is when your pelvis tilts in the exact opposite direction that tight hip flexors pull. (I have lots of vid of myself and others to prove this. And I have heard other WLers confirm this.)

So if you brahs are high bar squatter, and if you must go ATG, make sure you stretch your calves..

Otherwise, listen to Chris in the vid.

[Frnkd]

Can't see link here at work, what the hell is butt wink?

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/beat...your-back.html

[JRT6]

I go ATG and it has nothing to do with FB and I kinda think that "you don't need" can apply to squatting in general. And for any other personal preference for that matter. Think about it why are you squatting 400 when 399 is good enough? Ah whatever.


I also think the butt wink is over rated and not insurmountable. Check out Donnie Thompson

[EjnarKolinkar]

I also think the butt wink is over rated.

So do lots of people. And yet lumbar spine and SI joint problems take out lifters all the time around this site. I'm anatomically capable of a full squat, high bar without a butt wink, and therefore do not accept my weakness and previous poor squat mechanics as an excuse to have one. That is just my situation, I get that everybody isn't the same.

Can't see link here at work, what the hell is butt wink?

It's when at the bottom of a squat your butt disappears, (posterior pelvic tilt), and you get some lumbar flexion, (your spine bends) which loads your discs more heavily to the front. It also tends to tension the sacrotuberous ligament which can cause a host of issues. There are the strongest ligaments in the body, but with posterior tilt and tension and a moment of uneven loading can be stressed. Which can cause a host of problems with the SI joints, low back, etc.

Great topic and great vid, Ejnar!

Myron huge write up on high bar!

[JRT6]

So do lots of people. And yet lumbar spine and SI joint problems take out lifters all the time around this site.

And so does benching for many members' AC joints so are we going to hammer those too or do we use the same logic, fix the problem or find something, that we use for benching on the ATG squat? My post was a response to the glib generalization that was made. Yes if you're bending over like a good morning you shouldn't be squatting that low and or fixing the problem.

I ATG (off an 7" box) because I do movements in my sport that requires me to stand up that way and also simply because it keeps the weight down. I have more of an issue in my squat training with over all total load than I do with my depth (now that I learned to squat deep decently).

[Jtbny]

I go ATG and it has nothing to do with FB and I kinda think that "you don't need" can apply to squatting in general. And for any other personal preference for that matter. Think about it why are you squatting 400 when 399 is good enough? Ah whatever.


I also think the butt wink is over rated and not insurmountable. Check out Donnie Thompson

You go ATG because ,as you said, your specific goal (being able to perform at your sport) benefits from you do so and you want to keep the weights lower. If your goal is strength and/or size than going below parallel is not needed. Also, is squatting "needed"? No, but if you choose to squat Id think you want to perform it in a way that helps you towards your goal. ATG for most is not that way unless you just like to tell everyone you can go ATG at which point I'd call BS. Ymmv

No differance in 399 or 400 except for easier tracking and plate loading. There is a differance between 390 and 400 when doing reps as the load grows with each rep/set completed. Increasing the load helps with progression, which for many of us, is our goal.

Agree with buttwink being overrated for most but it is problematic for some. In fact I think most of the critique and "cues" that get thrown out are static and only serve to clutter the mind. (Except for a stone cold noob leading the movement)

[sy2502]

Great topic, I am the worst squatter in the world, so anything helps.
Just wanted to throw out there that the last exercise in the video on the ground, kneeling with legs apart is what dislocated my kneecap last year. I cringed when I saw it.

[olyw8lifter]

Great topic and great vid, Ejnar!

Excellent post Joel!! Now, back to stretching my calves!!

IMHO, although you should aim to remove as much "butt wink" as possible, some people will never be able to eliminate it totally due to body structure.

[EjnarKolinkar]

I ATG (off an 7" box) because I do movements in my sport that requires me to stand up that way and also simply because it keeps the weight down. I have more of an issue in my squat training with over all total load than I do with my depth (now that I learned to squat deep decently).

Yeah, I know you are good at what you do and train for a sport. Much respect.

Agree with buttwink being overrated for most but it is problematic for some. In fact I think most of the critique and "cues" that get thrown out are static and only serve to clutter the mind. (Except for a stone cold noob leading the movement)

Thanks for your thoughts man.

I couldn't rate it either.

I do have to say I was only interested in myself and my problems. My squat sucked, my lumbar/ pelvis area hurt after squatting, and I wasn't progressing.

Ill definitely concede my results may not be typical. Ill also say the results of elite strength athletes aren't typical.

I like arguing about butt wink, and neutral spine. But Ill avoid that, maybe.

I do think I will just post the things I did, what worked and what didn't.

Im fine if this is viewed as only useful to noobs.

Its going to take a while to compile. And Im sure somebody will come along with advice and that Im doing it wrong. Which is super.

I cant learn anything if I cant accept that I may in fact be a clown. Im always ready for that eventuality

*Id also rather have a thread to post about squatting in for a few weeks than jump in on the hammeroids thrad.

[Jtbny]

Yeah, I know you are good at what you do and train for a sport. Much respect.



Thanks for your thoughts man.

I couldn't rate it either.

I do have to say I was only interested in myself and my problems. My squat sucked, my lumbar/ pelvis area hurt after squatting, and I wasn't progressing.

Ill definitely concede my results may not be typical. Ill also say the results of elite strength athletes aren't typical.

I like arguing about butt wink, and neutral spine. But Ill avoid that, maybe.

I do think I will just post the things I did, what worked and what didn't.

Im fine if this is viewed as only useful to noobs.

Its going to take a while to compile. And Im sure somebody will come along with advice and that Im doing it wrong. Which is super.

I cant learn anything if I cant accept that I may in fact be a clown. Im always ready for that eventuality

*Id also rather have a thread to post about squatting in for a few weeks than jump in on the hammeroids thrad.

Robert, my response wasn't intended to invalidate what you posted. On the contrary I agree that some do have a serious issue with buttwink and should address it. I know that you have worked hard on your squat and continue to tweak your form to avoid injury and improve. My apologies if I came across wrong.

I get a little sensative when I talk about squat cues ect. Unfortunately so many people parrot what they read and hear without actually "doing" it that it drives me nuts. It leads others to spin their wheels with squat cue confusion Buttwink gets thrown around like its gospel kinda like the knee traveling over the toes cue. No regards to people's unique anatomy at all. Guess that's where my "overrated" comment came from.

I should know better than to get involved in squat discussions

/slowly backs fat ass out of thread....

[EjnarKolinkar]

Robert, my response wasn't intended to invalidate what you posted. On the contrary I agree that some do have a serious issue with buttwink and should address it. I know that you have worked hard on your squat and continue to tweak your form to avoid injury and improve. My apologies if I came across wrong.

I get a little sensative when I talk about squat cues ect. Unfortunately so many people parrot what they read and hear without actually "doing" it that it drives me nuts. It leads others to spin their wheels with squat cue confusion Buttwink gets thrown around like its gospel kinda like the knee traveling over the toes cue. No regards to people's unique anatomy at all. Guess that's where my "overrated" comment came from.

I should know better than to get involved in squat discussions

/slowly backs fat ass out of thread....

No way, I never would think that. Just glad you shared your thouhts. Probably should have made a second post on my why I was trying to fix. But phone posting on lunch...

I agree on your synopsis of too many squat cues and parroting that can go on.

One of the reasons I really liked this vid. Other than the potshot at internet squatters, seemed like this vid didnt take too seriously the one size fits all of so many squat cue vids.

Plus I loved the doing it wrong doing it right bits. Ive always been a pretty visual learner.

[EjnarKolinkar]

Great topic, I am the worst squatter in the world, so anything helps.
Just wanted to throw out there that the last exercise in the video on the ground, kneeling with legs apart is what dislocated my kneecap last year. I cringed when I saw it.

So you were in tactical frog mode and your kneecap just popped off. OMG, *cringe*

Did it take long to heal?

[drudixon]

My apt is why I don't butt wink

[acrawlingchaos]

I'll throw my 02. in.

Buttwink is potentially harmful if you are using tendon reflex to come out of the whole. I'm confident this is where a vast majority of injuries occur with BW. If the movement is controlled, or it's not severe it may not be an issue. If you tend to get aches and pains chronically through the back and hips, you most certainly want to address something.

Regardless, if you do have buttwink, there are ways to address flexibility to improve.

[drudixon]

Oh, btw, most saying ATG aren't. ATG is heels to ass. One should be able to box squat to a plate. That said, aside from the stretch it offers, I don't think going that low offers much benefit.

[NorwichGrad]

For you guys who mentioned ‘too many cues,’ you’re absolutely spot on. Cues are supposed to help the lifter move correctly. Instead, what ends up happening is the sea of information clutters their brain and they screw up instead.

So cues really should depend on the lifter, and not the coach or trainer.

Knowledge should NOT be imposed; rather, it should be imparted.



a) Both lifter and coach should understand the final goal.
b) Coach should allow the lifter to do what he / she thinks is right.
c) Tweak the movement.
d) Coach should ask lifter what he / she is THINKING.
e) Once the coach understands that individual lifter’s mindset, his/her personalized cues can then be developed.

[acrawlingchaos]

For you guys who mentioned ‘too many cues,’.

Too many cues is really only an issue when you have too many trainers.

[NorwichGrad]

Too many cues is really only an issue when you have too many trainers.

Indeed.. That's why asking for form feedback on public forums could be a dangerous slope sometimes. (no racist)

[acrawlingchaos]

Indeed.. That's why asking for form feedback on public forums could be a dangerous slope sometimes. (no racist)

Gotta learn somewhere... and ya can't beat free (especially if that's all you can afford).

Diet is no different. Even with all the science available, conflicting input between two different coaches with two different approaches can result in a miserable experience or worse, failure. Like anything else, it comes down to separating the wheat from the chaff when deciding what advice to take.

[Flounderbout]

It leads others to spin their wheels with squat cue confusion
...

[NorwichGrad]

Gotta learn somewhere... and ya can't beat free (especially if that's all you can afford).

Diet is no different. Even with all the science available, conflicting input between two different coaches with two different approaches can result in a miserable experience or worse, failure. Like anything else, it comes down to separating the wheat from the chaff when deciding what advice to take.

true dat..

I think for the most part the folks who provide feedback are well-intentioned. I don't think I have ever seen anyone post something that would deliberately hurt the OP. Maybe every now and then I'd see some bro-science. But generally, people are just trying to be helpful.

But you're right, though.. You ask three different trainers / coaches, you get three different answers.

[acrawlingchaos]

No problem brotato... all you gotta do is

Sit back in the hole
put your elbows in the pocket
Brace chest up
Hold breath, blow on up
Pin the shoulders
wrap the bar
Spread the floor
Push your knees out
push through the heels
and DRIVE DRIVE DRIVE



all set?

[EjnarKolinkar]

Ha, yep can definitely say based on my experiences I wish Id just hired a competent coach. Not that I havent had a great experience with form checks.

I just think if someone struggles for too long, they are doing it wrong.

The majority of my problems were due to poor technique.
And crappy mind muscle connection. Not that there were not other factors.

I owe a lot of the clues that got me to a "OK" squat to form checks. Never had any "Bad" advice, with the possible exception of offers of lots of low bar cues, I squat high bar.


I think that is a distiction somebody should get set in their mind and exclaim before posting a form check as a noob. Its hard to tell sometimes when looking at the lifter from the side. Pick one and let the world know. I know ACC excluded with secret hybrid status.

I know Ive watched guys squat only to ask months later, "Hey bro you low bar?" Because the vids all from the side.

[phamine]

I wished I had some knowledgeable and experienced people at the gym I go to. Most of the information I use for training are from forums and the internet.

I always thought going ATG full rom benefits you as you're using your glutes and core more?

Made me decide to look at one of my videos to see if I'm doing that. I think I'm buttwinking as I think I see my back rounding once I reach the hole?