Bench: Touch vs. Sink

[puckett26]

I trying to understand what the benefits of sinking the bar is. I personally dont sink the bar. I just touch the bar to my lower chest. I am not a good bencher by any means, best I have is 440. So clearly I dont have all the answers. I tried it once and that **** hurt. Call me what you want but Im not a fan. I have seen alot of people lately sink but sink it extremely deep. What are the benefits of it? And if you sink why do you do it?

[kmc06005]

In for answers. Maybe Bill will come in with some Dan Green insight.

[mcapote3]

izzy says it makes the lift easier i dont see it personally just hurts my sternum

[IronOynx]

Only useful in comp...will make the lift easier. A true pause will be harder than sinking it.

[JohnnyRingo350]

Mega weak bencher here, but I started sinking it some. The difference in speed off my chest is amazing.

[Jmadden44]

Helps my press command come faster I've realized. When I pause to the top of my chest it's harder for the bar to remain motionless prompting the press command, when I sink, the bar isn't going any further down, so it becomes motionless quicker, along with the command.

Also get rebound, I slowly control the weight down to 2" off the chest then quickly sink from there.

Edit:
Check the differences here,

285



343

[ecchastang]

When you lightly touch the bar to your chest, you are supporting the entire weight with the same muscles that will be used to press the weight back up When you sink the bar, you actually take weight off your arms. I can set 185 on my upper abs where I sink, and actually take my hands off the bar. Now if I sink 315, I am only holding maybe 150 with my arms, so I get much more speed off the chest. But like anything, it does take some getting used to, and building up abdominal strength.

[vadimmmo]

I've never heard of this before. Can't wait to try it on my next push day. Srs than a everyone above

Also lol if you think 440 isn't much, that's monster weight brah!

[WorldDomnit]

Helps my press command come faster I've realized. When I pause to the top of my chest it's harder for the bar to remain motionless prompting the press command, when I sink, the bar isn't going any further down, so it becomes motionless quicker, along with the command.

Also get rebound, I slowly control the weight down to 2" off the chest then quickly sink from there.

Edit:
Check the differences here,

285



343

Sorry but thats not sinking. Sinking is where you like rest the weight onto your chest. You don't like pull the weight into your chest, nor do you slowly bring it down to sink.
Sinking creates extra ROM, not sure why you want to force yourself to sink. I can understand why you'd want to let your chest hold some of the weight because if you held a bar right at your chest for a while your triceps would ****ing kill.

If you're going to sink, do it like Dan green

[puckett26]

I've never heard of this before. Can't wait to try it on my next push day. Srs than a everyone above

Also lol if you think 440 isn't much, that's monster weight brah!

Well its not bad but I weight 320. There are 189s and 220s that do that and more. It's also horrible compared to my squat and deadlift imo

[puckett26]

Helps my press command come faster I've realized. When I pause to the top of my chest it's harder for the bar to remain motionless prompting the press command, when I sink, the bar isn't going any further down, so it becomes motionless quicker, along with the command.

Also get rebound, I slowly control the weight down to 2" off the chest then quickly sink from there.

Edit:
Check the differences here,

285



343

Maybe it's just me but your vids aren't loading.

[Jmadden44]

Sorry but thats not sinking. Sinking is where you like rest the weight onto your chest. You don't like pull the weight into your chest, nor do you slowly bring it down to sink.
Sinking creates extra ROM, not sure why you want to force yourself to sink. I can understand why you'd want to let your chest hold some of the weight because if you held a bar right at your chest for a while your triceps would ****ing kill.

If you're going to sink, do it like Dan green

The way I currently do it, I load my lats by pulling into my chest, creating my explosiveness. Letting it "rest" makes me lose tightness.

[NorthStrong]

I've been sinking a bit more lately after trying to get away from it - and it's definitely feeling better with the extra sinking. I switched to a wider grip, so when I wasn't sinking, I had horrible speed off the chest and a stronger lockout compared to my old very close grip. Now with the wide grip and the sinking, I can get the bar moving off my chest pretty fast with just some leg drive it seems.

[arn710]

I'll freely admit that I started doing it after watching Dan Green. It really helps a lot with leg drive.

You have to be careful with it though. I have gotten into the bad habit of letting the sink collapse my arch and core. That's definitely not what you want

[DrWilliam]

I've been doing this trying to mimmick Dan ever since joining BBBC and my paused max has gone up probably 40 pounds in a few months (I also gained 10 pounds). I was weak off my chest before but now I'm fast off the chest.

[heavykettlebell]

I live here in norcal close to Boss Barbell and have been 2 of his seminars. I've also watched a lot of his videos. I wrote a blog post about it on deadliftnerd.com. With the sink method you're trying to turn the bench press into a push press. The sink and pause allows you to use a some of your body to initiate the movement. Dan Green is very lean and sometimes the sink is very hard to see. If you search on instagram for stevenaay , you can see how he sink. He's incredibly fat so it sinks quite a bit, but it will help you get a better idea of how to use implement the sink method. Here's one http://instagram.com/p/rbQQXdGjom/

ecchastang above posted a really good explanation. I'm actually going to try to see how much I can support on my chest taking my arms out of it.

If you're timing is right, after you lower the bar, you let it sink. Momentarily your arms relax slightly allowing your chest to hold a good portion of the weight. After the pause, you open up your chest hard allowing your chest to trampoline the weight and then punching it with you triceps chest and shoulders.

It takes along time to perfect and it's a competition specific lift. Touching at the chest for pause done really well is done by this guy Jason Manekoff, great form and much stricter rules in this federation

By no means am I an expert, I'm very new to the sport and pretty open to any opinions. But just like with anything, all this stuff take a lot of time to build and perfect.


Here's a video of me trying use the sink technique from 225lbs all the way up to 295lbs, going up in 5lbs increments. So about 14 sets.

[puckett26]

I live here in norcal close to Boss Barbell and have been 2 of his seminars. I've also watched a lot of his videos. I wrote a blog post about it on deadliftnerd.com. With the sink method you're trying to turn the bench press into a push press. The sink and pause allows you to use a some of your body to initiate the movement. Dan Green is very lean and sometimes the sink is very hard to see. If you search on instagram for stevenaay , you can see how he sink. He's incredibly fat so it sinks quite a bit, but it will help you get a better idea of how to use implement the sink method. Here's one http://instagram.com/p/rbQQXdGjom/

ecchastang above posted a really good explanation. I'm actually going to try to see how much I can support on my chest taking my arms out of it.

If you're timing is right, after you lower the bar, you let it sink. Momentarily your arms relax slightly allowing your chest to hold a good portion of the weight. After the pause, you open up your chest hard allowing your chest to trampoline the weight and then punching it with you triceps chest and shoulders.

It takes along time to perfect and it's a competition specific lift. Touching at the chest for pause done really well is done by this guy Jason Manekoff, great form and much stricter rules in this federation

By no means am I an expert, I'm very new to the sport and pretty open to any opinions. But just like with anything, all this stuff take a lot of time to build and perfect.


Here's a video of me trying use the sink technique from 225lbs all the way up to 295lbs, going up in 5lbs increments. So about 14 sets.

I bench very similar to Jason Manenkoff. The problem I see with alot of people mimicking Dan Green is I see it turns into heaving. Not saying that any of you have or anything but thats what I see, Im not a judge so I could be wrong. Any of you ever get called for heaving?

[mcapote3]

Well its not bad but I weight 320. There are 189s and 220s that do that and more. It's also horrible compared to my squat and deadlift imo

I hope to be at your level in a few years LOL. I guess its all perspective.

[ecchastang]

I bench very similar to Jason Manenkoff. The problem I see with alot of people mimicking Dan Green is I see it turns into heaving. Not saying that any of you have or anything but thats what I see, Im not a judge so I could be wrong. Any of you ever get called for heaving?

I feel that the risk of heaving is less for me when I sink, because I am already as low as I can go. Heaving occurs when you touch, and then after the press command allow the bar to sink further to stimulate more of the stretch reflex, and I can't do that with a proper sink. But I do see how people would heave in trying to mimic Dan Green.

[zmcdole]

I feel that the risk of heaving is less for me when I sink, because I am already as low as I can go. Heaving occurs when you touch, and then after the press command allow the bar to sink further to stimulate more of the stretch reflex, and I can't do that with a proper sink. But I do see how people would heave in trying to mimic Dan Green.

Heaving is when you use your chest or belly to propel to launch the bar upwards whether you sink it after the press command or not. I see a lot of people sink slightly and it seems to give them better leg drive. They're able to do that without literally using their chest or belly to assist in the lift. When you start using your chest or belly to drive the bar up you're heaving and that should get a redlight. The issue is that the term heave is never defined or described in the rulebooks that i've seen. Therefore, it's really unfair to redlight a lifter for it. The word heave literally means to lift. Rulebooks need to say that a lift may be redlighted if the lifter heaves with his or her chest/belly.

Dan and another lifter at boss barbell heave badly, but you really can't redlight them if it's not something that's clearly described as a no no in a rulebook. There's also some grey area that you have to account for too. I know some judges will say you heaved if the bar sank at all. To me as long as you're not sinking after the press command and you're not clearly gaining bar speed or momentum or propelling the bar from driving your chest or belly into it, you're good to go and should get whites.

I really hope rulebooks will make adjustments and clearly define what a heave is.

[cirion0000]

Heaving is when you use your chest or belly to propel to launch the bar upwards whether you sink it after the press command or not. I see a lot of people sink slightly and it seems to give them better leg drive. They're able to do that without literally using their chest or belly to assist in the lift. When you start using your chest or belly to drive the bar up you're heaving and that should get a redlight. The issue is that the term heave is never defined or described in the rulebooks that i've seen. Therefore, it's really unfair to redlight a lifter for it. The word heave literally means to lift. Rulebooks need to say that a lift may be redlighted if the lifter heaves with his or her chest/belly.

Dan and another lifter at boss barbell heave badly, but you really can't redlight them if it's not something that's clearly described as a no no in a rulebook. There's also some grey area that you have to account for too. I know some judges will say you heaved if the bar sank at all. To me as long as you're not sinking after the press command and you're not clearly gaining bar speed or momentum or propelling the bar from driving your chest or belly into it, you're good to go and should get whites.

I really hope rulebooks will make adjustments and clearly define what a heave is.

So recently I have been trying to really discover what "leg drive" means and how to use it correctly since I am new to learning correct benching, the cue I've used lately is to picture myself "Jumping" but without coming off the bench. Am I doing it correctly or can/will this end up in heaving as you describe it?

[isaku900]

Heaving is when you use your chest or belly to propel to launch the bar upwards whether you sink it after the press command or not. [...] The issue is that the term heave is never defined or described in the rulebooks that i've seen. Therefore, it's really unfair to redlight a lifter for it. The word heave literally means to lift. Rulebooks need to say that a lift may be redlighted if the lifter heaves with his or her chest/belly.

I really hope rulebooks will make adjustments and clearly define what a heave is.

the way I've always applied it is if the leg drive/body moves and that causes the bar to move then its a heave. If the leg drive/body movement and the bar movement is simultaneous its having good technique. definitely a subjective call and a grey area and something I've asked for clarification of with the USPA.

so far it seems to be a lot like obscenity; paraphrasing Justice Potter Stewart: "I can't define it but I know it when I see it."

[ecchastang]

Heaving is when you use your chest or belly to propel to launch the bar upwards whether you sink it after the press command or not. I see a lot of people sink slightly and it seems to give them better leg drive. They're able to do that without literally using their chest or belly to assist in the lift. When you start using your chest or belly to drive the bar up you're heaving and that should get a redlight. The issue is that the term heave is never defined or described in the rulebooks that i've seen. Therefore, it's really unfair to redlight a lifter for it. The word heave literally means to lift. Rulebooks need to say that a lift may be redlighted if the lifter heaves with his or her chest/belly.

Dan and another lifter at boss barbell heave badly, but you really can't redlight them if it's not something that's clearly described as a no no in a rulebook. There's also some grey area that you have to account for too. I know some judges will say you heaved if the bar sank at all. To me as long as you're not sinking after the press command and you're not clearly gaining bar speed or momentum or propelling the bar from driving your chest or belly into it, you're good to go and should get whites.

I really hope rulebooks will make adjustments and clearly define what a heave is.

Per USAPL Causes for disqualification of the bench press: Heaving or sinking the bar into the chest after it is motionless in such a way as to make the lift easier.

Notice the word "after."

Edit: http://www.rmlccolorado.com/images/USAPLHandbook2.pdf Page 8.

[isaku900]

Per USAPL Causes for disqualification of the bench press: Heaving or sinking the bar into the chest after it is motionless in such a way as to make the lift easier.

Notice the word "after."

Edit: http://www.rmlccolorado.com/images/USAPLHandbook2.pdf Page 8.

yeah. my issue with that is that there's already a disqualification that covers that kind of motion.
" 5. Any downward movement of the bar in the course of being pressed out. "

once the bar's been motionless and the press command is given...further sinking is inherently a downward motion of the bar.

The bench is not the only lift where there's multiple causes for disqualification that are covered by one more overarching cause.

[ecchastang]

yeah. my issue with that is that there's already a disqualification that covers that kind of motion.
" 5. Any downward movement of the bar in the course of being pressed out. "

once the bar's been motionless and the press command is given...further sinking is inherently a downward motion of the bar.

The bench is not the only lift where there's multiple causes for disqualification that are covered by one more overarching cause.

My point in that is using your chest/body/abs/stomach to help push the bar up is not a cause for disqualification as the person I was quoting stated. It is allowing downward motion after the press command to then use chest/body/abs/stomach to help.

[kmc06005]

I am really enjoying reading this thread. It's no secret I'm a benchophile, so it's the one lift I actually know something about, but I'm learning a ton in here and have some things to experiment with.

[zmcdole]

the way I've always applied it is if the leg drive/body moves and that causes the bar to move then its a heave. If the leg drive/body movement and the bar movement is simultaneous its having good technique. definitely a subjective call and a grey area and something I've asked for clarification of with the USPA.

so far it seems to be a lot like obscenity; paraphrasing Justice Potter Stewart: "I can't define it but I know it when I see it."

great way to explain it

[ecchastang]

Per USPA rules http://uspla.org/home/wp-content/upl...ok-v052713.pdf Page 16 -- Heaving, bouncing, or sinking the bar after it has been motionless on the chest or abdominal area, and the “PRESS” command has been given. Using leg drive (or abdominal drive) is not a reason for disqualification in USPA or USAPL, providing the bar does not drop lower after the press command is given, and that the upper back and butt remain in contact with the bench.

[isaku900]

Per USPA rules http://uspla.org/home/wp-content/upl...ok-v052713.pdf Page 16 -- Heaving, bouncing, or sinking the bar after it has been motionless on the chest or abdominal area, and the “PRESS” command has been given. Using leg drive (or abdominal drive) is not a reason for disqualification in USPA or USAPL, providing the bar does not drop lower after the press command is given, and that the upper back and butt remain in contact with the bench.

heaving.
bouncing.
or
sinking after the press command has been given.

do you even clause?

[breathinglife]

Yes, when read more closely most rulebooks (all that I've read) do not prohibit the Dan Green style technique. Dan once posted something on a video like, "Everyone reads article after article about how to improve their leg drive, but as soon as someone actually figures out how to use leg drive to help their bench, everyone starts complaining."

As others have said, as long as the sinking comes before the press command, this is a clean lift by most rulebooks, but the problem is that individual judges will redlight you for this because they aren't familiar with their own rulebooks. I've had a judge repeatedly redlight me at a local meet on my deadlift opener of 500 because he said I was dragging it up my legs. I tried to explain to him that the bar always touches the legs in a deadlift. Anyway, I just did a SLDL on my second attempt and that seemed to clear things up.

Back to the original poster's question, whether sinking is a good technique depends on you, and whether you can perfect it.

Pro's of sinking:
-Generally increases speed off the chest
-Enables you to save energy on the negative
Con's of sinking:
-It increases ROM
-If you're chest/back/etc. muscles aren't really all that beefy, it can just end up crushing you like a deflated balloon. So it's probably not for newbies.
-Requires good timing to maximize the benefit. If you don't fire your legs and pressing muscles at the same time, you won't really get an advantage out of it.
-It's difficult for some people to stay tight and let the bar sink, so sometimes they'll end up pressing it up unevenly, or things of that sort.
-Some judges will redlight you for it if they think it looks like heaving.

You'll notice most of the cons are related to doing it improperly, and really it comes down to that the sinking technique is a bit more difficult to master.

There are other techniques I've seen used that also have advantages. For example, a really slow negative results in a faster press signal. So, though you expend a bit more energy on the negative, you get an almost immediate press signal since the judge doesn't have to wait so long to see if the bar is motionless, and you're already very tight and ready to explode upward.