Wide stance lowbar squats with more upward torso angle and hamstring involvement

[OscarLV]

Hey everyone
So lately I have been trying to switch up my squat technique to get rid of that ugly squat - good morning movement pattern.
I'm a raw lifter, but mine squat stance has always been pretty wide, cause that's where I feel the strongest (no problems hitting depth and keeping the knees out)

What I am trying to accomplish now is - trying to keep my hips under the bar as much as possible throughout the movement instead of letting them flare back out, like I was used to doing.

Thanks to my hip mobility I am able to keep the hips under the bar as much as possible and having only a very slight forward lean because of the low bar placement. (When looking from side, this makes it look like I have extremely short femurs, knees never go past my toes)

I think I have run into a problem though - I have noticed that, when squatting like this, my hamstrings are not stretched at all when I'm in the hole. The limiting factor (tightness) for depth is only in the hip region. When I used to kick my butt back out, I always felt a good stretch both in hips and hammies.

Is this an indication that I'm doing something wrong and can this be the reason why I'm weaker squatting more upright that leaning forward so far. I can hit around 500 squat-good morning hybrid but only 400 more upright stance squat and if I up the poundage for that, my hips just automatically shoot back out without me being able to stop them.


Cliffs on my situation:
1) Used to do a squat-good morning hybrid (a.k.a. Norton squat) and felt both hip muscles and hammies working pretty good on those.
2) Trying to learn more upright torso squat and keeping the hips under the bar as much as possible, but can't feel hammies stretched/working during those.

Any kind of input would be very much appreciated
Thank You.

[OscarLV]

My new technique looks very similar to Marks in this video:

[Jason2459]

My new technique looks very similar to Marks in this video:

[video of some other guy]

Sorry, didn't read a thing you posted. Just wanted to say, it's best to post a video of yourself as most likely you don't look anything like the guy squatting in that video.

[OscarLV]

I start the movement by squeezing the butt, opening my hips, bracing the core and going down in the hole. Both my upper and lower back is neutral at the beginning, but getting closer to the hole both my upper and lower back naturally starts arching, cause it feels like I'm stronger in that position at the moment. Because of flexibility and and back development, when looking from side, there is no visible arching happening (visually back stays neutral the whole time) but I can definitely feel some arching going on in the lower and upper back.

When the weight gets heavier and the arching starts to happen, I start to loose the core brace. My stomach kind of like sucks in and my rib cage flares out. Feels like my back wants to take all the work away from frontal core muscles.

Should i concentrate on purely bracing/never arching and strengthening my core, even if that means moving less weight at the start?
The reason why I don't like arching anymore, is because it sometimes aggravates some lower back/si joint issues that I have been dealing with.

Thank You.

[OscarLV]

If You don't feel like reading what I wrote, please at least tell if You arch or brace. I'm interested in what the majority of people here prefer.

[Anthony21]

Why not both? Why not brace but also be aware of lower back tightness/rounding? Typically when I brace through out my squat this leads to me having a natural arch in my lower back and helps prevent any pelvic tilt at the bottom.

[OscarLV]

Can't find any examples on YouTube.
Green, Efferding, Lilliebridges, Sumner, all the SuperTraining guys, most of the IPF guys, everyone... decently strong seems to be arching at least a bit. No one relies purely on bracing the abdominals.

So where does all this bracing / keeping the back neutral talk come from?

[UncleWade]

I think this gives a fair explanation of the issue you're kind of working around:



A slight arch and a tight lower back are an important part of the core bracing that's being talked about - the abs and obliques are not the only part of the trunk/core that are absolutely critical for the squat.

Obviously, a lot (such as the degree your arch) will be form and body type dependent, the same as most lifts.

[TrettinR]

The spine has a natural arch in it. Bracing/keeping the back neutral is maintaining that natural arch.

[CROMAGS1985]

Squeezing/contracting glutes flattens the back/stabilizes "core" and keeps the load over center. I think people who excessively arch are compensating for mobility issues. don't get me started on pelvic tilt.

[OscarLV]

Why not both? Why not brace but also be aware of lower back tightness/rounding? Typically when I brace through out my squat this leads to me having a natural arch in my lower back and helps prevent any pelvic tilt at the bottom.

Wait, what am I missing here?
I thought, that in order to properly brace the core one needs to have a slight posterior pelvic tilt and keep the rib cage down, just like Bryce Lewis advocated at the beginning of this video.

I find it completely anatomically impossible to have any kind of arch in my back without lengthening the abs, flaring the rib cage up and having a slight posterior pelvic tilt, which is caused by squeezing the glutes. About which part am I wrong?

[dtaps24]

So where does all this bracing / keeping the back neutral talk come from?

I'd say primarily from people who overcomplicate things to the point of confusing themselves. Like you.

[sheed30]

Check out Kevin Oak...his spine "looks" pretty "neutral" when squatting

[kaleida]

I have a pretty huge lumbar curve at rest and it helps me to brace my abs and cue posterior pelvic tilt...that makes my back look straight or slightly arched instead of extreme arched...I am pretty sure if I arched my back on purpose that would be a disaster of instability. Considering a small child could crawl under my bench press arch I don't even want to know what arching on purpose would do to my squat.

Elite FTS has an interesting video about this topic:
http://articles.elitefts.com/trainin...quat-is-wrong/

[tonenotbulk]

Why not both? Why not brace but also be aware of lower back tightness/rounding?

I agree. In my set up I brace and arch. I don't feel like I can get very tight unless I do both. This leads to a neutral/straight back when viewed from the side.

[Anthony21]

Wait, what am I missing here?
I thought, that in order to properly brace the core one needs to have a slight posterior pelvic tilt and keep the rib cage down, just like Bryce Lewis advocated at the beginning of this video.

I find it completely anatomically impossible to have any kind of arch in my back without lengthening the abs, flaring the rib cage up and having a slight posterior pelvic tilt, which is caused by squeezing the glutes. About which part am I wrong?

Can't see the video at work so i'll have to check it out later.

I think you're maybe over thinking it a bit too much.

For me I just squeeze my glutes tight, take air into my lower back, brace harder, squat while still bracing & complete the rep. Simple enough and works for me.

I say do what works for you and where you feel the strongest at.

[OscarLV]

I have a pretty huge lumbar curve at rest and it helps me to brace my abs and cue posterior pelvic tilt...that makes my back look straight or slightly arched instead of extreme arched...I am pretty sure if I arched my back on purpose that would be a disaster of instability. Considering a small child could crawl under my bench press arch I don't even want to know what arching on purpose would do to my squat.

Elite FTS has an interesting video about this topic:
http://articles.elitefts.com/trainin...quat-is-wrong/

I do the same thing with consciously creating a slight posterior pelvic tilt.
I would be completely happy squatting like that and not arching at all, but what made me worried in the first place, was that, since I'm learning to squat more upright, that helped me to keep the hips under the bar much better, but the non-existant arch in the back caused a non-existant stretch in my hammies (which is a problem, right?) even well below the parallel and and still having my knees out. (I wrote about this problem in my previous topic - http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=163763441)

I found that, when being in the hole, if I shoot my hips back a little and create a little, from outside invisible arch in my back, the hammies instantly get stretched.
So that made sit here and think - is it even possible to squat properly without having at lest a very slight feeling of arching in the lover back.

I really appreciate everyone posting here and helping me. Thank You.

[OscarLV]

I just realized that I do everything just the way that Chris Duffin teaches in this video.
Must be correct then, huh? I guess not... I'm so frustrated right now

What the holy fuark is wrong with me and mine dumb fuarking hamstrings? Why are there no stretch in them (stretch and tension is only in the hip muscles) when I'm in the position, that is visible in the video @ 6:10 ?
Is there even such a thing as "too much mobility" in my hammies, which is now hurting me and potentially compromising my knee health?

Please, please help me people, I'm kind of losing it no, I am not overthinking stuff, just trying to become a better, more efficient squatter.

[brudman]

Based on some of these threads you are making it does seem like you are losing your mind . At a certain point, being analytical can have diminishing marginal returns.

Btw, it's impossible to help you without a video of you squatting. No one is going to say "Oh, you do it exactly the way Chris Duffin teaches? That's wrong." I sincerely doubt your squat mirrors either one of the videos you posted.

Not trying to pick on you - just post a video of yourself squatting something heavy and the folks in this section can help.

[isaku900]

Please, please help me people, I'm kind of losing it no, I am not overthinking stuff, just trying to become a better, more efficient squatter.

you are absolutely overthinking stuff. every single thread you've posted is unncessary.

just squat. post a video to show us how you actually squat. adjust minor things if necessary.

[Jason2459]

I just realized that I do everything just the way that Chris Duffin teaches in this video.
Must be correct then, huh? I guess not... I'm so frustrated right now

What the holy fuark is wrong with me and mine dumb fuarking hamstrings? Why are there no stretch in them (stretch and tension is only in the hip muscles) when I'm in the position, that is visible in the video @ 6:10 ?
Is there even such a thing as "too much mobility" in my hammies, which is now hurting me and potentially compromising my knee health?

Please, please help me people, I'm kind of losing it no, I am not overthinking stuff, just trying to become a better, more efficient squatter.

Sorry, didn't read a thing you posted. Just wanted to say, it's best to post a video of yourself as most likely you don't look anything like the guy squatting in that video.

[doingwork30]

anatomically normal lordotic arch = neutral spine (no hyperextension, no flexion)

arching is a cue to maintain an anatomically normal lordotic arch. bracing is also a cue to maintain an anatomically normal lordotic arch.

shockingly enough to some in the strength guru world, people react to cues differently, and sometimes need to hear different things to create the normal lordotic ARCH (aka a neutral spine aka normal anatomical position)

This is no different than people b!tching about "knees out" as a cue because the end goal is not to have varus knees. No **** you don't want varus knees, but someone with valgus knee problems needs to hear knees out to get to normal anatomical position.

[Einzelhaft]

Pretty much this ^^.
They all want to achieve the same thing (neutral back and stability) and use different cues.

[wallydubois]

Kirk Karwoski, Ed Coan and Chuck Vogelpuhl among many others.

[IngeKJ]

Hamstrings arent very involved in the squat no matter how westside your squat is.. Sounds like youre overthinking stuff. Wanna stay upright? High bar, knees over toes. Not worse than that. Compete the way you lift the most weight while hitting depth

[MF83]

I can't link yet but youtube ?v=8JkqaUDn1h4 for Jeremy Hamilton on this issue.

[GetHimABodyBag]

You should care more about quads

[Jason2459]

You should care more about quads

Why?

[xRequiem]

quit worrying about squatting like other people. do what's conformable which usually ends up being the most mechanically efficient

[wallydubois]

Hamstrings arent very involved in the squat no matter how westside your squat is..

Hamstrings are very involved in squatting no matter how you squat. Quads aren't hip flexors.