When a high carb meal disturbs energy/mood, is it because of blood sugar or insulin?

[Mrpb]

If I eat too many carbs in one meal it tends to make me tired and moody. I feel fine on limited carbs.

Is it the body's reaction to the blood sugar or is it to the insulin levels? Or perhaps both?

[Mncdk]

Well, both in that blood sugar triggers an insulin response.

But what you are talking about sounds like an insulin response to me.

[Mrpb]

Well, both in that blood sugar triggers an insulin response.

I am aware of that.

But what you are talking about sounds like an insulin response to me.

How about slightly less sharp vision?

[bigdogfarmhand]

i experience this in the mornings sometimes

[Mncdk]

That doesn't ring a bell with me - it's not something I've noticed after high carbs. I recognize the post-carbs lethargy, but if it messes with your vision, I'd talk to a doc just to be sure. Maybe have blood test.

[Mrpb]

^ Yeah thanks. Have done so, I'm fine. Just trying to understand my carb tolerance better. If it's insulin I need to manage, I also have to be careful about protein.

Thing is, I don't really seem to feel the same reaction after consuming whey, which is supposedly quite insulinogenic. It could be that the portion of whey is just too small to make noticeable effects.

[Mncdk]

If it's insulin I need to manage, I also have to be careful about protein.

Thing is, I don't really seem to feel the same reaction after consuming whey, which is supposedly quite insulinogenic. It could be that the portion of whey is just too small to make noticeable effects.

According to a random guy on the internet;

Don't confuse this with blood sugar spikes, the insulinogenic properties you speak of are for the amino acid uptake (insulin=storage), which is then followed by glucagon (glucagon= release) to create a balance in the system. The better/higher quality the protein source is the better the effect, if you aren't looking to efficiently utilize the protein you are ingesting then choose one with a low insulinogenic effect. Nature's pretty smart eh? If it only caused an insulin effect you would die from lowering a non elevated blood sugar, this is also why protein ingestion (by itself) can help with fat loss as the glucagon effect releases stored energy to create this balance in case there is blood sugar removed during the amino uptake process.
Insulin- prevents death by lowering blood sugar
Glucagon- prevents death by raising blood sugar

http://forum.bulletproofexec.com/ind...insulinogenic/

[JerryB]

I read sometime ago after the insulin has shuffled the glucose from the blood stream into muscle glycogen storage or into fat cells to be stored as fat, the blood glucose level drops which may lead to the mood swing. I don't know if that is true. .

[Mrpb]

According to a random guy on the internet;

"Don't confuse this with blood sugar spikes"

Thing is, I'm not confusing them, which is why I am asking.

[bartolomei]

If I eat too many carbs in one meal it tends to make me tired and moody. I feel fine on limited carbs.

Is it the body's reaction to the blood sugar or is it to the insulin levels? Or perhaps both?

http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-c...a/faq-20058488
"Hyperinsulinemia causes no signs or symptoms unless it causes low blood sugar (hypoglycemia)."

Less sharp vision and fatigue might be symptoms of low blood sugar, and anxiety or excitement (?) might be a symptom of increased epinephrine (adrenaline) levels as a response to low blood glucose.

The solution could be to eat "slow carbs" like whole-grain bread instead of white bread, or to add either fats or proteins to a carb meal, because they slow down gastric emptying and thus glucose absorption.

Another issue with large meals is the redistribution of the blood flow toward the bowel, so other organs, including muscles and brain, get less blood and oxygen, which may trigger symptoms similar to hypoglycemia.

You may find something better about "postprandial syndrome" as I have:
http://www.uptodate.com/contents/pos...e-hypoglycemia
It's similar to reactive hypoglycemia, but without significant measurable drop of blood glucose.

Symptoms due to blood flow redirection could appear rather quickly, within 30 minutes, and symptoms of hypoglycemia probably only after about 2 hours.

[naturalguy]

I get the same which is why I eat smaller meals

[Mrpb]

@ bartolomei, thanks for the input. Although interesting it's not really what I'm asking.

This is what I'd like to know: is the common 'carb coma' the body's reaction to elevated blood sugar levels, to insulin or both?

@ naturalguy, yeah I do that too. It helps.

[bartolomei]

@ bartolomei, thanks for the input. Although interesting it's not really what I'm asking.

This is what I'd like to know: is the common 'carb coma' the body's reaction to elevated blood sugar levels, to insulin or both?

'Carb coma' is a cluster of symptoms, right? The article on Mayo Clinic says high insulin levels as such (hyperinsulinemia), without hypoglycemia cause no symptoms.

[Mrpb]

'Carb coma' is a cluster of symptoms, right? The article on Mayo Clinic says high insulin levels as such (hyperinsulinemia), without hypoglycemia cause no symptoms.

Interesting. This seems to confirm that fluctuations in blood sugar are more of an issue to me than insulin levels.

[Mncdk]

To my knowledge, carb coma is caused by low blood sugar.
But that's just from what I've been reading here in the Nut-section.

I stumbled over this though, in response to what bart mentioned about blood flow;

Although the passage of food into the gastrointestinal tract results in increased blood flow to the stomach and intestines, this is achieved by diversion of blood primarily from skeletal muscle tissue and by increasing the volume of blood pumped forward by the heart each minute. The flow of oxygen and blood to the brain is extremely tightly regulated by the circulatory system and does not drop after a meal,[12] and is not a cause of post-meal sleepiness.

There's some more stuff here, but you've probably seen it. Just in case; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postprandial_somnolence

[desslok]

I seem to remember reading something about selenium levels being able to help with this. Let me see if i can find what i am thinking of.

[bartolomei]

To my knowledge, carb coma is caused by low blood sugar.
But that's just from what I've been reading here in the Nut-section.

I stumbled over this though, in response to what bart mentioned about blood flow;

Originally Posted by Wikipedia
Although the passage of food into the gastrointestinal tract results in increased blood flow to the stomach and intestines, this is achieved by diversion of blood primarily from skeletal muscle tissue and by increasing the volume of blood pumped forward by the heart each minute. The flow of oxygen and blood to the brain is extremely tightly regulated by the circulatory system and does not drop after a meal,[12] and is not a cause of post-meal sleepiness

There's some more stuff here, but you've probably seen it. Just in case; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postprandial_somnolence

Yes, it's probably not decreased blood flow in the brain but a certain effect of hormones and nerves on the brain that causes sleepiness after meals
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15488646
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9284488

In the second study, sleepiness was related to meals but not to meal composition.

But when you notice tiredness after carbs and less after protein, it may be more related to glucose levels.

Decreased blood flow in the muscles after meals can also be related to fatigue.

[Mrpb]

In the second study, sleepiness was related to meals but not to meal composition.

Interesting. Seems to be contradicted by this one: High-glycemic-index carbohydrate meals shorten sleep onset
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/85/2/426.full

Do you happen to know more about the relation between meal frequency and insulin sensitivity?

I found this one: 2 seems better than 6 meals for insulin sensitivity, if I am reading it correctly.
http://www.diabetologia-journal.org/files/Kahleova.pdf

[NutritionKing]

Its definitely blood sugar.

I have mild type 2 diabetes and going hyper makes you extremely cranky and sleepy

[JasonTarin]

Here is what sounds like is going on. When you eat carbs your body produces insulin as a response to moderate the glucose created from those carbs and to also drive the nutrients you just ate into your muscle. When a high carb meal is eaten, if a person has a high sensativity to insulin they will go through a couple hour period where their blood sugar is low until it has time to flatten itself out. This happens over time or by eating more sugar. During this period you probably will get blurred vision, immense hunger, inability to think straight, and sleepiness. It's normal... its the same as when a kid crashes from eating too much candy.

[bartolomei]

Interesting. Seems to be contradicted by this one: High-glycemic-index carbohydrate meals shorten sleep onset
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/85/2/426.full

Do you happen to know more about the relation between meal frequency and insulin sensitivity?

I found this one: 2 seems better than 6 meals for insulin sensitivity, if I am reading it correctly.
http://www.diabetologia-journal.org/files/Kahleova.pdf

Here, with 2 meals, insulin sensitivity was increased, which means glucose moved from the blood to the cells quicker and thus caused quicker drop of the blood glucose levels. On the other hand, insulin levels were lower.

To me, the symptoms you've described (slightly less sharp vision, tiredness) sound more related to drop of glucose levels than to the change in insulin levels.

And just to add to the confusion, in this study irregular meals were associated with increased insulin resistance and insulin levels
http://www.nature.com/ejcn/journal/v.../1601935a.html
"The irregular meal frequency appears to produce a degree of insulin resistance..."

[MichielN]

High carb meals increase serotonin levels, which is the precursor to melatonin

Carbs raise insulin. Insulin increases absorption of amino acids that compete with L-Tryptophan, causing more absorption of tryptophan in brain cells. L-Tryptophan increases serotonin levels (serotonin is a byproduct via 5-htp). Serotonin is the precursor to melatonin.

That's why high carb meals and especially high G.I. meals can improve sleep.

[Mrpb]

Here, with 2 meals, insulin sensitivity was increased, which means glucose moved from the blood to the cells quicker and thus caused quicker drop of the blood glucose levels. On the other hand, insulin levels were lower.

Wow interesting. You got this tested?

Insulin levels being lower, that's a good thing right?

To me, the symptoms you've described (slightly less sharp vision, tiredness) sound more related to drop of glucose levels than to the change in insulin levels.

I think so too.

[Mrpb]

High carb meals increase serotonin levels, which is the precursor to melatonin

Carbs raise insulin. Insulin increases absorption of amino acids that compete with L-Tryptophan, causing more absorption of tryptophan in brain cells. L-Tryptophan increases serotonin levels (serotonin is a byproduct via 5-htp). Serotonin is the precursor to melatonin.

Interesting.

So a good amount of whey would increase insulin levels but it wouldn't increase serotonin levels correct?

That's why high carb meals and especially high G.I. meals can improve sleep.

Yeah I read that study that they improve sleep onset. In my case they don't improve sleep quality. The opposite actually, I sleep best with no carbs at night.

[MichielN]

Interesting.

So a good amount of whey would increase insulin levels but it wouldn't increase serotonin levels correct?



Yeah I read that study that they improve sleep onset. In my case they don't improve sleep quality. The opposite actually, I sleep best with no carbs at night.

I don't recall if the effect is CHO specific (ie glucose has a role) or because of the insulinogenic properties of meals tbh.


But I believe it's called postprandial somnolence so you can look that up and investigate it further if you like.

[bartolomei]

Wow interesting. You got this tested?

Insulin levels being lower, that's a good thing right?

In the study you've posted insulin sensitivity increased and insulin levels decreased. This is beneficial for diabetics. I don't know the effects of insulin levels alone, independently of glucose levels, in healthy people.

I've found another study in which insulin sensitivity after irregular meals was decreased, so just the opposite.
http://www.nature.com/ejcn/journal/v.../1601935a.html

Obviously, more studies would need to be checked...

[Mrpb]

In the study you've posted insulin sensitivity increased and insulin levels decreased.

Oh ok. I thought you were referring to yourself.

I've found another study in which insulin sensitivity after irregular meals was decreased, so just the opposite.
http://www.nature.com/ejcn/journal/v.../1601935a.html

I've seen that study but I don't see the outcome as opposite.

2 regular meals improved insulin sensitivity over 6 regular meals.

6 regular meals was better than 3-9 irregular meals.

My conclusion for now is that a limited, regular meal frequency is probably best for insulin sensitivity. The good old 3 meals per day might be a very good option.

[cls91]

High carb meals increase serotonin levels, which is the precursor to melatonin

Carbs raise insulin. Insulin increases absorption of amino acids that compete with L-Tryptophan, causing more absorption of tryptophan in brain cells. L-Tryptophan increases serotonin levels (serotonin is a byproduct via 5-htp). Serotonin is the precursor to melatonin.

That's why high carb meals and especially high G.I. meals can improve sleep.

Interesting.

So a good amount of whey would increase insulin levels but it wouldn't increase serotonin levels correct?
.

I don't recall if the effect is CHO specific (ie glucose has a role) or because of the insulinogenic properties of meals tbh.


But I believe it's called postprandial somnolence so you can look that up and investigate it further if you like.

Well isn't it the tryptophan that's needed, not specifically the insulin, which just helps tryptophan become more available?

So wouldn't the high tryptophan content of whey (relative to CHO meals), combined with its insulinogenic properties create a similar reaction?

[SuffolkPunch]

I second the reactive hypoglycemia theory - high blood sugar doesn't make you feel bad - it's when you get a swing the other way because your body had to over-produce insulin in order to clear the sugar from your blood. This is due to insulin resistance.

I used to have this, it is no longer a problem, I attribute ketogenic dieting to fixing this problem in me.

[Mrpb]

I second the reactive hypoglycemia theory - high blood sugar doesn't make you feel bad - it's when you get a swing the other way because your body had to over-produce insulin in order to clear the sugar from your blood. This is due to insulin resistance.

OK. So this does fit with the fact that high protein meals which are also insulinogenic don't cause any problems. Correct?

I'm reading up on it and Wiki and Mayoclinic both recommend eating small meals and snacks every 3 hours. Do you agree?

I used to have this, it is no longer a problem, I attribute ketogenic dieting to fixing this problem in me.

I've been doing some keto. I feel great on it. Remarkable. One problem: I lost reps on several lifts. How is that for you?

Edit: been reading some more. They say "at a small meal or snack about every 2-3 hours. Skipping meals can make symptoms worse."

I find the opposite to be more true. Waiting long between meals makes me feel good. Perhaps I don't have reactive hypoglycemia?