Cause of the round back deadlift.

[Denis54321]

It seems there are two schools of thought regarding the round back deadlift.
1. Glutes and hams are weak, causing the spinal erectors to overcompensate by rounding at the start of the pull, then contracting concentrically rather than isometrically.
2. Spinal erectors are too weak to maintain rigid extension in the back. So the back rounds at the start/middle of the movement(which is the most difficult part of the lift for most people) and then, towards the lockout, the erectors have an easier time straightening the back.

PLEASE NOTE: For this thread let us assume that the setup is perfect. The hips are at the right height for the particular individual, the bar is centered over the foot and is scraping the shin. This way, we can complicate things less.

Edit: Also, I have the conventional deadlift in mind while making this post, so please note that as well.

In case you didn't know, I am talking about LOWER back rounding.

[Denis54321]

Personally, I believe it's weak erectors that cause the back to round. I am interested in what you guys think.

Edit: grammar mistake.

[adpowah]

Honestly it seems like it's usually a bad setup and bad technique.

[phrali]

The bar with all that weight on it is the cause.

[Denis54321]

Honestly it seems like it's usually a bad setup and bad technique.

In op: "PLEASE NOTE: For this thread let us assume that the setup is perfect. The hips are at the right height for the particular individual, the bar is centered over the foot and is scraping the shin. This way, we can complicate things less."

[Denis54321]

The bar with all that weight on it is the cause.

You have added so much to the discussion...

[adpowah]

In op: "PLEASE NOTE: For this thread let us assume that the setup is perfect. The hips are at the right height for the particular individual, the bar is centered over the foot and is scraping the shin. This way, we can complicate things less."

Thanks, sorry for pulling a tl;dr.

[rob112]

Are you talking strictly low back?

Anyways, sometimes when I set up good my lats not being tight enough make me round.

[arian11]

Why does it have to be only 1 or the other? Why can't it be both? Why can't it be 1 in 1 case and the other in another case? Why can't it be neither?

[Bballer99]

ive found that anything over 225 i stuggle to deadlift conventionally with a straight back

switched to semi-sumo (ed coan style)

saw gains and back is safe

thats just me tho

[Denis54321]

ive found that anything over 225 i stuggle to deadlift conventionally with a straight back

switched to semi-sumo (ed coan style)

saw gains and back is safe

thats just me tho

To me this is evidence for weak spinal erectors. If you are more upright(sumo) there will be less sheer force on the spine meaning the erectors won't have to work quite as hard. So you have better sumo technique compared to conventional. Less spinal flexion, that is.

[arn710]

This thread is dumb

[SPFjudge]

forgot option C, OP is a *******

[kennycroxdale]

It seems there are two schools of thought regarding the round back deadlift.
1. Glutes and hams are weak, causing the spinal erectors to overcompensate by rounding at the start of the pull, then contracting concentrically rather than isometrically.
2. Spinal erectors are too weak to maintain rigid extension in the back. So the back rounds at the start/middle of the movement(which is the most difficult part of the lift for most people) and then, towards the lockout, the erectors have an easier time straightening the back.

PLEASE NOTE: For this thread let us assume that the setup is perfect. The hips are at the right height for the particular individual, the bar is centered over the foot and is scraping the shin. This way, we can complicate things less.

Edit: Also, I have the conventional deadlift in mind while making this post, so please note that as well.

Back Rounding

Many traditional Conventional Deadlifter round their back in a max effort deadlift.

One of the reason for that is that the is as you stated, the body naturally shifts the load to the strongest muscle group.

It is a "Survival Mechanism", so to speak. The body's objective is to insure you make it.

With that said, there is "Good" and "Bad" rounding.

A Strong Case For the Rounded Back Deadlift
http://www.t-nation.com/training/str...-back-deadlift

This article provide some additional information on it.

Kenny Croxdale

[runtocatch]

The bar with all that weight on it is the cause.

Precisely!

You have added so much to the discussion...

Its a stupid discussion.

Why does it have to be only 1 or the other? Why can't it be both? Why can't it be 1 in 1 case and the other in another case? Why can't it be neither?

Cuz then you couldn't make a stupid thread.

This thread is dumb

Yes.

forgot option C, OP is a *******

Could be.

[ErickStevens]

Bad technique, weak core, weak upper back, heavy weight or a combination thereof.

[arian11]

To me this is evidence for weak spinal erectors. If you are more upright(sumo) there will be less sheer force on the spine meaning the erectors won't have to work quite as hard. So you have better sumo technique compared to conventional. Less spinal flexion, that is.

Or, you know, flexibility.

[Denis54321]

Or, you know, flexibility.

"PLEASE NOTE: For this thread let us assume that the setup is perfect." In the op.

[Denis54321]

Want to explain to me why this is a stupid thread? Rounding the back in the deadlift is the most common and unwanted technical error in powerlifting, dare I say. Yet it's difficult to diagnose why this even happens in the first place.

[LessThanLuke]

I just choose to do it.

[Rags85]

Rounding the back in the deadlift is the most common and unwanted technical error in powerlifting, dare I say.

I wouldn't say its the most common error as I don't know of a rule that states it is wrong to do so. Also, for some lifters, it is indeed intentional.

[E-Tank]

so according to op, rounding at any section of the back is not okay. Das it mane

[saw7988]

This seems like a common contradictory thing I see in weight lifting analysis, and I think OP phrased the question very well. In for answers.

Another area I see this type of conversation come up is with good morninging the squat. A similar question: are the hamstrings strong/quads weak because your body is moving into a position to use hip extension to move the weight the rest of the way? Or is it the reverse, like the hamstrings couldn't "keep up" with the involvement of the quads?

[saw7988]

Why does it have to be only 1 or the other? Why can't it be both? Why can't it be 1 in 1 case and the other in another case? Why can't it be neither?

"It depends" is certainly a valid answer. What would be even better though, is do you have a way of determining the cause of a problem, such as this, when seeing the lift?

[Denis54321]

I wouldn't say its the most common error as I don't know of a rule that states it is wrong to do so. Also, for some lifters, it is indeed intentional.

Well as far as rules go, there's no rule against squatting with tremendous spinal flexion, squatting with pressure on the balls of your feet, flaring elbows on bench like crazy, squatting with your knees caving in badly, and benching with zero upper back tightness. These are generally regarded as unsafe, however, so we try to avoid them.

[Denis54321]

so according to op, rounding at any section of the back is not okay. Das it mane

I never said you couldn't round the upper back. Seeing as this is the powerlifting section, most people here likely know that upper back rounding is not dangerous. That is why I didn't specify. FURTHERMORE, I never claimed that rounding any part of the back is not okay. I simply asked what other members here thought one could do to prevent it.

[arian11]

"PLEASE NOTE: For this thread let us assume that the setup is perfect." In the op.

We were no longer talking about your hypothetical OP. We were discussing bballer's ability to have a more neutral back doing sumo vs conventional. So I don't know how you can make that assumption for him specifically. So once again, it could just be flexibility for him and you are over thinking it.

[arn710]

Rounding the back in the deadlift is the most common and unwanted technical error in powerlifting, dare I say.

FURTHERMORE, I never claimed that rounding any part of the back is not okay.

wat

[Denis54321]

wat

1. I meant in the op. In the op, I never said that rounding anything was not okay. I was simply asking for opinions on how to prevent it.
2. Technical error=/=not okay. Although rounding the lower back is generally considered poor technique, there are loads of lifters who never get problems from it. In other words, even if you have a technical error in a lift, it may not necessarily be bad for you specifically. Insert Layne Norton/ Pete Rubish squats here, no offense intended.

[Denis54321]

We were no longer talking about your hypothetical OP. We were discussing bballer's ability to have a more neutral back doing sumo vs conventional. So I don't know how you can make that assumption for him specifically. So once again, it could just be flexibility for him and you are over thinking it.

You are right, I got side-tracked in my thinking. Setup could be an issue for him.