Need help on my swim/lift training

[saladcannon]

I just turned 16 last month and i have taken lifting seriously since about may. My goal is to become a better swimmer while maintaining a clean look (not too skinny). I swam summer league which isnt very hard and i been at the gym the whole summer, especially during august. Currently i am in a private swimming club to prepare me for highschool swimming which is really intense and on intervals. I am afraid i am doing something wrong because this is my 5th week of swimming and i get really winded after a main set, but i can still keep going. This is my workout routine
Monday- swim(2000-3000 meters a combo of sprints, intervals, and distance)
Tuesday- Lift
Wednesday- run 5k (pr 21:58) (i run cross country for my highschool)
thursday- lift
friday- swim (2000-3000 meters a combo of sprints, intervals, and distance)
weekends rest
Before school started i would lift 3 days then rest and repeat. But now i only go tuesday and thursday, which means i wont hit a certain muscle group for a whole week. While lifting i do 8-12 reps for 3 sets with a high weight, i work with a plate for bench reps, plate and 15 for squat reps, and i have stopped deadlifting because of running and swimming. I fear i do not lift enough anymore but at the same time i am getting unmotivated due to the lack of transportation. My highschool swim season starts november 10th, i am happy with my body but i am not happy with my endurance in the water. Any tips? Should i change anything? Thanks

[CobybSmith]

Find a upper/lower workout program and do the upper one day the lower the other. I was a swimmer for a couple years, if you can wear a drag suit during practices, it will ****ing suck but be worth it once you take it off, and make sure you are working on breathing. On easy sets try to just breathe every 5-7 strokes, and on the difficult ones 3-5 strokes for a breathe.

[saladcannon]

Find a upper/lower workout program and do the upper one day the lower the other. I was a swimmer for a couple years, if you can wear a drag suit during practices, it will ****ing suck but be worth it once you take it off, and make sure you are working on breathing. On easy sets try to just breathe every 5-7 strokes, and on the difficult ones 3-5 strokes for a breathe.

yeah i already wear a drag suit, and another thing is all my friends i go with to the gym do the groups like me so if i change it up then i dont think i could work out with them.

[a_emory]

Crossfit is what you are looking for. Their mtcon style WODs will improve your endurance in the water.

Personally, I also really like swimming like 10 200s on an easy interval then doing some serious strength work like dead lift ladders or something. Get creative w/ it, swimming + Crossfit is pretty awesome.

[krakkerz]

Crossfit is what you are looking for. Their mtcon style WODs will improve your endurance in the water.

Personally, I also really like swimming like 10 200s on an easy interval then doing some serious strength work like dead lift ladders or something. Get creative w/ it, swimming + Crossfit is pretty awesome.

Crossfit is the exact antithesis of what a swimmer needs. A sport which is hard on the shoulders being supported by a "program" which is hard on the shoulders.

And don't start your garbage about modifying to suit. As far as the vast majority of people know, Crossfit is the WODs and group classes.

OP, a while back, I answered a couple of questions for swimmers. Search back for them and you'll get some good answers. If you can't find them, PM me and I'll fish them out later.

[saladcannon]

Crossfit is the exact antithesis of what a swimmer needs. A sport which is hard on the shoulders being supported by a "program" which is hard on the shoulders.

And don't start your garbage about modifying to suit. As far as the vast majority of people know, Crossfit is the WODs and group classes.

OP, a while back, I answered a couple of questions for swimmers. Search back for them and you'll get some good answers. If you can't find them, PM me and I'll fish them out later.

Yeah i cant find those old posts. I tried pming you but your inbox is full. I think i should start crossfit because regular 3 sets of 8-12 isnt cutting it for the pool. Im happy with the weight im gaining and how my physical appearance is but i know im not performing as well as i should be. Im not really booksmart with lifting and all the terms, i know how to properly do exercises and basics though. I know crossfit is endurance and not all about lifting high ass weights, but im not familiar with the lingo. Im really determined to go far in this sport and doing whatever i can to best me. Ive been given tips here and there like "go for higher reps because you need the endurace" but nothing big.

[krakkerz]

Yeah i cant find those old posts. I tried pming you but your inbox is full. I think i should start crossfit because regular 3 sets of 8-12 isnt cutting it for the pool. Im happy with the weight im gaining and how my physical appearance is but i know im not performing as well as i should be. Im not really booksmart with lifting and all the terms, i know how to properly do exercises and basics though. I know crossfit is endurance and not all about lifting high ass weights, but im not familiar with the lingo. Im really determined to go far in this sport and doing whatever i can to best me. Ive been given tips here and there like "go for higher reps because you need the endurace" but nothing big.

The tips you've been given are crappy platitudes. Crossfit is nothing like what a swimmer needs, although your swim loading is very low, anyway. I'm at work. I'll post the links ASAP.

[krakkerz]

I just turned 16 last month and i have taken lifting seriously since about may. My goal is to become a better swimmer while maintaining a clean look (not too skinny). I swam summer league which isnt very hard and i been at the gym the whole summer, especially during august. Currently i am in a private swimming club to prepare me for highschool swimming which is really intense and on intervals. I am afraid i am doing something wrong because this is my 5th week of swimming and i get really winded after a main set, but i can still keep going. This is my workout routine
Monday- swim(2000-3000 meters a combo of sprints, intervals, and distance)
Tuesday- Lift
Wednesday- run 5k (pr 21:58) (i run cross country for my highschool)
thursday- lift
friday- swim (2000-3000 meters a combo of sprints, intervals, and distance)
weekends rest
Before school started i would lift 3 days then rest and repeat. But now i only go tuesday and thursday, which means i wont hit a certain muscle group for a whole week. While lifting i do 8-12 reps for 3 sets with a high weight, i work with a plate for bench reps, plate and 15 for squat reps, and i have stopped deadlifting because of running and swimming. I fear i do not lift enough anymore but at the same time i am getting unmotivated due to the lack of transportation. My highschool swim season starts november 10th, i am happy with my body but i am not happy with my endurance in the water. Any tips? Should i change anything? Thanks

OK, I've got some time, so it's probably as easy to just answer the question than to direct you to old threads.

Firstly, I believe in three days per week, full body routines for most athletes in non-strength sports who aren't advanced athletes. So, I'd put you in that category. You could try Starting Strength, but the Bill Starr 5x5 routines give you more flexibility. They're easy to find on the internet.

To that, add a lot of upper back work and external rotation. Swimming is by and large heavy on internal rotation (except breast and back stroke but more time seems to be spent on free).

On top of that, sets in the 8-12 range aren't necessarily doing much for you. They aren't giving you your best opportunity to improve strength. As far as endurance is concerned, lifting weights for high reps doesn't compete with thousands of metres of swimming.

You don't have a particularly large load. I know swimmers who would do one of your sessions 11 times per week. Those guys are hard to program for.

Swim training is odd in that, because it's a largely concentric only exercise, recovery is easier than other sports. I would think the most difficult recovery aspect would be the run.

If I was advising you, I'd firstly do more sessions in the morning - depending on what the coach says. But if you were to keep the number of sessions, do them in the morning on Monday and Thursday. Lift Monday, Wednesday and Friday in the afternoons. If you can't move sessions and only want to train once per day, then you're stuck with Tuesday and Thursday.

If you begin with Starting Strength and remove the overhead pressing work, replacing it with rows, and add pullups (perhaps on alternating days), you would cover most of what's required. For shoulders, use 3 way laterals on each training day. You can replace the rear laterals with band pull-aparts. You need an external rotation exercise and wall-slides in each session, as well. Oh, and core workA session might look like this:

Back Squat: 3 x 5
Bent Over Row: 3-4 x 4-6
Romanian Deadlift: 3-4 x 4-6
Incline Press:3-4 x 6-10
One-Arm Plank: 2 x 1 Minute
3-way lateral: 2 x 20

You may choose to do more unilateral work later, but this is a good place to start.

[a_emory]

Crossfit is the exact antithesis of what a swimmer needs. A sport which is hard on the shoulders being supported by a "program" which is hard on the shoulders.

And don't start your garbage about modifying to suit. As far as the vast majority of people know, Crossfit is the WODs and group classes.

OP, a while back, I answered a couple of questions for swimmers. Search back for them and you'll get some good answers. If you can't find them, PM me and I'll fish them out later.

I dont know what you are so scarred of. Crossfit done properly does not hurt your shoulders. I threw like 100 baseballs today. Swam 1650 yards. Did a snatch ladder, OHS ladder. DL strength work and the main site WOD.

MY SHOULDERS ARE FINE. I do this kind of thing most days.

I read SCs OP and my main take away was that he was concerned that he gets winded. Crossfit would improve his ability to express power in the time domains relevant to swimming. Crossfit is a great supplement to swimming.

[krakkerz]

I dont know what you are so scarred of. Crossfit done properly does not hurt your shoulders. I threw like 100 baseballs today. Swam 1650 yards. Did a snatch ladder, OHS ladder. DL strength work and the main site WOD.

MY SHOULDERS ARE FINE. I do this kind of thing most days.

I read SCs OP and my main take away was that he was concerned that he gets winded. Crossfit would improve his ability to express power in the time domains relevant to swimming. Crossfit is a great supplement to swimming.

No-one is scared (correct spelling) anything. I am scarred of many things. Mostly contact sports.

As per usual, your example of yourself means stuff all. I couldn't give a rat's date if your shoulders are fine I also could not care less if you feel fitter and stronger after doing Crossfit.

Your average Crossfit gym does not cater to the specific needs of any sports person and the coach frequently has no more education than the weekend Level 1 course. They do not understand how to scale or modify for specific athletes.

In its base form, Crossfit has quite a reliance on overhead work, which should be avoided by swimmers (and probably baseball players) - especially with a bar. Swimmers also need specific work aside from that to stay healthy.

Swimmers also need work which complements the energy systems they work with, not everything else.

I think you'd find some time learning about physiology and programming would be well spent for you, rather than coming here and shouting "Crossfit, Crossfit, Crossfit" at everyone.

[df252]

swimming 2 days a week if fine for maintaining form, but you should be swimming more often if you are looking to improve endurance. Swim with paddles will increase you strength. Join a masters swim team meet 3 days a week typically first thing in the morning. The pool I swim at it isn't uncommon for the high school team to practice 2x a day. You'll be surprised how much that works your upper body

[goppx001]

Yea 2 times a week isn't nearly enough, I swam competitively my whole life including NCAA division 1 (9 practices a week plus 3 days of weights). At your age if you are serious about getting fast I would recommend swimming every day but Sunday. If you dont want to do that in all honesty you should just swim for fun or maintenance and forget about getting fast. My times were 22.3 in 50 yards fly and 51.1 in the 100 yard fly

[a_emory]

No-one is scared (correct spelling) anything. I am scarred of many things. Mostly contact sports.

As per usual, your example of yourself means stuff all. I couldn't give a rat's date if your shoulders are fine I also could not care less if you feel fitter and stronger after doing Crossfit.

Your average Crossfit gym does not cater to the specific needs of any sports person and the coach frequently has no more education than the weekend Level 1 course. They do not understand how to scale or modify for specific athletes.

In its base form, Crossfit has quite a reliance on overhead work, which should be avoided by swimmers (and probably baseball players) - especially with a bar. Swimmers also need specific work aside from that to stay healthy.

Swimmers also need work which complements the energy systems they work with, not everything else.

I think you'd find some time learning about physiology and programming would be well spent for you, rather than coming here and shouting "Crossfit, Crossfit, Crossfit" at everyone.

Of course that is the case. Because it is evidence, plain as day, that the old-wives tale crap you are spreading about swimmers and baseball players not doing a lot of overhead stuff, is nothing but that, BS.

[krakkerz]

Of course that is the case. Because it is evidence, plain as day, that the old-wives tale crap you are spreading about swimmers and baseball players not doing a lot of overhead stuff, is nothing but that, BS.

You are a prize imbecile with no knowledge of physiology or experience training athletes. Old wives tales? My knowledge of swimming training comes directly from the Australian Institute of Sport.

Just go away. You are an embarrassment.

[a_emory]

You are a prize imbecile with no knowledge of physiology or experience training athletes. Old wives tales? My knowledge of swimming training comes directly from the Australian Institute of Sport.

Just go away. You are an embarrassment.

Things change bra, its OK.

[krakkerz]

Things change bra, its OK.

Apparently not. You're still here talking garbage about things you have no knowledge of. You can try all the ad hominem attacks about my age and non sequiturs about why your own experience extrapolates to a wider group - but the unfortunate reality is that none of it matters because you have no idea what you are on about in the first place.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Read some actual, useful texts, train some real life athletes (they're out there - you just turn up to a club and ask to help out), get some actual perspective and then criticise people who know more than you.

Would you like me to set you a reading list? Start with some Dr Suess and work your way up to Zatsiorsky.

[amar654]

Of course that is the case. Because it is evidence, plain as day, that the old-wives tale crap you are spreading about swimmers and baseball players not doing a lot of overhead stuff, is nothing but that, BS.

Once again you only proceed to counter stuff that you can easily counter. What about when Krakkerz said;"Your average Crossfit gym does not cater to the specific needs of any sports person and the coach frequently has no more education than the weekend Level 1 course. They do not understand how to scale or modify for specific athletes."? Any answer to that? Saying "if I can do it that means it works for everyone!" is ridicules. Hershel Walker did nothing but pushups and sprints and become an elite running back, yet most people who attempt that would fail. And that overhead stuff is not false. I dont know much about swimming, but baseball players (pitchers especially) are often told to not do overhead stuff so they dont get muscular imbalances and hurt themselves, especially inseason. That is why they are often seen doing pulling movements to strengthen muscles that are neglected in a throwing motion.

Baseball players do train overhead when out of season and not getting hundreds of reps of throws on a daily bases, so the risk of muscular imbalance and injury is not as high. i did the same thing inseason for the Shotput. Swimmers on the other hand are often times swimming great if not greater distances in the offseason (at least the really motivated ones are) so pre-hab is very important for them. Hence the under emphasis on overhead pushing movements and more so on a rowing movement.

[a_emory]

Once again you only proceed to counter stuff that you can easily counter. What about when Krakkerz said;"Your average Crossfit gym does not cater to the specific needs of any sports person and the coach frequently has no more education than the weekend Level 1 course. They do not understand how to scale or modify for specific athletes."? Any answer to that? Saying "if I can do it that means it works for everyone!" is ridicules. Hershel Walker did nothing but pushups and sprints and become an elite running back, yet most people who attempt that would fail. And that overhead stuff is not false. I dont know much about swimming, but baseball players (pitchers especially) are often told to not do overhead stuff so they dont get muscular imbalances and hurt themselves, especially inseason. That is why they are often seen doing pulling movements to strengthen muscles that are neglected in a throwing motion.

Baseball players do train overhead when out of season and not getting hundreds of reps of throws on a daily bases, so the risk of muscular imbalance and injury is not as high. i did the same thing inseason for the Shotput. Swimmers on the other hand are often times swimming great if not greater distances in the offseason (at least the really motivated ones are) so pre-hab is very important for them. Hence the under emphasis on overhead pushing movements and more so on a rowing movement.

For the most part I have tried to differentiate between Crossfit the idea and HQ, w/ random individual gyms and their owners. In gym ownership, there are obviously going to be good ones, and bad ones. There are gyms owned, run, and coached by the likes of Rich Froning and Jason Khalipa on I am sure there are gyms owned and run like the ones you and krakkerz seem to be familiar with. That isn't really a discussion to be had there for me. I accept the variance.

I am not saying that if I can do it everyone else should or could. But what I am saying is that the danger--the reason old school coaches--think swimmers and baseball players shouldn't do a lot of over head work, is in the positions, the coaching, the athlete, not in the movement. If you are doing it right you can snatch, clean and jerk, every day or so w/ moderate to light weight. You can go pretty heavy once or twice a weak...and still throw a baseball or swim every day. I know this because I do it.

My point then, is that it is possible. And if someone really wants to train themselves, I don't care if they want to play baseball or track, they need to be doing a good portion of overhead work / loading. Take for example, a movement I mostly associate with Crossfit, overhead walking lunge. Its a great movement. "OOOO wait, I am sorry sir. We don't recommend you train that way, seeing as you are a baseball...you can do crunches over there. "Those exercises are too dangerous for you"..."but coach, that guy over there is doing them fine, why can't I?"..."I told you! it is because you are a baseball player."

[a_emory]

Once again you only proceed to counter stuff that you can easily counter. What about when Krakkerz said;"Your average Crossfit gym does not cater to the specific needs of any sports person and the coach frequently has no more education than the weekend Level 1 course. They do not understand how to scale or modify for specific athletes."? Any answer to that? Saying "if I can do it that means it works for everyone!" is ridicules. Hershel Walker did nothing but pushups and sprints and become an elite running back, yet most people who attempt that would fail. And that overhead stuff is not false. I dont know much about swimming, but baseball players (pitchers especially) are often told to not do overhead stuff so they dont get muscular imbalances and hurt themselves, especially inseason. That is why they are often seen doing pulling movements to strengthen muscles that are neglected in a throwing motion.

Baseball players do train overhead when out of season and not getting hundreds of reps of throws on a daily bases, so the risk of muscular imbalance and injury is not as high. i did the same thing inseason for the Shotput. Swimmers on the other hand are often times swimming great if not greater distances in the offseason (at least the really motivated ones are) so pre-hab is very important for them. Hence the under emphasis on overhead pushing movements and more so on a rowing movement.

Muscular imbalance muscular imsmalance. There are functional movement used in the training of well rounded athletes. No one is going to develop muscular imbalance by following a good, well rounded program.

[amar654]

I am not saying that if I can do it everyone else should or could. But what I am saying is that the danger--the reason old school coaches--think swimmers and baseball players shouldn't do a lot of over head work, is in the positions, the coaching, the athlete, not in the movement. If you are doing it right you can snatch, clean and jerk, every day or so w/ moderate to light weight. You can go pretty heavy once or twice a weak...and still throw a baseball or swim every day. I know this because I do it.

Sure you may do it, but are you doing it in a high level competition or recreationally? I do over head work and go swim as well, but the reason I do that is

1) Im not a competitive swimmer
2) Im not swiming the great distances and doing the same drills those high level swimmers are doing, so I can get away with it.

Sure with the current swim load this guy is using he can get away with doing overhead stuff, but if he turns it up and starts training hard for swimming his weight room priorities will change as well

[krakkerz]

For the most part I have tried to differentiate between Crossfit the idea and HQ, w/ random individual gyms and their owners. In gym ownership, there are obviously going to be good ones, and bad ones. There are gyms owned, run, and coached by the likes of Rich Froning and Jason Khalipa on I am sure there are gyms owned and run like the ones you and krakkerz seem to be familiar with. That isn't really a discussion to be had there for me. I accept the variance.

I am not saying that if I can do it everyone else should or could. But what I am saying is that the danger--the reason old school coaches--think swimmers and baseball players shouldn't do a lot of over head work, is in the positions, the coaching, the athlete, not in the movement. If you are doing it right you can snatch, clean and jerk, every day or so w/ moderate to light weight. You can go pretty heavy once or twice a weak...and still throw a baseball or swim every day. I know this because I do it.

My point then, is that it is possible. And if someone really wants to train themselves, I don't care if they want to play baseball or track, they need to be doing a good portion of overhead work / loading. Take for example, a movement I mostly associate with Crossfit, overhead walking lunge. Its a great movement. "OOOO wait, I am sorry sir. We don't recommend you train that way, seeing as you are a baseball...you can do crunches over there. "Those exercises are too dangerous for you"..."but coach, that guy over there is doing them fine, why can't I?"..."I told you! it is because you are a baseball player."

Again - you are a dickhead of the highest order. With no idea of what you are saying and gross misrepresentations of what I say. When all is said and done, I'll go and train some athletes this afternoon and you'll sit around wondering why people don't want to listen to you.

[a_emory]

Again - you are a dickhead of the highest order. With no idea of what you are saying and gross misrepresentations of what I say. When all is said and done, I'll go and train some athletes this afternoon and you'll sit around wondering why people don't want to listen to you.

\

I laughed man LOL out loud. I don't sit around...

Maybe there is a language barrier between us? Like you think you know because of x or y and I actually do...

How do I have no idea what I am saying? Care to explain? I do this **** everyday...

[a_emory]

Sure you may do it, but are you doing it in a high level competition or recreationally? I do over head work and go swim as well, but the reason I do that is

1) Im not a competitive swimmer
2) Im not swiming the great distances and doing the same drills those high level swimmers are doing, so I can get away with it.

Sure with the current swim load this guy is using he can get away with doing overhead stuff, but if he turns it up and starts training hard for swimming his weight room priorities will change as well

I am not currently competing. I am training to compete. My experience w/ swimming is more learning than training. Crossfit is more my training. But just because I am not competing does not mean I am not putting in yards.

For a reference, I swim about 2-3k yards 3-7 / week. That is about as much as we were supposed to swim in high school. It is about half or less of good college swimmers and about a 1/3 or less of what Phelps would do when he wasn't drinking.

Another reference, that is about a mile a day. Or about half of the Iron man swim, roughly equal to the Olympic distance swim, and about 3-4 times the sprint distance swim.

[a_emory]

Also, I can tell that I could easily double that work load and not be affected by it. Of course you must realize that, if I sense an issue, I back off. Swimming 14 miles a week is something I don't think I could have sustained in high school because I didn't have a good grasp of how to swim. Now that I know, it is much like running in that it is rhythmical, the spine is key, and swimming is low impact. So if you have good form...

The reason I don't train more is not that I don't want to, it is because of time.