phosphatidic acid

[Younglifter16]

so what SL products are you guys using/are approved ? Worth experimenting for the ~10 bucks it costs, will rep for suggestion

[cumminslifter]

so what SL products are you guys using/are approved ? Worth experimenting for the ~10 bucks it costs, will rep for suggestion

ferns seems to be the go to

[DannPM]

so what SL products are you guys using/are approved ? Worth experimenting for the ~10 bucks it costs, will rep for suggestion

Fearn Lecithin Granules is what most have ordered, including myself

[Younglifter16]

ferns seems to be the go to

Fearn Lecithin Granules is what most have ordered, including myself

thanks and repped. now excuse me for being lazy, but how much are you guys taking if one serving is 8 grams of fat at 97% phosphatides?

[iamjeffrey]

thanks and repped. now excuse me for being lazy, but how much are you guys taking if one serving is 8 grams of fat at 97% phosphatides?

King dosage was 750mg pwo. I think one serving of fearn is 1.2g PA. I think that's the good starting point, and people are dosing higher up.

[BlueRev]

Can we please see some logs and people who are PA vets logging this stuff before suggesting it to every kid who asks about PA.
I get it, It sounds better for 1/4th the price, But lets see results before we suggest it to everyone.

[allanhouston90]

So if fearn advertises at 97% phosphatides and another product advertises 97% phosphatides and not showing the specific dosages, are they both probably containing the same amount of PA?

[cumminslifter]

King dosage was 750mg pwo. I think one serving of fearn is 1.2g PA. I think that's the good starting point, and people are dosing higher up.

this^

[mrcriminal]

Is there any other place I can order king don't see it here only place I saw it was tigerfitness

[Mr.Cooper69]

Simple, if I'm wrong, just go confirm that I am wrong with the two PhDs that have done extensive lab work with the ingredient in question. Thus far, what I have stated seems to have validity going by what the two aforementioned PhDs have commented on.

I could very well be wrong as I'm not a scientist but thus far, it would appear highly likely that I'm right, yet I'm being told that I'm wrong and the two main researchers on PA for sports performance are also wrong. Think about that for a second, you don't seem to be following the posts all that carefully and just assuming that the popularly regarded science guy is the one and only authority on everything.

Lastly, what exactly am I not liking? I've simply shared what I have learned which have also been agreed upon as being very possibly valid by the two main PA in sports performance researchers. I'm not liking or disliking anything, on the other hand, I'm being told that I'm wrong and that's that by a person that really should go discuss it with Wilson or Stout.

I didn't say you're wrong FFS. I said you made a huge logical leap. I'm sure it acts extracellularly too, but building tissue levels promotes constant flux in both environments. I'll explain this basic little tidbit just for you, but then, for the LAST TIME, I'll ask that you learn a little something about the human body before going off for countless posts and walls of text that are littered with hyperanalysis of simple topics. You have the little picture, but again, you don't really seem to understand any physio or pharm and that limits the relevance of your extrapolations tremendously. I don't expand on why you're wrong because I know how any argument with you ends up. For every post, there will be a long drawn out answer. In my past days, I would go tit for tat with you, hell I was even worse than you in this regard, but I now represent a brand on a higher level, plus I've learned the hard way that all of this discussion just ends up being a waste of time that I could have spent on R&D for actual advancement in the industry. Anyway, here's your bread and butter explanation for why dose timing doesn't matter:

When you dose PA continuously, it distributes to various tissues based on its Vd. The plasma also falls under one of these compartments if the Vd is low, and if it's high, skeletal muscle will be a more likely destination. During terminal elimination, PA leaves the tissue and once again enters the extracellular space. Throughout all of this, there is plenty of extracellular exposure. So to dose in a time-dependent fashion is indeed splitting hairs.

Enzymatic leakage is a sign of cell damage, but there are very, very many other reasons related to myogenic gene expression that could account for why sedentary populations don't experience hypertrophy with PA. This is actually a common finding with many compounds, and is secondary to the fact that many of these compounds actually just amplify the response to weight training stimulus rather than producing an independent hypertrophic effect. Now imagine if I said that all these compounds, like all of your basic ergogens and staples, all operate through the exact same MOA of enzymatic leakage from mechanical stress and that intracellular effects have nothing to do with their MOA? That wouldn't make much sense would it, especially if you consider that virtually all growth factor/hypertrophy pathways utilize protein kinases that are intracellular, with only the initial stimulus and hence one to a few steps in the pathway being located extracellularly. That would be an inappropriately large logical leap absent any other evidence, would it not?

Hopefully that's clear..

[DannPM]

thanks and repped. now excuse me for being lazy, but how much are you guys taking if one serving is 8 grams of fat at 97% phosphatides?

Two TBS of Fearn Lecithin Granules contains 1.2g of PA. KillerB84 has taken it up to 3 TBS (1.8g PA) and will soon try 4 TBS (2.4g PA) unless I've missed that attempt. Most are just taking two TBS 1.2g PA.

Consensus is to take pre-workout 30-60 mins prior.

Some people have reported some GI distress. You may want to ease into it if you're prone to that sort of thing.

[hamdysayed]

I didn't say you're wrong FFS. I said you made a huge logical leap. I'm sure it acts extracellularly too, but building tissue levels promotes constant flux in both environments. I'll explain this basic little tidbit just for you, but then, for the LAST TIME, I'll ask that you learn a little something about the human body before going off for countless posts and walls of text that are littered with hyperanalysis of simple topics. You have the little picture, but again, you don't really seem to understand any physio or pharm and that limits the relevance of your extrapolations tremendously. I don't expand on why you're wrong because I know how any argument with you ends up. For every post, there will be a long drawn out answer. In my past days, I would go tit for tat with you, hell I was even worse than you in this regard, but I now represent a brand on a higher level, plus I've learned the hard way that all of this discussion just ends up being a waste of time that I could have spent on R&D for actual advancement in the industry. Anyway, here's your bread and butter explanation for why dose timing doesn't matter:

When you dose PA continuously, it distributes to various tissues based on its Vd. The plasma also falls under one of these compartments if the Vd is low, and if it's high, skeletal muscle will be a more likely destination. During terminal elimination, PA leaves the tissue and once again enters the extracellular space. Throughout all of this, there is plenty of extracellular exposure. So to dose in a time-dependent fashion is indeed splitting hairs.

Enzymatic leakage is a sign of cell damage, but there are very, very many other reasons related to myogenic gene expression that could account for why sedentary populations don't experience hypertrophy with PA. This is actually a common finding with many compounds, and is secondary to the fact that many of these compounds actually just amplify the response to weight training stimulus rather than producing an independent hypertrophic effect. Now imagine if I said that all these compounds, like all of your basic ergogens and staples, all operate through the exact same MOA of enzymatic leakage from mechanical stress and that intracellular effects have nothing to do with their MOA? That wouldn't make much sense would it, especially if you consider that virtually all growth factor/hypertrophy pathways utilize protein kinases that are intracellular, with only the initial stimulus and hence one to a few steps in the pathway being located extracellularly. That would be an inappropriately large logical leap absent any other evidence, would it not?

Hopefully that's clear..

in b4 kdd come up with another argument out of thin air lol jk kdd don't b mad.
and coop what ya think about this whole soy lecithin granules? For pa as a cheaper alternative?

[MuscleUpCrohns]

I didn't say you're wrong FFS. I said you made a huge logical leap. I'm sure it acts extracellularly too, but building tissue levels promotes constant flux in both environments. I'll explain this basic little tidbit just for you, but then, for the LAST TIME, I'll ask that you learn a little something about the human body before going off for countless posts and walls of text that are littered with hyperanalysis of simple topics. You have the little picture, but again, you don't really seem to understand any physio or pharm and that limits the relevance of your extrapolations tremendously. I don't expand on why you're wrong because I know how any argument with you ends up. For every post, there will be a long drawn out answer. In my past days, I would go tit for tat with you, hell I was even worse than you in this regard, but I now represent a brand on a higher level, plus I've learned the hard way that all of this discussion just ends up being a waste of time that I could have spent on R&D for actual advancement in the industry. Anyway, here's your bread and butter explanation for why dose timing doesn't matter:

When you dose PA continuously, it distributes to various tissues based on its Vd. The plasma also falls under one of these compartments if the Vd is low, and if it's high, skeletal muscle will be a more likely destination. During terminal elimination, PA leaves the tissue and once again enters the extracellular space. Throughout all of this, there is plenty of extracellular exposure. So to dose in a time-dependent fashion is indeed splitting hairs.

Enzymatic leakage is a sign of cell damage, but there are very, very many other reasons related to myogenic gene expression that could account for why sedentary populations don't experience hypertrophy with PA. This is actually a common finding with many compounds, and is secondary to the fact that many of these compounds actually just amplify the response to weight training stimulus rather than producing an independent hypertrophic effect. Now imagine if I said that all these compounds, like all of your basic ergogens and staples, all operate through the exact same MOA of enzymatic leakage from mechanical stress and that intracellular effects have nothing to do with their MOA? That wouldn't make much sense would it, especially if you consider that virtually all growth factor/hypertrophy pathways utilize protein kinases that are intracellular, with only the initial stimulus and hence one to a few steps in the pathway being located extracellularly. That would be an inappropriately large logical leap absent any other evidence, would it not?

Hopefully that's clear..

Thank you for the info. So would it be correct to say that someone who has stomach problems with larger doses of PA from soy lecithin could get the same, or very similar, results from taking multiple, smaller doses of lecithin, or is a single dose better but the timing of the dose is not so important?

[Quadzilla99]

in b4 kdd come up with another argument out of thin air lol jk kdd don't b mad.
and coop what ya think about this whole soy lecithin granules? For pa as a cheaper alternative?

he mentioned in passing that it seems good earlier itt http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...post1300800621

[Danes]

Waiting for the answer from Wilson and Stout

[NewAgeMayan]

Waiting for the answer from Wilson and Stout

How promptly do you typically hear back?

[Danes]

How promptly do you typically hear back?

It depends. Hope they answer soon

[hamdysayed]

he mentioned in passing that it seems good earlier itt http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...post1300800621

reason why I asked is it seems more of a general comment but it's all good.

[kissdadookie]

Waiting for the answer from Wilson and Stout

I'm going to wait on that as well.

[kardoxo]

Id take it on every training day.

[Ninjathoskinny]

It's mind boggling how much blind faith people looking to get biggerderp strongerderp fasterderp place in people who have a dog in this race.

Now, I am untutored in the sacrilege that is biology - but that's because I am just a hillbilly who spends all day on a farm shepherding, churning butter, and harvesting grain - but when cousin Jimmy-James from the city got me the Hoffman study and I read it ONCE - I found it baffling how all the simpletons ignore or sidestep the fact that *protein* intake in the PA group was slightly HIGHER than the control group, which explains why the results are CONSISTENT with literature on ergogenic benefit on ....

...
...
...
...































protein.

[MarcelinoChiles]

I'm going to wait on that as well.

don't do that it's tedious and boring, leaps of logic are fun, when you don't know where you are going it's the best way to get someplace you have never been.

[kissdadookie]

It's mind boggling how much blind faith people looking to get biggerderp strongerderp fasterderp place in people who have a dog in this race.

Now, I am untutored in the sacrilege that is biology - but that's because I am just a hillbilly who spends all day on a farm shepherding, churning butter, and harvesting grain - but when cousin Jimmy-James from the city got me the Hoffman study and I read it ONCE - I found it baffling how all the simpletons ignore or sidestep the fact that *protein* intake in the PA group was slightly HIGHER than the control group, which explains why the results are CONSISTENT with literature on ergogenic benefit on ....

...
...
...
...































protein.

The Wilson study standardized the diets (calculated based on individual I believe). So that's a moot point really. It also essentially replicated what Hoffman found. So that's two different studies demonstrating the same outcome basically. Validation comes from replicable outcomes does it not?

[JSClen]

35 pages... the Max Out thread just got served.

[kissdadookie]

35 pages... the Max Out thread just got served.

That's good, moving away from preworkout discussions a little bit. LoL.

[Ninjathoskinny]

The Wilson study standardized the diets (calculated based on individual I believe). So that's a moot point really. It also essentially replicated what Hoffman found. So that's two different studies demonstrating the same outcome basically. Validation comes from replicable outcomes does it not?

Faulty reasoning, but lets play along with your logic-

Since Hoffman's comparison replicated and validated results from higher protein intake studies AND demonstrated the same could be achieved in a cost effective means, why spend extra money on a supplement that won't yield any *incremental* benefit?

Oh wait, it's because BB appeals to impulsive kiddies with low esteem and that would do almost anything for the gainz

[Danes]

Loool

[MarcelinoChiles]

Oh wait, it's because BB appeals to impulsive kiddies with low esteem and that would do almost anything for the gainz

i thought that was muscle mag that did that

[KillerB84]

I didn't say you're wrong FFS. I said you made a huge logical leap. I'm sure it acts extracellularly too, but building tissue levels promotes constant flux in both environments. I'll explain this basic little tidbit just for you, but then, for the LAST TIME, I'll ask that you learn a little something about the human body before going off for countless posts and walls of text that are littered with hyperanalysis of simple topics. You have the little picture, but again, you don't really seem to understand any physio or pharm and that limits the relevance of your extrapolations tremendously. I don't expand on why you're wrong because I know how any argument with you ends up. For every post, there will be a long drawn out answer. In my past days, I would go tit for tat with you, hell I was even worse than you in this regard, but I now represent a brand on a higher level, plus I've learned the hard way that all of this discussion just ends up being a waste of time that I could have spent on R&D for actual advancement in the industry. Anyway, here's your bread and butter explanation for why dose timing doesn't matter:

When you dose PA continuously, it distributes to various tissues based on its Vd. The plasma also falls under one of these compartments if the Vd is low, and if it's high, skeletal muscle will be a more likely destination. During terminal elimination, PA leaves the tissue and once again enters the extracellular space. Throughout all of this, there is plenty of extracellular exposure. So to dose in a time-dependent fashion is indeed splitting hairs.

Enzymatic leakage is a sign of cell damage, but there are very, very many other reasons related to myogenic gene expression that could account for why sedentary populations don't experience hypertrophy with PA. This is actually a common finding with many compounds, and is secondary to the fact that many of these compounds actually just amplify the response to weight training stimulus rather than producing an independent hypertrophic effect. Now imagine if I said that all these compounds, like all of your basic ergogens and staples, all operate through the exact same MOA of enzymatic leakage from mechanical stress and that intracellular effects have nothing to do with their MOA? That wouldn't make much sense would it, especially if you consider that virtually all growth factor/hypertrophy pathways utilize protein kinases that are intracellular, with only the initial stimulus and hence one to a few steps in the pathway being located extracellularly. That would be an inappropriately large logical leap absent any other evidence, would it not?

Hopefully that's clear..

So for the meatheads out there... dosing everyday as opposed to training days only? (Assuming training 4x a week)

[kissdadookie]

Faulty reasoning, but lets play along with your logic-

Since Hoffman's comparison replicated and validated results from higher protein intake studies AND demonstrated the same could be achieved in a cost effective means, why spend extra money on a supplement that won't yield any *incremental* benefit?

Oh wait, it's because BB appeals to impulsive kiddies with low esteem and that would do almost anything for the gainz

Follow the thread man. LoL. Wilson basically said to Danes to use the $8 soy lecithin instead of going out to buy a PA specific product many times that price.

I don't see how the research is at the end of the day a ploy to sell supplements if the researcher himself said that it is probably better using the $8 per month lecithin granules.

Also, Wilson replicated Hoffman's work, Hoffman wasn't replicating someone else's work. Derp Derp Derp.