HD Phil versus Kai Comparisons [bodybuilders.gr]

[letsthrive]

Pictures from bodybuilders.gr/team-andro
These are from prejudging as well I think.
I see Phil winning, thoughts?

edit: more comparisons

[RoroCwalker]

The pictures are angled, Phil is closer to the camera and half of these pictures are mistimed.

Kai's leg development is ridiculous.

I see Kai winning.

[letsthrive]

The pictures are angled, Phil is closer to the camera and half of these pictures are mistimed.

Kai's leg development is ridiculous.

I see Kai winning.

Do you think that Kai's conditioning was equal or superior to that of Phil's?

[Devils]

Phil was the sharper one, Abs aren't that bad.

Phil just seems more complete and is still freaky in some poses. Kai is great but always seems to suffer from less conditioning from the rear.

[KJEnriquez16]

Kai beat Phix of course

[RoroCwalker]

Do you think that Kai's conditioning was equal or superior to that of Phil's?

I'd say they were equal due to the fact that we can't exactly/technically measure conditioning (%water/%fat/etc.), and given both of their physiques, they show distinctive "conditioning" traits in different areas of their body.

For instance,

Phil has more glutes striations than Kai.
Kai has more* striated triceps.
Phil seems to have drier arms in the BDB.
Kai shows more detail and vascularity through his arms in the SC.
Phil has a drier and more detailed lower back and traps.
Kai has "feathered" and more detailed lats*.
Kai's legs from the side display a much drier and detailed look than Phil's (especially the calves and quads).
etc.

Of course, they aren't 100% indicators of superior conditioning, but due to the fact that we can only base it on what we see, they play a potential role in what we perceive as more conditioned.

They seem fairly equal in terms of conditioning.

[T3mpest]

Shows how much larger kai is that's for sure. The second ab and thigh pic is super Mistimed for Kai. I think these are finals pics as Phil looks pretty good here and prejudging wasn't kind to him. kai does need to be sharper in a few areas to really get a fair shake against Phil. Phil does look more conditioned in these shots by a little bit and the judges overemphasize that I think.

Kai gets striations in some major body parts and feathering easy, but he lacks Phil's deep seperation in the legs in every angle, gluetes and less crisp lower back. Kai has to give up a bit more size to bring those details in to win. He did it earlier in his career for shows, but since he added mass in the last 4 years or so he hasn't quite come in like that.

[RoroCwalker]

Shows how much larger kai is that's for sure. The an and thigh pic is super Mortimer for Kai. I think these are finals pics as Phil looks pretty good here and prejudging wasn't kind to him. kai does need to be sharper in a few areas to really get a fair shake against Phil. Phil does look more conditioned in these shots by a little bit and the judges overemphasize that I think

These are pre-judging pictures.

[Iceman1981]

In my opinion, these pics show that Phil was better conditioned from the back easily even though his conditioning was totally off and to think this was from the prejudging.

[stealth_swimmer]

Phil was the sharper one, Abs aren't that bad.

Phil just seems more complete and is still freaky in some poses. Kai is great but always seems to suffer from less conditioning from the rear.

Yup. Phil's chest was also sharper and had better inner quad separation even though Kai's vastus lateralis has cross-striations.

In my opinion, these pics show that Phil was better conditioned from the back easily even though his conditioning was totally off and to think this was from the prejudging.

What was I telling everyone? Phil was sharper than Kai even at prejudging. People were just in denial. The screens they have inside the arena for those in attendance show close-up video of the competitors (and it's not the same as the online stream, so you don't get all these weird angles like the ones from the online stream), and it's in HD. You pick up a lot of the detail from those screens.

[NVious]

Phil was the sharper one, Abs aren't that bad.

Phil just seems more complete and is still freaky in some poses. Kai is great but always seems to suffer from less conditioning from the rear.

[NVious]

Dem abs:

[JohnMariettePT]

Just my opinion.

Phil slightly more conditioned and Kai looks alot bigger.

[endurancell]

Do you think that Kai's conditioning was equal or superior to that of Phil's?

Disregard

Proportion
Definition
Symmetry
Balance
Striations
Effectiveness of tan
Presentation
Wide shoulders and narrow hip taper
The upper body and the lower body should be in proportional
Balance
Good shoulder development – arms not overpowering the
Shoulder caps and vice versa resulting in symmetry
Lat connection should be low into the waist
Thigh sweep with strong development around the knee area


Acquire conditioning

[stealth_swimmer]

Why did you quote that part about Phil being more conditioned from the rear and not just part about abs, Nvious? The pics you posted aren't from the rear.

Disregard

Proportion
Definition
Symmetry
Balance
Striations
Effectiveness of tan
Presentation
Wide shoulders and narrow hip taper
The upper body and the lower body should be in proportional
Balance
Good shoulder development – arms not overpowering the
Shoulder caps and vice versa resulting in symmetry
Lat connection should be low into the waist
Thigh sweep with strong development around the knee area


Acquire conditioning

Phil beats Kai in almost all those things...

Just my opinion.

Phil slightly more conditioned and Kai looks alot bigger.

The difference in condition wasn't slight. It's was clearly noticeable, just not as much as in 2013.

[Iceman1981]

Dem abs:

If we are talking about lack of abs, let's talk about Wolf. They seem to be "melting" like Cutlers abs. Phil really tightened up for the finals.

[RoroCwalker]

Phil beats Kai in almost all those things...

Pinpoint these aspects out of the one enduracell presented.

Please, don't start with the "symmetry" debate, in this context, we'll refer to "symmetry" as bilateral symmetry.

[endurancell]

Phil beats Kai in almost all those things...

Probably "confidence" out of that list

If we are talking about lack of abs, let's talk about Wolf. They seem to be "melting" like Cutlers abs. Phil really tightened up for the finals.

They seem to be getting worse with every show and spacing apart more and more

[RoroCwalker]

Probably "confidence" out of that list

Not even.

Even if he was, it's not hard to be confident when you've been assigned your win before the show even started.

[stealth_swimmer]

Pinpoint these aspects out of the one enduracell presented.

Please, don't start with the "symmetry" debate, in this context, we'll refer to "symmetry" as bilateral symmetry.

Proportion - Phil (though Kai's skeletal structure is better, but Phil's muscle proportions are better)
Definition - Phil (clearly)
Symmetry - probably about the same
Balance - Phil (Kai hides his legs in some poses, making him look top-heavy)
Striations - Phil, clearly. Only place Kai wins at this is the quad cross-striations
Effectiveness of tan - tied
Presentation - Phil in the mandatories, Kai in the posing routine(posing routine isn't scored though)
Wide shoulders and narrow hip taper - Kai, clearly
The upper body and the lower body should be in proportional - Phil maybe by a hair, the two are pretty close, but as i said earlier, Kai sometimes hides his legs in some poses.
Good shoulder development – arms not overpowering the
Shoulder caps and vice versa resulting in symmetry - Phil's arms no longer overpower his delts. Kai on the other hand clearly has his delts overpowered by his chest and traps in the crab most muscular
Lat connection should be low into the waist - Kai clearly wins in having lower lat insertions (Phil's back has more detail everywhere)
Thigh sweep with strong development around the knee area - both have great sweep, but Kai's sweep has clearly better cross striations.

Not even.

Even if he was, it's not hard to be confident when you've been assigned your win before the show even started.

They both *seemed* confident on stage. That being said, there's no evidence that Phil was "assigned" the win. He was clearly the more conditioned guy *again*....after literally years of judges saying that the *only* thing Kai needs to work on is coming in sharper.

[DPNZ]

Pictures clearly showing that Phil is overall the more complete bodybuilder. Again.

[letsthrive]

[img]http://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/10670147_10152646187165219_1222027939451532396_n.j pg?oh=81a8cdc129a87d1ff6db340a3e1b2bd0&oe=54B60BBB &__gda__=1420698029_9c61dca7dfa89e7ffc70ed241c83a8 cmg]

[img]http://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/10600631_10152646187160219_7742995409689207211_n.j pg?oh=57ce050340a8e626eb81040afebabd96&oe=54BCE33F &__gda__=1420817193_4dd0571fc11aa2dbffeac1647514cd mg]

[img]http://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/10610637_735299986517434_4854581864475258019_n.jpg ?oh=eb0fe464625c7c0eb7d88191ec8ef8a8&oe=54C59E52&_ _gda__=1421396324_6dd5bf20c36fe3ab8b037c906741c7eg]

[img]http://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xap1/v/t1.0-9/10659419_10152646169840219_373404916915877039_n.jp g?oh=42bc1a55fb84c2a9df42a76c5c73891f&oe=54F745CD& __gda__=1422549748_6e442f254391ad864c9e3f968c0a684 g]

[img]http://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/10425506_10204075764368611_2663070093336711_npg?oh =5c4d0fdd1c876af5ad327ade7d5fb350&oe=54C90B4D&__gd a__=1418287912_e4760df4c0be951a9b581fd60c1ed92mg]

[img]http://scontent-b-mxp.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/v/t1.0-9/10358866_10204075764248608_7935459860801982867_n.j pg?oh=57256febf8e85967864b96d4db880b31&oe=548674mg]

[img]http://i.imgur.com/zCKIQZf.pg]

[Img]http://i.imgur.com/wtgArfM.pmg]

Dem abs:

[img]http://i.imgur.com/SWc5cuy.pmg]

[img]http://i.imgur.com/henF9w9.pngmg]

[img]http://i.imgur.com/FYMwjWV.jpg?g]

[Img]http://www.eastlabs.sk/images/data/kai-vs-phil.jpmg]

'Not bad' as in when he posed they weren't that bad. Not when he was relaxed, when he was relaxed they were horrendous. Easily the worse waist he's brought to the stage. Still don't think that factor alone made him worse than any other bodybuilder on that stage.

Disregard

Proportion
Definition
Symmetry
Balance
Striations
Effectiveness of tan
Presentation
Wide shoulders and narrow hip taper
The upper body and the lower body should be in proportional
Balance
Good shoulder development – arms not overpowering the
Shoulder caps and vice versa resulting in symmetry
Lat connection should be low into the waist
Thigh sweep with strong development around the knee area


Acquire conditioning

Again you misinterpret things and make a fool out of yourself, no where did I claim that was the holy grail of bodybuilding and everything else is not important, I was inquiring into Rorocwalker's thought process.


How you define each of those is entirely subjective, how you've phrased your standards and how you conduct yourself shows you are unable of having a decent argument. Good day.

[RoroCwalker]

Proportion - Phil (though Kai's skeletal structure is better, but Phil's muscle proportions are better)
Definition - Phil (clearly)
Symmetry - probably about the same
Balance - Phil (Kai hides his legs in some poses, making him look top-heavy)
Striations - Phil, clearly. Only place Kai wins at this is the quad cross-striations
Effectiveness of tan - tied
Presentation - Phil in the mandatories, Kai in the posing routine(posing routine isn't scored though)
Wide shoulders and narrow hip taper - Kai, clearly
The upper body and the lower body should be in proportional - Phil maybe by a hair, the two are pretty close, but as i said earlier, Kai sometimes hides his legs in some poses.
Good shoulder development – arms not overpowering the
Shoulder caps and vice versa resulting in symmetry - Phil's arms no longer overpower his delts. Kai on the other hand clearly has his delts overpowered by his chest and traps in the crab most muscular
Lat connection should be low into the waist - Kai clearly wins in having lower lat insertions (Phil's back has more detail everywhere)
Thigh sweep with strong development around the knee area - both have great sweep, but Kai's sweep has clearly better cross striations.

Excuse the lack of organization.

Proportions - No,
Phil's quad sweep is overpowered by his inner thighs, his arms overpower his shoulder, his hamstrings overpower his glutes from the side, his arms overpower his chest in the FLS.

Kai's traps are arguably underpowered in the BDB, and his chest is underpowered some variations of his hands on hips MM.

Definition - Arguably (inclined to agree), they both have distinctive body parts with more definition than the other (legs, back(BDB), FDB for Kai, etc.) (RLS, arms(FDB), glutes, etc.)

Symmetry - Agreed, although, Kai hides it.

Balance - No, we've already talked about that "hides his legs" topic before, and I still stand my point, Kai's legs are perfectly aligned with the structure of the pose, he's not "hiding his legs". Kai doesn't look "top-heavy" in any of his poses, if anything, it would be the other way around.

Striations - No, I have them equally presenting as much striations. (Kai's chest, lats, quads) (Phil's glutes and triceps in the BDB)

Effectiveness of tan - No, Phil has better tan/color (if that's what "tan" is referring to).

Presentation - No, Phil in mandatories? Really? Kai takes Phil in every mandatory except the SC (in terms of posing). Kai takes the posing routines, yes.

Wide shoulders and narrow hip taper - Agreed.

The upper body and lower body should be in proportional - No, both are fairly proportionate in terms of upper/lower body, although, Phil's lack of quad sweep can make him seem out of proportion in some of the front poses, and his side chest when exaggeratedly twisted.

Shoulder caps and vice versa resulting in symmetry - No, Phil's arms do overpower his delts a bit, and no, Kai's delts aren't overpowered in the crab MM, at least, not in the new one.

Lat connection should be low into the waist - Agreed that Kai wins, but I disagree that Phil's back has more detail everywhere in the BDB, only in the RLS.

Thigh sweep with strong development around the knee area - Kai's sweep has better cross striations and is bigger too.

[Deano87]

Will people get over Phil's "lack of abs"?
Clearly he's posing differently, and not flexing in certain poses.
And half the pics posted are all timed incorrectly.
His abs are clearly there, Ab thigh in pic 3.
Its not like Kai's are any better

[RoroCwalker]

Will people get over Phil's "lack of abs"?
Clearly he's posing differently, and not flexing in certain poses.
And half the pics posted are all timed incorrectly.
His abs are clearly there, Ab thigh in pic 3.
Its not like Kai's are any better

Kai's fit the ideal "6 pack", they're more symmetrical than Phil's and they're thicker.

[hzx]

The pictures are angled, Phil is closer to the camera and half of these pictures are mistimed.

Kai's leg development is ridiculous.

I see Kai winning.

How is his leg development 'ridiculous' when he looses detail halfway up his quads

[RoroCwalker]

How is his leg development 'ridiculous' when he looses detail halfway up his quads

Sure, let's disregard the side poses, the rear poses and the 4/5th of his leg development from the front.

Given your logic, I suppose Coleman's leg development wasn't ridiculous either.

[rushki]

Thanks for the thread. Each has major flaws... Sadly I will preach what everyone preaches and say that insulina/ GH combo has screwed up their guts at the cost of more muscle. Would prefer tighter waists and less muscle TBH; but whatever. Those 2011/2012 pics of Phil were nice... though you can clearly see how his back improved... but not worth the cost of losing his tightness. IMO. Excited to see next year's controversies in all honesty.

[hzx]

Sure, let's disregard the side poses, the rear poses and the 4/5th of his leg development from the front.

Given your logic, I suppose Coleman's leg development wasn't ridiculous either.

And let's disregard the fact that he has all year to prepare for one show and he still comes in not that conditioned. Lol at him pulling out of Prague because he knew he wasn't going to win. Get off his nuts

[letsthrive]

Sure, let's disregard the side poses, the rear poses and the 4/5th of his leg development from the front.

Side poses yes, but from the rear he has significantly less detail than Phil.





Also you need to realize that striations don't always mean more quad detail.