Light behing the neck overhead presses = DANGEROUS?

[angrypenguin54]

Everyone's shoulder anatomy is different. I am prone to impingement and have to watch what movements I do closely or risk another surgery. Over the past few years I have learned a lot on balancing exercises for anatomy and wish I could go back in time and tell my younger self to spend a hell of a lot more time pulling than I did.

The problem is that many of the signs of damage dont show until later in life and years of abuse.

I agree that the benefit to risk ratio makes behind the neck movements just not worth it. I would say the same for upright rows.

[v4lu3s]

in front is a mostly anterior delt exercise with assistance from the other 2 delts, and with a slight lean back also draws pects in. behind brings the lateral delts into the forefront of effort, behind the neck was long a heavily used exercise by the classic bodybuilding world to really add width to your shoulders. they CAN be bad but each person has to determine to themselves the risk and their body's capabilities. you have to consider that each person has different physical limitations and what works for one will not work for all. making blanket statements to everyone because of your OWN experience is a big fallacy.
If you think about it doing dumbell over head presses most people have the db's even with or slightly behind their ears. That is going to put the same kind of strain as a behind the neck with a barbell, and I do 70+ for 10+ with dumbells but still dont feel comfortable with the rom with a barbell.

if you base your logic solely on risk you should not be doing deadlifts, squats, or any other heavy exercise at all.

[angrypenguin54]

I agree DBs may be the best solution as it allows the shoulders the freedom to almost to self correct through the movement.

I disagree about the risks to reward ratio of DLs and squats though. You can easily add/adjust movements to make up for the difference between a shoulder press in front versus behind the neck.

DLs and squats are worth getting your technique down as there are no other movements that give the benefit to work ratio of those two. There will always be those with injuries that cant do them, but for the vast majority of anyone caring about their overall fitness I believe squats and DLs should be part of their program.

[DuracellBunny]

Without getting in to the "are they bad for your shoulders" argument, here is how to lessen potential risks:

Lower the bar to the bottom of your ears, no further. That's it.

Some people can go all the way to pressing from squat position with no problems, but the bottom of the ear is a fairly good place safety wise. Take an empty bar, broomstick, whatever and do the exercise side on to a mirror (or film it if that's your thing). Down to the bottom of your ears, the bar will move in a plane and below that you will see a secondary motion introduced as your shoulders start to rotate. That rotation is what causes most of the damage in people that are susceptible.

As with anything, it varies between people, but bottom of the ears is where the load and force curves change.

[machined]

TN's EMG study found BNP's to show better peak activation than front presses. I think front presses are a better compound/ going heavier, but BNP's a close second as an isolation x with lower weight/ higher reps. Anecdotal - shoulders look different and better when BNP's are added in addition to front presses. Alt theory - simply more volume causes different or better shoulder development, not the addition of BNP's specifically. I'm not gifted in shoulders. I'll do whatever is plausible to get the most development possible. Fuk risk. If I can't have killer delts, I quit.

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_...trap_exercises

[DuracellBunny]

TN's EMG study found BNP's to show better peak activation than front presses. I think front presses are a better compound/ going heavier, but BNP's a close second as an isolation x with lower weight/ higher reps. Anecdotal - shoulders look different and better when BNP's are added in addition to front presses. Alt theory - simply more volume causes different or better shoulder development, not the addition of BNP's specifically. I'm not gifted in shoulders. I'll do whatever is plausible to get the most development possible. Fuk risk. If I can't have killer delts, I quit.

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_...trap_exercises

Just a FYI, every shoulder press is a compound. If you only use 1 joint it's isolation; multiple joints = compound.

[machined]

Just a FYI, every shoulder press is a compound. If you only use 1 joint it's isolation; multiple joints = compound.

Should emphasize that the first 10 -15" of BNP (imo) is a unique muscle builder. Very difficult to recruit other muscles from that position and in that range (as opposed to front presses). Meaning, quasi isolation for those that consider compounds - multi muscle v just multi joint.

[DuracellBunny]

Should emphasize that the first 10 -15" of BNP (imo) is a unique muscle builder. Very difficult to recruit other muscles from that position and in that range (as opposed to front presses). Meaning, quasi isolation for those that consider compounds - multi muscle v just multi joint.

You are vastly underestimating tricep involvement. For most people the whole exercise is only 18"-20" inches (it can be less than 15") and you are talking about 1/2-3/4 of that. You need to sit yourself down in the corner and repeat to yourself "I will not post stupid things on the internet".

[orb85750]

Got the old tsk tsk tsk doing Light behing the neck overhead presses. I also do light behind the neck cable pull downs.
I go light because I'm using the Serge Nubret training technique.
Is there a danger I don't know of doing this old school movement?

No danger for me, but listen to what your shoulders are telling you! (Don't do anything that causes you obvious joint pain.)

[anonymous]

No bueno for me, I only do superslow cable presses now in a pain free range of motion , after laterals.

Just not worth chewing up an already heavily worked joint IMO. If you're fortunate enough to have incredible thoracic mobility and bulletproof shoulders they might be ok but where's the tangible benefit in adding size vs safer variants?

[ISAID69]

Damn this thread's really got me thinking if I should continue with them, I manage 50kg x 3 sets of 10 and that is where the shoulders feel comfortable. I admit I do have some joint pain the next day after shoulders though, I'm going to skip them for a while and see if the joint pain goes away. Worth a try IMO, I don't want to land up needing shoulder surgery at some point for an injury that could have been avoided.

[Smelly bull]

What is the point of doing an exercise so light that it does not challenge you?

At the end of the day, this rings true.

It is all about risk vs reward...I used to do behind the neck presses. High risk for sure.....I switched to face pulls and a modified row. Lower risk, but I believe better reward. Works for me..

As someone else said, mileage will very.

[Looton]

TN's EMG study found BNP's to show better peak activation than front presses. I think front presses are a better compound/ going heavier, but BNP's a close second as an isolation x with lower weight/ higher reps. Anecdotal - shoulders look different and better when BNP's are added in addition to front presses. Alt theory - simply more volume causes different or better shoulder development, not the addition of BNP's specifically. I'm not gifted in shoulders. I'll do whatever is plausible to get the most development possible. Fuk risk. If I can't have killer delts, I quit.

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_...trap_exercises

Interesting study, thanks! Results from the srudy;

"Based on this experiment, here are the top three exercises in terms of mean and peak activity for each muscle part:

Front Delt

Mean: Seated Behind Neck Press, Seated Military Press, Incline Press
Peak: Seated Behind Neck Press, Standing DB Military Press, Incline Press

Mid Delt

Mean: Band Face Pull, Lateral Raise, Seated Behind Neck Press
Peak: Band Face Pull, Lateral Raise, Cable Lateral Raise

Rear Delt

Mean: Band Face Pull, Bent Over Rear Delt Raise, Prone Rear Delt Raise
Peak: Band Face Pull, Bent Over Rear Delt Raise, Hanging Row

Upper Trap

Mean: BB Shrug, Cable Lateral Raise, Standing Military Press
Peak: Cable Lateral Raise, BB Shrug, Seated Behind Neck Press"

[Looton]

Here's my reasoning for adding behind the head (I limit the ROM to avoid my personal danger zone) movements back in;

"1. PRESS BEHIND NECK
You may be wondering why on earth am I starting with a dangerous exercise. The press-behind-neck is one which is unlikely to be featured in modern books of training exercises because it has been held responsible for more wrecked shoulders than any other shoulder exercise. However, poor technique is often the underlying cause than the exercise itself. All exercise have their risks and granted the behind-the-neck press may be more risky than others. A lot of old-school bodybuilders built their delts with this exercise and a lot of reckless lifters wrecked their shoulders on the same exercise. "

http://bodybuilding-mauritius.blogsp...ises-part.html

"Purpose of exercise:
Elbow positioning dictates what deltoid head get greater emphasis. When performing behind-the-neck presses the elbows move out to the sides. This involves the medial (outer) deltoid head to a greater extent. Conversely, when doing presses to the front, the elbows are drawn forward and this works the front deltoids to a greater extent."


"2. BRADFORD PRESS
The Bradford press has a reputation of being another dangerous exercise but nothing can be further from the truth. Improper execution is to blame for damaged shoulder joints rather than the exercise itself. The Bradford press is in fact a good exercise for rotator cuff rehabilitation and for increasing shoulder joint mobility. The Bradford press was invented by the weightlifter Jim Bradford who was famous in the 1960s. The movement is fairly simple and it involves alternating between a front and a behind-the-neck barbell press every repetition."

"Purpose of exercise and pointers:
The Bradford press intends to keep constant tension on the deltoids. Secondly, the exercise is very helpful in developing shoulder flexibility and strengthening your rotator cuff. Alternating between a front and behind-the-neck press makes sure your side delts are also getting work because they are involved to a greater extent in behind-the-neck presses. Alternating position during each rep ensures that you stick to proper form as well as it disrupts any rhythm that may develop if you were to perform either front or rear presses. It is important to select a weight which allows you to perform 10-15 reps. Do not be overzealous and take too heavy. "

*NOTE the light weight these guys use - like a broomstick in relation to my size*



And finally, the Great Serge Nubret. The reason I changed my routine radically and am making great gains. And pain-free joints after years of pain. I do lots of support muscle movements and consider light behind the head movements as developing better ROM and hard-to-hit small support muscles. Surprisingly my stubborn delts are getting a decent cap now;


"5. THE NUBRET SIDE LATERALS
The credits to this unconventional way of doing side laterals go to the late Serge Nubret. It was also made popular by Arnold (and what didn't Arnold make popular in bodybuilding?). Side laterals work the side deltoids to a greater degree and having personally tried this movement I can say that the involvement of the traps, which can steal a bit from side laterals, is nearly non-existent..."

[Looton]

Should emphasize that the first 10 -15" of BNP (imo) is a unique muscle builder. Very difficult to recruit other muscles from that position and in that range (as opposed to front presses). Meaning, quasi isolation for those that consider compounds - multi muscle v just multi joint.

I read your first post as 'focused' rather than the strict definition of 'isolation' - as in 'isolation movement'... I knew what you were saying.

btw- Behind the neck FORCES me to make a better mind-muscle connection. And I need to improve that each rep.

[induced_drag]

Off topic rant:


I have to just say this..... All the time I see guys talking about how they need to 'bring up' a particular muscle (delts, upper or lower chest, tris, bis...etc). When really they should just be focusing on gaining overall size. I am sorry, but if you are not even close to peaking on what mass you can carry, STOP over thinking it! Just concentrate on getting bigger and stronger overall.

These same guys talking about isolating a particular area for concentration will be 20-30lbs lighter then many on here (for their given frame). Most of these same people focus ZERO effort on proper caloric surpluses. They stay the same weight week after week, month after month. (just a hint, if you are out of the newb stage, trying to gain mass, and you have not seen the scale move in two weeks.....you are doing it wrong...or terribly ineffectively).

Sorry, but a guy who is barely carrying any significant LBM talking about 'targeting' a particular muscle, needs to learn NOT to focus so much. You need to 'target' like a shotgun! Squats, deadlifts, bench, ohp, pullups, bent rows.....minor iso work....done.


Just seeing this over an over..... Maybe I over simplify things at times, but very few people are truly in need of isolation of a particular muscle. Overall development is the goal. When you start to get significant development, you can then make some adjustments...still most times it is not even necessary unless you are pursuing true 'bodybuilding'. (which almost ZERO people on here do)

Sorry for the rant. Go lift some heavy stuff...and stop over thinking!!!!

[Looton]

Off topic rant:


I have to just say this..... All the time I see guys talking about how they need to 'bring up' a particular muscle (delts, upper or lower chest, tris, bis...etc). When really they should just be focusing on gaining overall size. I am sorry, but if you are not even close to peaking on what mass you can carry, STOP over thinking it! Just concentrate on getting bigger and stronger overall.

These same guys talking about isolating a particular area for concentration will be 20-30lbs lighter then many on here (for their given frame). Most of these same people focus ZERO effort on proper caloric surpluses. They stay the same weight week after week, month after month. (just a hint, if you are out of the newb stage, trying to gain mass, and you have not seen the scale move in two weeks.....you are doing it wrong...or terribly ineffectively).

Sorry, but a guy who is barely carrying any significant LBM talking about 'targeting' a particular muscle, needs to learn NOT to focus so much. You need to 'target' like a shotgun! Squats, deadlifts, bench, ohp, pullups, bent rows.....minor iso work....done.


Just seeing this over an over..... Maybe I over simplify things at times, but very few people are truly in need of isolation of a particular muscle. Overall development is the goal. When you start to get significant development, you can then make some adjustments...still most times it is not even necessary unless you are pursuing true 'bodybuilding'. (which almost ZERO people on here do)

Sorry for the rant. Go lift some heavy stuff...and stop over thinking!!!!

douchebag reply and not useful at all. you judge with a ton of off-base assumptions.
i have some health issues and i'm still making great gains. people tell me i'm ripped, buff, etc. lately. it's working for me and i'm diggin bodybuilding.

i'm deep into nutrition as well. i like it. you do what is good for you and i'll do what i need to do for me.

where's the ignore button?

[DuracellBunny]

Off topic rant:


I have to just say this..... All the time I see guys talking about how they need to 'bring up' a particular muscle (delts, upper or lower chest, tris, bis...etc). When really they should just be focusing on gaining overall size. I am sorry, but if you are not even close to peaking on what mass you can carry, STOP over thinking it! Just concentrate on getting bigger and stronger overall.

These same guys talking about isolating a particular area for concentration will be 20-30lbs lighter then many on here (for their given frame). Most of these same people focus ZERO effort on proper caloric surpluses. They stay the same weight week after week, month after month. (just a hint, if you are out of the newb stage, trying to gain mass, and you have not seen the scale move in two weeks.....you are doing it wrong...or terribly ineffectively).

Sorry, but a guy who is barely carrying any significant LBM talking about 'targeting' a particular muscle, needs to learn NOT to focus so much. You need to 'target' like a shotgun! Squats, deadlifts, bench, ohp, pullups, bent rows.....minor iso work....done.


Just seeing this over an over..... Maybe I over simplify things at times, but very few people are truly in need of isolation of a particular muscle. Overall development is the goal. When you start to get significant development, you can then make some adjustments...still most times it is not even necessary unless you are pursuing true 'bodybuilding'. (which almost ZERO people on here do)

Sorry for the rant. Go lift some heavy stuff...and stop over thinking!!!!

Undiplomatic (not necessarily a bad thing), but true in many cases.

This will continue to happen for 2 reasons though.

1) the 80/20 rule (people seem fundamentally unable to grasp the rule)

2) they have an excuse. The more precise and complicated they make things, then the less it's their fault when they show no progress. If things are very simple and they make no progress then they have nowhere to hide.

[angrypenguin54]

2 things -

Its fun to discuss the details at times as we are all have some passion for this and its a good way to kill some time.

In reality just lift heavy, eat and rest is all really 99% of us needs to worry about, but its hard to keep forums lively with reality.

[kimm4]

douchebag reply and not useful at all. you judge with a ton of off-base assumptions.
i have some health issues and i'm still making great gains. people tell me i'm ripped, buff, etc. lately. it's working for me and i'm diggin bodybuilding.

i'm deep into nutrition as well. i like it. you do what is good for you and i'll do what i need to do for me.

where's the ignore button?

Actually his reply is spot on. People fail to focus on the basics, which is crucial for building a solid foundation. Once you have a solid foundation, you fine tune from there. He's also right about LBM. You're at the lower end of the scale and you're at 16% bodyfat (according to your profile.) That's not ripped, not even close. Based on that info and your stats you don't carry a lot of overall LBM.

Not trying to give you a hard time, but it's the truth.

[induced_drag]

douchebag reply and not useful at all. you judge with a ton of off-base assumptions.
i have some health issues and i'm still making great gains. people tell me i'm ripped, buff, etc. lately. it's working for me and i'm diggin bodybuilding.

i'm deep into nutrition as well. i like it. you do what is good for you and i'll do what i need to do for me.

where's the ignore button?

My comment was not directed at you, or anyone in particular. Just a trend I tend to see often.

If you felt it applied to you, maybe you should examine why you feel this way. Maybe it hit a little too close to home. It was not an attack on you.

Regardless, I think that it is great anyone 54+ lifting weights.

[silverlightning]

IMO, the smith machine allows the best A to B path for behind the neck presses. there is almost zero error when doing them on the smith. if you have someone to spot you to relock the bar into place, the better. I haven't done them for a long time, but i got the best stimulation on the smith machine. i only go just to the lower base of the neck, or where your ROM allows safely.

[NorwichGrad]

Off topic rant:


I have to just say this..... All the time I see guys talking about how they need to 'bring up' a particular muscle (delts, upper or lower chest, tris, bis...etc). When really they should just be focusing on gaining overall size. I am sorry, but if you are not even close to peaking on what mass you can carry, STOP over thinking it! Just concentrate on getting bigger and stronger overall.

These same guys talking about isolating a particular area for concentration will be 20-30lbs lighter then many on here (for their given frame). Most of these same people focus ZERO effort on proper caloric surpluses. They stay the same weight week after week, month after month. (just a hint, if you are out of the newb stage, trying to gain mass, and you have not seen the scale move in two weeks.....you are doing it wrong...or terribly ineffectively).

Sorry, but a guy who is barely carrying any significant LBM talking about 'targeting' a particular muscle, needs to learn NOT to focus so much. You need to 'target' like a shotgun! Squats, deadlifts, bench, ohp, pullups, bent rows.....minor iso work....done.


Just seeing this over an over..... Maybe I over simplify things at times, but very few people are truly in need of isolation of a particular muscle. Overall development is the goal. When you start to get significant development, you can then make some adjustments...still most times it is not even necessary unless you are pursuing true 'bodybuilding'. (which almost ZERO people on here do)

Sorry for the rant. Go lift some heavy stuff...and stop over thinking!!!!

ID,

I agree 1000% with the content of your post. We humans have a tendency to overcomplicate things. However, I also understand as to why the OP may have been offended.

This is just a general statement from years of observation, and not specifically directed at you or anybody in particular.. I’m talking to the group here.

Sometimes it’s not only what we say, but also how we say it. There are a lot of infighting here because sometimes we blurt out what we have to say (absolutely nothing wrong with that), but without taking into consideration how the reader may interpret what we are saying (or writing). And once the seeds of misinterpretation and misunderstanding are planted, it’s game over, man. Butthurtness blossoms like a bad case of Chlamydia in a frat house, and next thing we know, we are fighting and arguing over the same things that we agree with.

Certainly not trying to lecture people on written communication, as English is only my third language – “my rooster is not big enough in the cockfight” as we say in the Islands. And certainly not trying to promote political correctness, as political correctness is the reason why America is so phucked up.

Just trying to encourage one another that it is perfectly okay to share ideas, but in order to continue to have civil and productive discussion on various topics, sometimes we gotta put ourselves in the shoes of those we disagree with.

A wise weightlifting coach once told me:

“If you scream, people will tune you out. If you whisper, they will lean forward and listen.”

[BankWalker]

I have strong shoulders (see profile pic). I have a pretty decent run with overhead squats and snatches and cleans. BHN's don't bother me, and as I stated before, I like the way they uniquely hit my anterior delts and back. I have videos of all these things.

One thing I don't have though, is a picture of my hand.

This is why I prefer them BHN as well. I like to do the first sets BHN, then finish with military presses.

Standing by for the video challenge in this thread

[ironwill2008]

douchebag reply and not useful at all. you judge with a ton of off-base assumptions.
i have some health issues and i'm still making great gains. people tell me i'm ripped, buff, etc. lately. it's working for me and i'm diggin bodybuilding.

i'm deep into nutrition as well. i like it. you do what is good for you and i'll do what i need to do for me.

where's the ignore button?

You should go back and re-read post #46 repeatedly until you get his point.








Good luck meeting your fitness goals for 2014.

[Desparado]

douchebag reply and not useful at all. you judge with a ton of off-base assumptions.
i have some health issues and i'm still making great gains. people tell me i'm ripped, buff, etc. lately. it's working for me and i'm diggin bodybuilding.

i'm deep into nutrition as well. i like it. you do what is good for you and i'll do what i need to do for me.

where's the ignore button?

Wow. I thought ID's reply was spot on. But I guess you've got it all figured out with people telling you you are "ripped and buff." Way to go champ!

[Brackneyc]

Wow. I thought ID's reply was spot on. But I guess you've got it all figured out with people telling you you are "ripped and buff." Way to go champ!

Hey man, ID is one of my guys, but the post, albeit accurate, was misplaced in a thread where that info was not asked for. That info would be seen by a lot more folks who need to see it had it been in a thread specifically addressing dietary concerns.

[x-trainer ben]

Hey man, ID is one of my guys, but the post, albeit accurate, was misplaced in a thread where that info was not asked for. That info would be seen by a lot more folks who need to see it had it been in a thread specifically addressing dietary concerns.

Well he did say "Off topic rant:"

So we kind of had a hint as to what was coming

[Brackneyc]

Well he did say "Off topic rant:"

So we kind of had a hint as to what was coming

Like saying "no offense," right before getting ready to offend someone.

[Desparado]

Hey man, ID is one of my guys, but the post, albeit accurate, was misplaced in a thread where that info was not asked for. That info would be seen by a lot more folks who need to see it had it been in a thread specifically addressing dietary concerns.

If the OP had responded respectively and intelligently as you have he wouldn't have come across as a lout. The point ID was making seemed to have hit a little too close to home. If the shoe fits...