O/T: Natural or not, Doug Miller is nasty lean...

[Unbiasedfan]

my pov is called "sceptic"

your pov is called "istillbelieveinsantaclaus"


seriously you can say all you want, i know it's because you use it as motivation... why the **** do you think they take such a long off season, to build maturity or to cycle and test negative when he competes? he has a ****ing degree in biochemistry, he can probably cook better gear than underground labs

With a k

No bro, the degree helps him optimize his training and nutrition

[TTimmerman]

let me break down the arguments as to why he could be natural;

PRO

he passes drug tests has been done before, and it's not that hard with proper knowledge (cfr biochemistry degree)
he passed the polygraph that's even easier
other top natural athletes vouch for him now i'm not a conspiracy kind of guy but... this doesn't really need further explanation
his progress isn't mindblowingwell pro's at full blown dosages might even regress from year to year...

CONTRA

- he's retarded big, a lot bigger than even avid juiceheads
- he combines this size with mindblowing conditioning, which is quite hard without "support"
- the long off season might come off as "he took the time cause he's so dedicated" while this to me seems as an awesome opportunity to cycle and let it run out of his system
- he's beyond strong, yes there are stronger naturals out there but they don't do lifts like he does while they're depleted like he is
- "USA natty" seriously... the difference with european shows is just stupid... have fun countering that one, we got athletes of all demographics competing here too


in the end only he will know for sure... maybe i'm just jealous (sure you'll jump onto that one) but in the end if it sounds too good to be true, it usually is

[SammyJr]

Now I don't know what to believe


I'm not trying to counter you, just curious, why don't those European naturals just use drugs and cheat the tests too?

[TTimmerman]

Now I don't know what to believe


I'm not trying to counter you, just curious, why don't those European naturals just use drugs and cheat the tests too?

some do and even they would be no match for USA natty...



so: all of the arguments could be countered... in the end it all depends if you want to believe or not.

[juan072]

let me break down the arguments as to why he could be natural;

PRO

he passes drug tests has been done before, and it's not that hard with proper knowledge (cfr biochemistry degree)
he passed the polygraph that's even easier
other top natural athletes vouch for him now i'm not a conspiracy kind of guy but... this doesn't really need further explanation
his progress isn't mindblowingwell pro's at full blown dosages might even regress from year to year...

CONTRA

- he's retarded big, a lot bigger than even avid juiceheads
- he combines this size with mindblowing conditioning, which is quite hard without "support"
- the long off season might come off as "he took the time cause he's so dedicated" while this to me seems as an awesome opportunity to cycle and let it run out of his system
- he's beyond strong, yes there are stronger naturals out there but they don't do lifts like he does while they're depleted like he is
- "USA natty" seriously... the difference with european shows is just stupid... have fun countering that one, we got athletes of all demographics competing here too


in the end only he will know for sure... maybe i'm just jealous (sure you'll jump onto that one) but in the end if it sounds too good to be true, it usually is

Okay. Moving past that. In your opinion, why is there such a variation between Phil Heath and other NPC competitors?

[Devils]

Okay. Moving past that. In your opinion, why is there such a variation between Phil Heath and other NPC competitors?

Is this a joke? Phil Health is Mr Olympia and a poster child of modern bodybuilding, he's got a lot of support and "benefactors" behind him. NPC competitors are pretty much nobody's funding themselves. Huge difference.

[TTimmerman]

Okay. Moving past that. In your opinion, why is there such a variation between Phil Heath and other NPC competitors?

phil heath, the gift, competed at a pro level under 220lbs in his first years... so the most gifted drug responder, current mr olympia, weighed 20lbs more than doug, being enhanced

[juan072]

phil heath, the gift, competed at a pro level under 220lbs in his first years... so the most gifted drug responder, current mr olympia, weighed 20lbs more than doug, being enhanced

Again - what specifically accounts for the difference between Phil and other NPC competitors?

[TTimmerman]

Again - what specifically accounts for the difference between Phil and other NPC competitors?

A: Devils already answered

B: this thread is not about the difference between Phil and NPC competitors, but about the similarity between Phil and Doug don't go off topic now

[juan072]

A: Devils already answered

B: this thread is not about the difference between Phil and NPC competitors, but about the similarity between Phil and Doug don't go off topic now

Devils didn't answer it - read what he wrote. Please respond to my question. I'll make it easier for you - is the difference between Phil and other NPC/ IFBB pros due to:
1) the way that they lift weights (i.e., Phil discovered some way to position his hands on the bar that no one else has tried)
2) their nutrition (Phil found a secret fruit in the rain forest that provides super-anabolic carbs that lead to incredible muscle gain and fat loss simultaneously)
3) his "supplement" doses (Phil found a secret "supplement" and a secret special "dose" that everyone else didn't know about)
4) genetics (Phil responds better to training and supplements)
5) any other suggestions you may have

As well, while you're at it, please provide the name of the best natural bodybuilder in the world in your mind.

Thanks - just hoping to understand the thought process. Who knows - maybe you'll change my mind?

[TTimmerman]

Devils didn't answer it - read what he wrote. Please respond to my question. I'll make it easier for you - is the difference between Phil and other NPC/ IFBB pros due to:
1) the way that they lift weights (i.e., Phil discovered some way to position his hands on the bar that no one else has tried)
2) their nutrition (Phil found a secret fruit in the rain forest that provides super-anabolic carbs that lead to incredible muscle gain and fat loss simultaneously)
3) his "supplement" doses (Phil found a secret "supplement" and a secret special "dose" that everyone else didn't know about)
4) genetics (Phil responds better to training and supplements)
5) any other suggestions you may have

As well, while you're at it, please provide the name of the best natural bodybuilder in the world in your mind.

Thanks - just hoping to understand the thought process. Who knows - maybe you'll change my mind?

listen the **** up ****, if you're gonna debate in such a demeanour you can just gtfo. if you think your 1 vague argument actually means something versus the 8 solid ones that just got debunked you're ****ting yourself in the same way you're ****ting yourself believing Doug Miller is 100% natural. you're delusional talking to me like that while you're cornered, but what's to be expected knowing you believe in fairy tales

worst case scenario you can call me a skeptic if i'd be wrong. i'll take that over being called "naive"

[Larfleeze]

Devils didn't answer it - read what he wrote. Please respond to my question. I'll make it easier for you - is the difference between Phil and other NPC/ IFBB pros due to:
1) the way that they lift weights (i.e., Phil discovered some way to position his hands on the bar that no one else has tried)
2) their nutrition (Phil found a secret fruit in the rain forest that provides super-anabolic carbs that lead to incredible muscle gain and fat loss simultaneously)
3) his "supplement" doses (Phil found a secret "supplement" and a secret special "dose" that everyone else didn't know about)
4) genetics (Phil responds better to training and supplements)
5) any other suggestions you may have

As well, while you're at it, please provide the name of the best natural bodybuilder in the world in your mind.

Thanks - just hoping to understand the thought process. Who knows - maybe you'll change my mind?

[juan072]

listen the **** up ****, if you're gonna debate in such a demeanour you can just gtfo. if you think your 1 vague argument actually means something versus the 8 solid ones that just got debunked you're ****ting yourself in the same way you're ****ting yourself believing Doug Miller is 100% natural. you're delusional talking to me like that while you're cornered, but what's to be expected knowing you believe in fairy tales

worst case scenario you can call me a skeptic if i'd be wrong. i'll take that over being called "naive"

I apologize - I suspect you've become confused. I was simply trying to understand your stance.

Please allow me to clarify. The point of my questions was to understand whether you felt that perhaps Phil's genetics are the reason that his physique exceeds what other professional bodybuilders have been able to achieve with what we can reasonably conclude is the same level of training, nutrition, and supplementation. If one can accept that his genetics have allowed him to develop a physique that is so far beyond many of these other competitors, it certainly raises the possibility that we're observing something similar with Doug Miller.

In any case, I apologize again for the confusion; my comments certainly were not intended to cause you to lose your temper like a small child.

[TTimmerman]

I apologize - I suspect you've become confused. I was simply trying to understand your stance.

Please allow me to clarify. The point of my questions was to understand whether you felt that perhaps Phil's genetics are the reason that his physique exceeds what other professional bodybuilders have been able to achieve with what we can reasonably conclude is the same level of training, nutrition, and supplementation. If one can accept that his genetics have allowed him to develop a physique that is so far beyond many of these other competitors, it certainly raises the possibility that we're observing something similar with Doug Miller.

In any case, I apologize again for the confusion; my comments certainly were not intended to cause you to lose your temper like a small child.

genetics and gear...

i'd refrain from calling me a small child, as i'm only debating this matter from a pro and con perspective, in which Doug's natural status stands no chance. you however ignore 9 debunked arguments (i counted them in my post) and come up with yet another one which would lead to another argument AGAINST his natural status cause phil heath doesn't win based on his mass, he wins because he's complete, conditioned. there are NPC amateurs weighing more than him, so he's mainly proportionally blessed. whereas Doug main strength is his size in the natural division.

there you go, anything else? wonder what's next for you to come up with

oh, and, you're not gonna enjoy this section son

[jahaa]

- "USA natty" seriously... the difference with european shows is just stupid... have fun countering that one, we got athletes of all demographics competing here too

This is something ive noticed aswell. The difference is so crazy, this is the size you have on the best "natties" in Sweden http://instagram.com/rickardbravo

[AdamantiumYoke]

my comments certainly were not intended to cause you to lose your temper like a small child.

You surely never quit right ? Debating just for the sake of it

[zmcdole]

granted

BUT what i was aiming at was that the average american natural competitor far outmasses/conditions (not saying condition comes from gear, but it's harder for naturals to keep size while being extremely conditioned) the european natural competitor... that in my eyes is suspicious as ****


and i have to believe that those guys are 20 lbs heavier, 2-3 inches shorter and more conditioned, NATURAL? no thanks

believe me I'm skeptical of Doug. Your argument that he's not only conditioned, but holding a ton of mass is very difficult if not impossible to argue. I'm way more skeptical of Doug than I am Jesse simply because Jesse has passed random tests and Doug has only passed tests he knew were coming to the best of my knowledge. I do want to end by saying I'm just skeptical, very, but skeptical is what I'll label myself. Since I can't be 100% sure I'm not gonna go out and flat out call the guy a liar even though there's enough there are plenty of reasons to suggest he is in deed full of it.

[RoroCwalker]

Doug is natural.

Those who don't believe him, will never achieve their goals because their minds are so limited, and as always, haters gotta hate.

#BELIEVE #ACHIEVE #HATERSGONNAHATE #JusticeforDOUG #NattyIsMyReality

#WhyAreTheyDoingAllTheseTestsOnHim


On a serious note,

Considering the information gathered, the speculations and the standards that are known around the bodybuilding world, it is unlikely for Doug to be natural, although, it is a possibility.

None of us know, but it's a safe bet to say he isn't, considering all the "fake natties" that were exposed in the past and the known measures to bypass certain tests.

[lukamura]

So, Jeff Alberts natty or not? His quads are even bigger than Doug's.







I bet someone will find he's not. Oh, the bb.com boards...

[TTimmerman]

Believe whatever you want mate if that inspires you

[zmcdole]

So, Jeff Alberts natty or not? His quads are even bigger than Doug's.







I bet someone will find he's not. Oh, the bb.com boards...

ONe bodypart does not tell the whole story. I've seen calves on a guy who nearly never lifted that rivaled the greatest on any bbing stage including IFBB.

[lukamura]

So, Jeff Alberts not naty? ;[

[Kiwi_]

No one is natty.

[TTimmerman]

wait a minute? natural is when you don't take protein powders, right? if not forget all the posts i made, my bad

[Meshuggah]

Everyone is a skeptic. Hell, I've made ridiculous gains over the past decade and pretty much everyone I know thinks I'm juicing. I've never touched the stuff but I know it's not gonna stop everyone from criticizing me for doing something I haven't done.

[flangmasterj]

Game time! Who says you should cut water and sodium?! Morning after 1165 grams carbs, 2.85 gallons water, 10,000mg salt. First thing in morning. Lets do this!




Talking Gainzzz with 4x Mr Olympia @mrojaycutlerofficial Great dude! Great show!




Just waiting between prejudging and night show. Maintaining conditioning for the night.

[zmcdole]

wait a minute? natural is when you don't take protein powders, right? if not forget all the posts i made, my bad

vit d3 is a hormone too according to blaha

[lukamura]

vit d3 is a hormone too according to blaha

If he really said that, then I see no point in bringing up his words of "wisdom". This guy gotta be a troll, a really big one.

[MrDeafMuscle]

Juan...plz just stfu.


Seriously.....I lost some IQ reading your "argument points".

[DPNZ]

So, Jeff Alberts not naty? ;[

Course he is.

Jeff's been my coach for 2 years. Dude is a testament to hard work and dedication.


Yeah and Juan, stop posting. It's gross.