Jacob Wilson's Keto Study on advanced athletes?

[Mrpb]

I was listening to a podcast from April 2014. Jacob Wilson was being interviewed. He talks about a study that shows advanced lifters dropping body fat and gaining muscle on a ketogenic diet.

Does anyone know where I can find this study?

The podcast is here: http://appliedmusclescience.com/112-...esearch-part-2

He mentions it on bb.com too:

Actually I just completed a study on ketogenic dieting. The first study ever in bodybuilders. We actually found that they didn't lose any muscle. It just appeared that way because their muscle carb stores were low. But when they carbed up they had actually gained muscle! We will be presenting this data at ISSN national conference and Ill likely publish it this year!

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/ask-...-lose-fat.html

[CrayJay]

I was listening to a podcast from April 2014. Jacob Wilson was being interviewed. He talks about a study that shows advanced lifters dropping body fat and gaining muscle on a ketogenic diet.

Does anyone know where I can find this study?

The podcast is here: http://appliedmusclescience.com/112-...esearch-part-2

He mentions it on bb.com too:

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/ask-...-lose-fat.html

Bump for the sake of curiosity. You always manage to peak my scientific curiosity with links of this nature!

[EvogenMatt]

I can't remember the source, but I remember hearing something similar, with the specifics being that they had them on a back-loading type program with an emphasis on increasing insulin sensitivity, attempting to train the body to do more with less carbs. Makes sense.

[digistp]

Did you PM Pug? He might know.

[Mrpb]

Did you PM Pug? He might know.

Not yet. Will do. Was thinking the same.

On the podcast they said the keto group lost 4* times a much fat.

Edit: I may have misheard this, it was actually 2 times as much instead of 4..

[WonderPug]

The effects on dry muscle weight and adiposity is something very frequently observed clinically in the obese and even in the athletic community (though a ketogenic diet is vastly less common in the latter community).

Heck, even this study published a week ago shows this on a low carb, not even ketogenic, diet (if you read the full-text).

That said, I don't recall reading any peer-reviewed work specific to the bodybuilding demographic.

[Mrpb]

That said, I don't recall reading any peer-reviewed work specific to the bodybuilding demographic.

Strange. I wonder what's taking them so long to publish this study.

In the podcast they say it should have been presented on the ISSN 2014 convention. But I don't think that happened, otherwise we would have heard more about it, I would expect.

[WonderPug]

^^^ I don't know, but you can ping him via email and ask.

[Mrpb]

^^^ I don't know, but you can ping him via email and ask.

He replied promptly and said it might take another 3 - 6 months until publication.

[WonderPug]

He replied promptly and said it might take another 3 - 6 months until publication.

It will be an interesting study to read.

[-TheKingPin-]

Was it consistently ketogenic or were they refeeding with carbs weekly thus following a CKD protocol?

[Mrpb]

Was it consistently ketogenic or were they refeeding with carbs weekly thus following a CKD protocol?

I think there were weekly refeeds included. I'll probably have time to listen to the full podcast today.

[dmacdonal9]

Didn't know Wilson was doing this. Interesting. Reminds me of this one: http://www.jissn.com/content/9/1/34

[rhadam]

Definitely interested on anything involving trained athletes. We need more of these studies but they're just to hard to fund. If it doesn't involve cancer or diabetes, best of luck getting a grant.

[Mrpb]

For those who didn't listen, some of the things mentioned by Jacob: (paraphrasing)
'this is what we found:
You can build muscle on a ketogenic diet
Keto is very conducive to losing fat, even at maintenance calories
After they carbed up their weight was back to the beginning, but they had lost fat and build muscle.
The carb group build muscle and lost a little bit of fat.
11 week study, 2 week acclimation period, 8 weeks of training.
After 8 weeks, the keto group lost double the fat as the carb group, however they gained about half the muscle. Then we carbed them up for one week, after that they had gained just as much muscle as the carb group.'

[rhadam]

For those who didn't listen, some of the things mentioned by Jacob: (paraphrasing)
'this is what we found:
You can build muscle on a ketogenic diet
Keto is very conducive to losing fat, even at maintenance calories
After they carbed up their weight was back to the beginning, but they had lost fat and build muscle.
The carb group build muscle and lost a little bit of fat.
11 week study, 2 week acclimation period, 8 weeks of training.
After 8 weeks, the keto group lost double the fat as the carb group, however they gained about half the muscle. Then we carbed them up for one week, after that they had gained just as much muscle as the carb group.'

I have an issue with this statement. Really need to see the data here on muscle gain in both groups.

[XinApoK]

I just want to be clear on this so if i can get a confirmation i would appreciate it.

The keto group gained half the muscle of the carb group. Then the keto group did a week long carb up and caught up to the carb group in terms of muscle gain.

Was the muscle gained after the carb up gained immediately following said carb up (1 -4 days) or did they see the muscle increase over time?



I really want to read this study as this pertains to me in a lot of ways.

[Mrpb]

@ rhadam, xinapok, the way I heard it they were using weekly DEXA scans. As far as I know this means that depleted glycogen will be seen as less muscle. So at the DEXA scan right after the 8 weeks, when glycogen was depleted it appeared as if they had only gained half the muscle. Then after the carb up, at the next DEXA scan one week later, they had the same amount of muscle.

[EjnarKolinkar]

I think there were weekly refeeds included. I'll probably have time to listen to the full podcast today.

Oooh, lets hope not. Would be much cooler if they went straight through.

Sub'd

[Mrpb]

Oooh, lets hope not. Would be much cooler if they went straight through.

Sub'd

Forgot to correct that, from what I heard they went straight through and only carbed up at the end of the 8 weeks. Not 100% sure on this one.

[lee__d]

It's water weight, it's always water weight. water

[XinApoK]

It's water weight, it's always water weight. water

I doubt that a study done with DEXA scan and a serious team would overlook water weight. That seems like basic knowledge to me as it is one of the first things I learned about keto.

[lee__d]

I doubt that a study done with DEXA scan and a serious team would overlook water weight. That seems like basic knowledge to me as it is one of the first things I learned about keto.

I was being kinda tongue-in-cheek, but anything is speculation until we see the full text anyway.

[rhadam]

@ rhadam, xinapok, the way I heard it they were using weekly DEXA scans. As far as I know this means that depleted glycogen will be seen as less muscle. So at the DEXA scan right after the 8 weeks, when glycogen was depleted it appeared as if they had only gained half the muscle. Then after the carb up, at the next DEXA scan one week later, they had the same amount of muscle.

That would make sense. Really interested in this study lol.

[lee__d]

It's like the old supp ads "study shoes 5lb increase in lean body mass".... well, water is lean body mass.

[Mrpb]

It's like the old supp ads "study shoes 5lb increase in lean body mass".... well, water is lean body mass.

I don't think that was the case. From what I heard: They were carbed at the beginning of the study and at the end. Difference: fat lost, muscle gained. The carb group also lost some fast, apparently half of the keto group.

[WonderPug]

For a proper analysis, the study should use whole body MRI, not DEXA, in part because I'd like to see deltas in subcutaneous and visceral adipose tissue.

[unstrong]

Tagging/subscribing for discussion when the publication comes out.

[tbarabash]

Tagged for later. Personally Keto diets, nothxjeff, but for those that can do them properly this is great to hear. My willpower isn't strong enough to keto.

[DrJacobWilson]

Was it consistently ketogenic or were they refeeding with carbs weekly thus following a CKD protocol?

Hello everyone. We did a strict ketogenic diet. 2 week adaptation period and 8 weeks of training followed by a 1 week carb overfeed. Basically we found that subjects in the keto during the first 8 weeks lost about 8 lbs of fat while gaining a good amount of lean mass. They also gained the same amount of strength as the western group. When we carbed these guys up so their glycogen levels were full their lean mass gains were higher than traditional carbohydrate dieting. Only problem is we definately see that a rapid switch from keto to carbs started to lead to noticable fat accumulation on our dexa. This tells us the following

* Ketogenic dieting in well trained guys can lead to as good or possible better gains in lean mass as has been seem in untrained individuals (ours were well trained)
* it can be beneficial for fat loss even on maintenece calories (which our guys were on) in a lean population
* But you cannot just rapidly transition back to carbs cause your body isnt adapted to this

As many of you know the review process when submitting a paper for publication is a very long process but the paper will likely be fully published in 3-6 months.

Also to answer specific questions. Calories, and protein were controlled for as was total training volume

The study we are doing this semester involves cyclic, vs western, vs. normal keto dieting with a calorie restriction on fat loss during hardcore training. We will likely be discussin the results at a conference held at my university of tampa february 22 before anyone else knows about it. Thanks for your interest. We have a long way to go in studying this topic but are excited to explore it