corporal punishment (spanking)

[Lakersbake]

I don't agree with sawoobley and mydawgs' stances, but as a rule of thumb I take psychology studies for what they're worth... lol

Let's be clear we're not talking about experimental physics here.

Psychology studies tend to be pretty subjective. Im over this thread. Everyone knows you dont use physical force to train a doge, yet people want to use it on children. Strong everything.

[sawoobley]

O lawd thank you. As a physicist I am so aligned with the subjectivity of said studies but did not want to go there, I hope you don't mind my jumping on your band wagon.

Again thank you. You must spread some reputation.......

Welcome to the bandwagon of sanity. I cringe so hard when people read a so called scientific study and think the evidence is rock solid because it is "science" and ignore the strengths and weaknesses of the study. I don't mean to be a jerk or whatever but this problem is so widespread among people who don't know how difficult it is to scientifically provide solid evidence that supports a hypothesis. Perhaps people are more lenient in the so called soft sciences but if you were to present this kind of evidence in microbiology, chemistry, physics, biochem, etc you would get torn apart IMO.

I don't agree with sawoobley and mydawgs' stances, but as a rule of thumb I take psychology studies for what they're worth... lol

Let's be clear we're not talking about experimental physics here.

Truth. I'm sure they have some way of designing some decent experiments in psychology, at least as good as can be considering the subject, but the studies cited ITT have been of a particularly weak nature IMO.

[jafomofo]

Well it is good you are living your conviction. We should all be entitled to do so. I have two great grown kids, both highly educated and successful to date so I suppose what ever I did worked well for them. They are happy too. So I hope the same for you.

You really shouldn't be allowed to initiate violence on children. The fact that your kids succeeded despite your misguided beliefs on discipline is irrelevant.

[Austanian]

It is a needed tool when other punishments no longer work.

Time out was a go to. However, once my kid started to leave time out he was spanked.

He is turning 6 now and I haven't spanked him sense he was 4ish.

The kid needs to know that punishments aren't optional.

[mydawgs]

Welcome to the bandwagon of sanity. I cringe so hard when people read a so called scientific study and think the evidence is rock solid because it is "science" and ignore the strengths and weaknesses of the study. I don't mean to be a jerk or whatever but this problem is so widespread among people who don't know how difficult it is to scientifically provide solid evidence that supports a hypothesis. Perhaps people are more lenient in the so called soft sciences but if you were to present this kind of evidence in microbiology, chemistry, physics, biochem, etc you would get torn apart IMO.



Truth. I'm sure they have some way of designing some decent experiments in psychology, at least as good as can be considering the subject, but the studies cited ITT have been of a particularly weak nature IMO.

Well I have to say I always enjoy a spirited debate with level heads and heart felt conviction. It reaffirms my faith in people being able to exchange despite difference. It is always a learning thus growth experience for me. You have a great evening and keep the science of it all on the straight and narrow....and you are 100% correct about substantiating ones position in the more rigid sciences

[Messier_Object]

no, its not. spanking is detrimental. This is a fact regardless of how much anecdotal foolishness people want to regurgitate. I believed that before I became a father and believe it moreso since I have become a father. Spanking is lazy parenting.

It's like they want to believe 1+1=3 despite every evidence that it's not in a Big Lebowski "Well, that's like your opinion man" mentality. I think it's because they can't remove themselves from the idea that in the moment of spanking, the parent failed in that instance. It's not that the parents are failures in general, but that IN that instance they failed to convey the appropriate message to their child in a reasonable way for a child to understand. They simply can't or don't want to believe their grandparents, parents, and/or themselves have failed in a moment.

The argument for pro-spanking, from what I've seen, is always anecdotal or confirmation bias. This is coming from someone that was once pro-spanking. I was spanked and turned out OK, but looking back as a grown educated man, I realized WHEN I was spanked, it was simply because my mother failed to parent correctly in that situation. Not that she was a bad parent, by a long shot.

[jafomofo]

Wouldn't say lazy, or at least not for the generations of our parents. Ignorant parenting is a much more appropriate term.

I disagree. It takes time and effort to discipline a child without smacking them. They aren't dogs and are capable of understanding, at some point, more than conditioned response. The motivating factor in most people that hit their children is establishing an immediate fear response in their child to curb behavior through classical conditioning. That is not beneficial as has been indicated by the studies already posted and manifests negatively later in life. Sitting down with a young child and working on their behavior consistently over time is hard but worthwhile.

[Austanian]

Psychology studies tend to be pretty subjective. Im over this thread. Everyone knows you dont use physical force to train a doge, yet people want to use it on children. Strong everything.

Some of the most successful methods use physical force. (On occasion)

I get it is not popular now a days, but most of the best retrievers ever were trained through a method that uses physical force. (Water Dog, Gun Dog, ECT)

[Lakersbake]

Some of the most successful methods use physical force. (On occasion)

I get it is not popular now a days, but most of the best retrievers ever were trained through a method that uses physical force. (Water Dog, Gun Dog, ECT)

No one uses violence on dogs anymore, its a thing of the past.

[mydawgs]

You really shouldn't be allowed to initiate violence on children. The fact that your kids succeeded despite your misguided beliefs on discipline is irrelevant.

Well like I said, your beliefs have to move you forward and I will never be presumptuous enough to say I know what is better for you, it is ashamed you cannot afford me the same latitude. But such is life.

[Posthardcore]

It is a needed tool when other punishments no longer work.

Time out was a go to. However, once my kid started to leave time out he was spanked.

He is turning 6 now and I haven't spanked him sense he was 4ish.

The kid needs to know that punishments aren't optional.

But that's really only rationalization.

What do you do when spanking doesn't work? You do it harder?

IDBLOL brought up a good point here, summed up by ''lead by example'' and ''be a role model''.

Just to throw it out there, but I assert that this is not the case after the child gains a measure of personal independence. I believe teenage rebellion is what happens when kids finally look at their parents through the eyes of strangers and realize that not only are they not anybody special to be revered and obeyed, but they're actually pretty sad and boring.

I know a guy who is super strong, ripped to shreds, extremely handsome, intelligent, extremely morally clean and virtuous and extremely rich. His wife is similarly beautiful, morally clean, athletic and intelligent. Those two have the best parent-child relations I've ever seen, and I suspect no small part of it comes from the fact that they are basically genetic royalty: most of the people who know them revere them as some kind of superheroes, and their kids do as well. They are objectively admirable so their kids persist in liking them past the age when they are forced to pretend to. They obey them, I believe, because the advice they give their kids is aimed at helping them to become kickass too.

.

I'm really curious to know the kinds of situations that would warrant spanking. Give me an example....??

[jafomofo]

Well like I said, your beliefs have to move you forward and I will never be presumptuous enough to say I know what is better for you, it is ashamed you cannot afford me the same latitude. But such is life.

Why would you be afforded latitude for hitting your child? Willful ignorance is not a virtue.

[mydawgs]

No one uses violence on dogs anymore, its a thing of the past.

Well actually they do, it is called the "yank and crank" method and it proves to be faulty on the competition field time and time again vice the more strategic methods of training. In short the dog does not see the handler as it's undisputed leader in stressful situations. So draw your own conclusions.

[jafomofo]

What do you do when spanking doesn't work? You do it harder?

More interesting is what do you do when spanking alters behavior and begets additional negative behavior. You hit your kid for taking a cookie without asking, next time he sneaks it so you hit him some more. gj dad. You taught him that lesson and now he gets hit some more because you couldn't be bothered to do your job.

[mydawgs]

Why would you be afforded latitude for hitting your child? Willful ignorance is not a virtue.

Well one might say your lack of understanding of my life and my methods would point to your willful ignorance, thus rush to judgement.

[Kiwi_Fella]

Didnt think anything of spanking/hitting kids when I didn't have them. I was hit/spanked by my parents. Now I have a child, I get really angry when I hear of parents resorting to spanking/hitting their kids. Havent read the thread, but no doubt you have cowards posting who have and are doing it.

[Messier_Object]

Well actually they do, it is called the "yank and crank" method and it proves to be faulty on the competition field time and time again vice the more strategic methods of training. In short the dog does not see the handler as it's undisputed leader in stressful situations. So draw your own conclusions.

Yet it's perfectly acceptable to hit a growing person; one that can reason on a much deeper level than a dog? lol.... You accept that hitting a dog yields negative behaviors in the future, but dismiss that hitting children yields negative behaviors in the future. Why?

[Posthardcore]

More interesting is what do you do when spanking alters behavior and begets additional negative behavior. You hit your kid for taking a cookie without asking, next time he sneaks it so you hit him some more. gj dad. You taught him that lesson and now he gets hit some more because you couldn't be bothered to do your job.

So now, the kid learns to lie in order to hide his negative behaviours because he fears dad. When the kid grows up he doesn't give a chit anymore because he started lifting and can physically confront his dad.

[mydawgs]

Yet it's perfectly acceptable to hit a growing person; one that can reason on a much deeper level than a dog? lol.... You accept that hitting a dog yields negative behaviors in the future, but dismiss that hitting children yields negative behaviors in the future. Why?

I simply state it is a method of discipline that may be used effectively. I don't advocate for or against it, I say it is a tool you may choose to use or not. It is your choice as a parent. As far as dog training I was not taught the yank and crank method so I have no personal experience with it with mydawgs, they responded to other methods that were very effective. It is all about what works.

[Posthardcore]

I simply state it is a method of discipline that may be used effectively. I don't advocate for or against it, I say it is a tool you may choose to use or not. It is your choice as a parent. As far as dog training I was not taught the yank and crank method so I have no personal experience with it with mydawgs, they responded to other methods that were very effective. It is all about what works.

Lol ''mydawgs'' that was cute.

[Austanian]

No one uses violence on dogs anymore, its a thing of the past.

Not in the game dog fields. Most world class retrievers are still trained from a book published in 1964.

Hell even if I didn't use "Violence" on dogs the other dogs do. My 8 month old puppy gets nipped in the ear frequently for being annoying. After a week long camping trip she knew what she could and could not get away with. This isn't mentally damaging it is learning.

[Austanian]

But that's really only rationalization.

What do you do when spanking doesn't work? You do it harder?

IDBLOL brought up a good point here, summed up by ''lead by example'' and ''be a role model''.

I'm really curious to know the kinds of situations that would warrant spanking. Give me an example....??

Get a 3 year old to follow by example. Good luck with that...

There are a few reasons to use spanking.

1. Immediate danger. Even the anti-spanking studies still do show that corporal punishment is the quickest way to stop a behavior, but it has negative long term sides. Electrical Socket for example.

2. To enforce authority. Once the kid decides he doesn't have to follow his punishment you need to show them that you mean business.

3. I used it to stop biting. He went through a few month stage where he bit people. He got kicked out of daycare, because of this. I had to burn a week of vacation time at work because we had no one to watch the kid while he was "suspended". He really quickly learned that biting hurts him and stopped doing it.

I haven't spanked him in several years now...

[Posthardcore]

1. Immediate danger. Even the anti-spanking studies still do show that corporal punishment is the quickest way to stop a behavior, but it has negative long term sides. Electrical Socket for example.

How about safety covers?

2. To enforce authority. Once the kid decides he doesn't have to follow his punishment you need to show them that you mean business.

IMO, teaching your kid that the proper way to enforce authority is to use one's physical advantage is just bad parenting. When would you want to ''enforce'' authority?

3. I used it to stop biting. He went through a few month stage where he bit people. He got kicked out of daycare, because of this. I had to burn a week of vacation time at work because we had no one to watch the kid while he was "suspended". He really quickly learned that biting hurts him and stopped doing it.

http://www.babycenter.com/404_my-chi...-back_69171.bc



I'm glad to hear you haven't hit him in several years now.

[Messier_Object]

Get a 3 year old to follow by example. Good luck with that...

There are a few reasons to use spanking.

1. Immediate danger. Even the anti-spanking studies still do show that corporal punishment is the quickest way to stop a behavior, but it has negative long term sides. Electrical Socket for example.

This will all be anecdotal. Forewarned. I have 2 sons that are now 18 & 16 months old. We have tons of electrical outlets. My oldest quickly figured out how to get the covers off. I was able to quickly get him and the other to not mess with them without spanking.

2. To enforce authority. Once the kid decides he doesn't have to follow his punishment you need to show them that you mean business.

And once he decides he is too big, strong, or old for physical punishment? Are you just gonna hit the child more or harder?

3. I used it to stop biting. He went through a few month stage where he bit people. He got kicked out of daycare, because of this. I had to burn a week of vacation time at work because we had no one to watch the kid while he was "suspended". He really quickly learned that biting hurts him and stopped doing it.

I haven't spanked him in several years now...

My oldest was a biter, and that boy has some chompers on him. I never needed to hit him to stop the behavior. Be a reasonable, logical, and grown man instead of a person getting out witted by a toddler.

[Austanian]

How about safety covers?

IMO, teaching your kid that the proper way to enforce authority is to use one's physical advantage is just bad parenting. When would you want to ''enforce'' authority?

http://www.babycenter.com/404_my-chi...-back_69171.bc

I'm glad to hear you haven't hit him in several years now.

1. Because I can not protect him in every environment. I baby proofed my house, but what happens when you go to a friends... That was just one example. A measured response is better than a potentially lethal one.

2. Because violence is the way the WHOLE WORLD works. Governments, Police forces, Animals... Every wrong behavior you ever do has a threat of force attached to stop it. Go steal some chit and see how long it takes before a policeman with a gun shows up...

3. The article is wrong. The kid did stop very quickly. Physical response is the way all animal parents work. Dog is playing to rough it gets nipped...

This will all be anecdotal. Forewarned. I have 2 sons that are now 18 & 16 months old. We have tons of electrical outlets. My oldest quickly figured out how to get the covers off. I was able to quickly get him and the other to not mess with them without spanking.

And once he decides he is too big, strong, or old for physical punishment? Are you just gonna hit the child more or harder?

My oldest was a biter, and that boy has some chompers on him. I never needed to hit him to stop the behavior. Be a reasonable, logical, and grown man instead of a person getting out witted by a toddler.

So you went the slow education route and he didn't get shocked to death. I went the quick route and he didn't get shocked to death.

You miss the part where I haven't had to spank him in years? It was very effective for a defiant stage (About 2 months) and showed the kid that I have authority and if you do not do what I say bad things happen. Several years later he still knows dad means business.

Mammals use teeth as one of their first weapons, by the time he started biting it wasn't cute nibbles and it was against other kids... The behavior needed to stop NOW. Not 3 months from now.

You can decide to play stupid games or you can stop the behavior. Physical punishment is one tool of many, but once it was used the non physical punishment became much more effective. When I sent the 4 year old to time out he ran. When his mom sent him, he didn't go or argued about it. Eventually she used me as a tool (Do I need to get dad?)

[Posthardcore]

2. Because violence is the way the WHOLE WORLD works. Governments, Police forces, Animals... Every wrong behavior you ever do has a threat of force attached to stop it. Go steal some chit and see how long it takes before a policeman with a gun shows up...

This analogy doesn't work. We use violence and threats to enforece rights, not authority.

Also, not sure why you bring up wld animals into the mix here lulz

[Lakersbake]

You can decide to play stupid games or you can stop the behavior. Physical punishment is one tool of many, but once it was used the non physical punishment became much more effective. When I sent the 4 year old to time out he ran. When his mom sent him, he didn't go or argued about it. Eventually she used me as a tool (Do I need to get dad?)

What? You just contradicted yourself. You cant say that physical punishment is one tool of many when you just called the rest of the tools "playing games"

[Austanian]

This analogy doesn't work. We use violence and threats to enforece rights, not authority.

Also, not sure why you bring up wld animals into the mix here lulz

Authority - the power or right to give orders, make decisions, and enforce obedience.

The threat of violence is always there...

I bring up wild animals, because toddlers basically are wild animals. Furthermore, despite the hint of polish humans put on when it really comes down to it we are all just animals. Our authority comes from the threat of violence just like it always has.

[Posthardcore]

Authority - the power or right to give orders, make decisions, and enforce obedience.

The threat of violence is always there...

I bring up wild animals, because toddlers basically are wild animals. Furthermore, despite the hint of polish humans put on when it really comes down to it we are all just animals. Our authority comes from the threat of violence just like it always has.

Several things here. First I was confused at you bringing animals because that would be an appeal to nature, logical fallacy.

Now authority doesn't always come from the threat of violence. It can also come from respect and love. It can come, in the adult world, via voluntary association too.

[Austanian]

What? You just contradicted yourself. You cant say that physical punishment is one tool of many when you just called the rest of the tools "playing games"

You are correct. My bad.

You used a method that requires much more time and produces less predictable results.

I used a method that is very quick and produces very predictable results, but MAY produce negative long term sides.