Can strength help build size?

[MSKFAHIM]

Alright, to give you guys some context:

I am presently doing StrongLifts 5x5. I enjoy learning to lift heavy.


Given that StrongLifts is strength oriented, I want to know if there is any benefit to doing this if I switch over to a bodybuilding style program later? What I am getting at is that a strength oriented program will get my major lifts up a lot faster than bodybuilding programs would. Will this increased strength help me when I switch over to a bodybuilding program to look bigger and better?


FAHIM

P.S. I want to be strong but not at the cost of looking small. I don't want to be big without being strong either. I want there to be some kind of cycling of say 6 months Strength and 6 months size/bodybuilding.

[Jasonk282]

No one that's really strong is really small...

[JohnnyJ1965]

I did the 5x5 programme a few months back. I didn't like doing Squats all the time and having to increase weights - not every week but every workout. I think your biceps and triceps need more than just compounds. Look at all those guys with huge arms - that's not just from compounds such as bench press.

Do those 5 compounds - squats, deadlifts, bench, overhead, rows - but add some isolation work for biceps and triceps - and also for calves too.

[ODoyle99]

No one that's really strong is really small...

^This

[SuffolkPunch]

The muscles used to perform those lifts will have to get bigger to get stronger. Strength is partly due to neural factors (which are well trained by a 5x5 type routine) but the majority comes from the amount of muscle tissue you have.

[LOLC2k]

This is a very overblown issue anyhow. It is not strength vs size. They go hand in hand. The only question is what rep range slightly improve strength gains over mass or vice versa.

The difference is small, and either way you are going to get bigger AND stronger. It's just different rep ranges have a slightly different focus. Slightly.

[MSKFAHIM]

I understand that lower rep ranges will still build "some" size gain while higher rep range will lean towards less strength and more size. However, I asked a specific question which nobody answered. I wanted to know if the additional strength I gain from routines like StrongLifts will be of any use when I switch to a bodybuilding style program. Bodybuilders don't train like strength atheletes, there has to be a reason behind that. The higher rep ranges and whatever volume they do must have an impact on what they end up looking like.

Let me put it some other way so that one may take a shot and answering my question:

I am guessing that my CNS is being trained well with a strength oriented program. I am also guessing that I am learning to recruit more muscle fibers to milk as much strength as possible from the muscles involved in lifting. Will this help when I start working with higher rep ranges to train like a bodybuilder?


FAHIM

[MSKFAHIM]

The difference is small, and either way you are going to get bigger AND stronger. It's just different rep ranges have a slightly different focus. Slightly.

In that case, why and how does bodybuilders end up looking like they can have these strength athletes for one of their 6 meals a day? Please have in mind that I am concerned about SIZE, the BIGNESS.

[hammerfelt]

Yes the stronger you are the more you can lift. That includes isolation lifts.

[GreekTrojan]

No, you are not the one who is listening. Outside of extreme ranges (ie chronic 1 rep max training), you build both at the same time, with minor emphasis on one of the other. As long and you keep the volume appropriate and always progress in added weights, you will gain size.

[MSKFAHIM]

Yes the stronger you are the more you can lift. That includes isolation lifts.

I understand that. However, does : The more you can lift = The more size you can gain?

For example, twin guys who never trained. One of them happens to just know how to recruit as much muscle fibers as possible and has a better CNS for lifting. So, when they start lifting:

Brother A: Starts with 100lbs bench, 200 lbs squat and 250 lbs deadlift
Brother B: Starts with 45 lbs bench, 90 lbs squat and 100 lbs deadlift

They have identical bodies. Only thing different is Brother A can, for some reason relating to his CNS, lift more. Given that everything from this point remains identical for the two of them, who will benefit more? or see more size gains?

[MSKFAHIM]

No, you are not the one who is listening. Outside of extreme ranges (ie chronic 1 rep max training), you build both at the same time, with minor emphasis on one of the other. As long and you keep the volume appropriate and always progress in added weights, you will gain size.

So please explain to me what makes bodybuilders so much bigger. Let us exclude the ones on steroids for both bodybuilding and strength athletes.

P.S. I am willing to learn as long as you are willing to explain and make sense.

[BeauFlexington]

So please explain to me what makes bodybuilders so much bigger.

They aren't.

OP, StrongLifts is a general purpose "Intro to How to Lift A Barbell" program. It's not as slanted towards pure strength training as you may think, but it shares a few common concepts. The strength you're getting from it is useful in so far that strength, in general, is useful. There's not a huge degree of "extra" strength that you're getting from it, that wouldn't be accomplished on other, similar beginner programs. Starting from "zero", you're gonna arrive at a similar place, from where you can branch out to other specialties.

It's more advantageous for BBers to be smaller rather than larger -- the illusion of large quantities of muscle is easier to pull off for shorter, smaller framed bros. Conversely, breaking PL records is easier when you're the biggest man on the planet. This will be evident when you Google average size stats for both disciplines. Additionally, it's more advantageous in the BB to be leaner, which further aids the illusion of size. For two identical torsos with the same musculature, the leaner model will appear bigger because of increased muscle definition.

[GreekTrojan]

So please explain to me what makes bodybuilders so much bigger. Let us exclude the ones on steroids for both bodybuilding and strength athletes.

P.S. I am willing to learn as long as you are willing to explain and make sense.

Generally bodybuilders aren't physically bigger than a comparable powerlifter/person, they just look bigger (especially in pictures) because their proportions make them look bigger. They still take up less physical space. Its an optical illusion, especially at normal weight levels. For example, the same guy on the left is 20lbs heavier than on the right but looks bigger in the latter:


http://www.t-nation.com/training/truth-about-bulking

In addition, most of the bodybuilders you are looking at had to train for several years and probably had to maximize strength anyways to eek out those last few pounds of muscle. The only real differences in the long run between bodybuilders and powerlifters is that bodybuilders will remain at low bf% to gain the optical illusion of size and will supplement isolation exercises to maximize hypertrophy in areas that compound lifts do not fully hit/cover. For example, to maximize hypertrophy in the glutes, you will need to add some form of hip thrust/glute bridge at some point. A powerlifter only cares about his glutes to the level it effects his core lifts, which means he won't do the extra isolation movements (because he only cares about hypertrophy in terms of functional weight/strength).

[MSKFAHIM]

So where is the difference then? Couldn't both train like 80% the same and just have different diets/supplements to look like whatever they want to look like?


P.S. Thanks for the explanations to both of you.

[GreekTrojan]

So where is the difference then? Couldn't both train like 80% the same and just have different diets/supplements to look like whatever they want to look like?


P.S. Thanks for the explanations to both of you.

Thats how fitness/bodybuilding works. People just love arguing/confusing the issue with minutia. The reason most people never reach their goals is because it takes years of hard work/proper diet (with consistency) to get there, even on the most optimized programs possible. Btw, nutrition is more important that specific workout routines, so get that figured out first (especially with fat loss, which is 90% diet, muscle building is more a 50/50 split, still in nutritions' favor slightly).

[mcapote3]

do both. wendler has a great addon calls boring but big. add 5 sets of 10 of your lifts at the end of your strength training program. but yeah ive only done strength programs ever and I got 17" biceps so im not huge but im not little either, and i rarely curl.

[BeauFlexington]

So where is the difference then? Couldn't both train like 80% the same and just have different diets/supplements to look like whatever they want to look like?

PLers train a lift: use techniques like partial-ROM deadlift to improve lockout, or use a hip abductor assistance exercise to push out of squat faster. "Looking like" anything is irrelevant.

BBers train a bodypart: use a few different tricep angles to emphasis specific muscle insertion points, for example. The training weight doesn't even matter much, as long as it's adequately fatiguing the desired muscle area.

[Jasonk282]

So where is the difference then? Couldn't both train like 80% the same and just have different diets/supplements to look like whatever they want to look like?


P.S. Thanks for the explanations to both of you.

Bodybuilder train muscles while strongmen and powerlifters train the lifts

[MSKFAHIM]

I honestly still don't understand why Strength Athletes look like twigs beside bodybuilders or big fat powerlifters. Look at this video of powerlifters, bodybuilder and a weightlifter.



Outcomes:
Robert / Weightlifter 2x210kg, 10x170kg @70kg
Romano / Powerlifter 2x220kg @90kg
Thomas / Powerlifter 1x200kg @88kg
Dorian / Bodybuilder 1x200kg @99kg (PB easy 8x200kg / injured)


The weightlifter is stronger than God Almighty himself and puts the powerlifters and bodybuilder to shame with his strength. The only logical explanation I could think of is that may be they just keep getting denser and denser with a more efficient CNS. The training style MUST have A LOT if not everything to do with it.

Is the only reason powerlifters come across as giant lards of fat because they haven't figured out the diet part yet? This just gets more and more confusing!!!

[BeauFlexington]

I honestly still don't understand why Strength Athletes look like twigs beside bodybuilders of big fat powerlifters.

• PLers don't require any particular degree of leanness to lift a barbell. BBers need ultra-low body fat for muscle definition and visibility. Does this really take a degree in Rocket Surgery to figure out?

• Although PLers don't require leanness, it's only heavy/super-heavy individuals that look astoundingly "fat". Lighter divisions just look like guys who do even lift -- which is who they are. Look at some real PL competition meets (which is not the above video).

• Leaner torsos look bigger than similarly-sized and similarly-muscled torsos with more fat, because you can see the muscles. Definition, as mentioned yesterday.

• Neural adaptation is only about 10% of total strength -- the other 90% is having the muscle to lift with.

[Jasonk282]

Is the only reason powerlifters come across as giant lards of fat because they haven't figured out the diet part yet? This just gets more and more confusing!!!

Ever hear of Dan Green or Stan Eferdring? Neither are your 'fat' powerlifters. And like in olympic lifting, powerlifting has weight classes so it pays off BIG TIME to be as strong as you can with being as lean as you can.

Now you won't see a Pler going at 5% BF because that's not a requirement. They just have to weight between their weight classes say 165-181 lbs. Now if they can get stronger at closer to 180 than 165...then it makes sence to pack on weight, no matter if they get a slight belly or not. However I challenge you to show me any powerlifter under the 195 weight class that's fat

Also bodybuilders have the appearence of looking big due to a small waist and massive delts. While powerlifters really need a strong thick waist for their lifts.

take two people...

person A 5'9" 274
person B 5'10 240

One is a 4x Mr. Olympia and the other holds powerliftng world records in 2 weight classes...can you tell which is which?

[MSKFAHIM]

• PLers don't require any particular degree of leanness to lift a barbell. BBers need ultra-low body fat for muscle definition and visibility. Does this really take a degree in Rocket Surgery to figure out?

I didn't say that I didn't understand that part of it. If we strip all fat from a powerlifter and a bodybuilder, will they look the same? To be honest, whenever one mentions powerlifter, I see this in my mind:



I don't care if on the inside I looked better than Ronnie Coleman or if I could squat the universe for reps, I do not EVER want to look like that. (No disrespect towards those who do look like that and squat a tonne of weight. Its about personal preference, not lack of respect.)

• Although PLers don't require leanness, it's only heavy/super-heavy individuals that look astoundingly "fat". Lighter divisions just look like guys who do even lift -- which is who they are. Look at some real PL competition meets (which is not the above video).

This is the thing though! I only ever see giant fat powerlifters or really tinny twiggy incredibly small powerlifters. Don't get me wrong, I have seen powerlifters with some good definitions but they were too small for me to ever want to look like them. May be you can help fix my misconceptions by answering this hypothetical:

Twin brothers who decided to commit to fitness. One committed to bodybuilding and the other to powerlifting. After 5 or 10 years of them comitting to their things, who'd look bigger and better? What I am trying to get at is, if it takes 3 times more time as a powerlifter to start looking better compared to a bodybuilder.

• Leaner torsos look bigger than similarly-sized and similarly-muscled torsos with more fat, because you can see the muscles. Definition, as mentioned yesterday.

For the same individual, not for two different guys/girls. Since I was comparing a bodybuilder with a powerlifter or a weightlifter, I didn't simply assume what you said above.

• Neural adaptation is only about 10% of total strength -- the other 90% is having the muscle to lift with.

And I don't know why, but I tend to believe that PLs just put on muscle on the wrong places (in terms of aesthetics). Although that belief isn't justified by evidence as I don't get to see where their muscles are most of the time as they are wrapped in a fat blanket.

FAHIM

[BeauFlexington]

May be you can help fix my misconceptions by answering this hypothetical ...

I think that would be pushing a rope against the wind.

Good luck wi' yo' fiddness goalz of Twenny'0h-Fourteen.

[MSKFAHIM]

Ever hear of Dan Green or Stan Eferdring? Neither are your 'fat' powerlifters. And like in olympic lifting, powerlifting has weight classes so it pays off BIG TIME to be as strong as you can with being as lean as you can.

HOLY MOTHER OF GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They are POWER-FREAKIN-LIFTERS????


Dan Green



Stan Efferding



I heard about Dan from this PL guy at the gym but never bothered to check. I assumed he'd be yet another guy eating as much as he can and training so that one day he can replace forklifts. :P

You raised more questions now.

1. Are they on steroids? (Guessing YES)
2. Does their training history consist of PowerLifting ONLY? (Guessing NO)
3. Do they get bullied in the PL arena and picked on for not looking obese?

Now you won't see a Pler going at 5% BF because that's not a requirement. They just have to weight between their weight classes say 165-181 lbs. Now if they can get stronger at closer to 180 than 165...then it makes sence to pack on weight, no matter if they get a slight belly or not. However I challenge you to show me any powerlifter under the 195 weight class that's fat

Understood. Its a cost benefit thing.

Also bodybuilders have the appearence of looking big due to a small waist and massive delts. While powerlifters really need a strong thick waist for their lifts.

I wonder if powerlifting might end up making the average ectomorph have a rectangular torso. I have no idea.

take two people...

person A 5'9" 274
person B 5'10 240

One is a 4x Mr. Olympia and the other holds powerliftng world records in 2 weight classes...can you tell which is which?

Is that 4x Mr. Olympia Phil?

I am guessing that Person B is the bodybuilder. To be honest, there is no way I can say anything about it without you letting me know about their bodyfat percentages. I might still be wrong, but at least I'd go with "low = bodybuilder, astronomically high= obese or powerlifter".



FAHIM

[MG5]

A lot of powerlifters also have a lot of muscle. A lot of them just aren't lean so the illusion isn't there.

Here's a powerlifter that decided to diet down and get lean...

Here he is with a good amount of fat on him:



Here he is after he dieted down and got lean:




A lot of muscle underneath all the fat on most powerlifters.

Now when you see guys that are pretty small without much muscle, that's probably cause 1.) Haven't trained long enough and don't eat enough to put on the size, but also the way they train, like doing singles and training movements isn't as optimal for hypertrophy although it will build muscle 2.) strength is also a result of neural adaptations 3.) They may just genetically be strong due to several reasons including leverages based on the structure of their body

[Jasonk282]

HOLY MOTHER OF GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They are POWER-FREAKIN-LIFTERS????


Dan Green



Stan Efferding



I heard about Dan from this PL guy at the gym but never bothered to check. I assumed he'd be yet another guy eating as much as he can and training so that one day he can replace forklifts. :P

You raised more questions now.

1. Are they on steroids? (Guessing YES)
2. Does their training history consist of PowerLifting ONLY? (Guessing NO)
3. Do they get bullied in the PL arena and picked on for not looking obese?

1. as far as I know, probably as Dan competes in fed that don't test...then again neither does the IFBB so...it's a wash
2. Yes, however Stan also competes in bodybuilding as well
3. Hard to bully a world record holder in 2 weight classes, but both are humble and hold many seminars to help lifters

Understood. Its a cost benefit thing.

Also it's a wikis thing too, where you get points for being lighter and putting up more weight. Lighter guys are pound for pound better than heavier guys, but heavier guys will put up more weight

I wonder if powerlifting might end up making the average ectomorph have a rectangular torso. I have no idea.

Meet Jesse Norris, 19 years old, world record holder with a 1850 total @ 198 pounds in a drug test fed...

Is that 4x Mr. Olympia Phil?

I am guessing that Person B is the bodybuilder. To be honest, there is no way I can say anything about it without you letting me know about their bodyfat percentages. I might still be wrong, but at least I'd go with "low = bodybuilder, astronomically high= obese or powerlifter".



FAHIM

Person A...5'9" 275 4x Mr. Olympia is Jay Cutler
Person B ..5'10 240 2x world record holder is Dan Green

[BioSmith91]

Generally bodybuilders aren't physically bigger than a comparable powerlifter/person, they just look bigger (especially in pictures) because their proportions make them look bigger. They still take up less physical space. Its an optical illusion, especially at normal weight levels. For example, the same guy on the left is 20lbs heavier than on the right but looks bigger in the latter:


http://www.t-nation.com/training/truth-about-bulking

In addition, most of the bodybuilders you are looking at had to train for several years and probably had to maximize strength anyways to eek out those last few pounds of muscle. The only real differences in the long run between bodybuilders and powerlifters is that bodybuilders will remain at low bf% to gain the optical illusion of size and will supplement isolation exercises to maximize hypertrophy in areas that compound lifts do not fully hit/cover. For example, to maximize hypertrophy in the glutes, you will need to add some form of hip thrust/glute bridge at some point. A powerlifter only cares about his glutes to the level it effects his core lifts, which means he won't do the extra isolation movements (because he only cares about hypertrophy in terms of functional weight/strength).

This tells most of the story, but not all of it. The other piece you are missing is that powerlifters are only interested in hypertrophy in muscles that have a direct carry over to the big three, being squats bench and deadlifts. Gigantic biceps, wide sweeping lats, and tear drop quads may look pretty, but they aren't as important as spinal erectors, glutes, traps, and triceps are to someone chasing only the highest numbers possible.

The key difference I'm alluding to is how each approach training; the powerlifter is going to chose exercises that increase his total, whereas the bodybuilder will choose exercises in a manner that leads to the most balanced overall physique. The powerlifter doesn't win competitions based on how big his arms are, and likewise the bodybuilder doesn't win competitions based on his 1RM on bench. Size is a tool for powerlifters to help add pounds on their total, whereas weight is a tool for bodybuilders to maximally stress a muscle.