Using "equipped" lifting to help with raw total

[SmallLats]

I understand that equipped lifting is different(movement wise) from raw lifting. But I can't stop and wonder why people like sergey fedosienko and brett gibbs are well above many other lifters. Gibbs won worlds by quite a fair margin. The second and third placed competitors, to my knowledge, have never trained equipped before.

Do you believe(from experience or theory) that equipped lifters have an advantage when it comes to raw competition and/or it is a viable option to gain raw strength?

[Dawes]

Also whilst we are on the subject of this, what are people's opinions of using knee wraps as an overload method? Ive never tried it to boost my raw squat, I just happen to have a pair of wraps I've never used which were a gift and they have been collecting dust for the past 2 years.

[308smk]

Yes to both. Singleply is a bit different than raw, but what it really does is get you moving heavy weights. When you handle hundreds of pounds over your raw Max, your raw Max doesn't feel as heavy anymore.

A pair of kneewraps and a slingshot will do loads for your raw lifts to start with. Real gear will do even more.

[SmallLats]

Yes to both. Singleply is a bit different than raw, but what it really does is get you moving heavy weights. When you handle hundreds of pounds over your raw Max, your raw Max doesn't feel as heavy anymore.

A pair of kneewraps and a slingshot will do loads for your raw lifts to start with. Real gear will do even more.

Definitely been thinking about picking up a slingshot, would be nice to try single ply some day.

[cirion0000]

Definitely been thinking about picking up a slingshot, would be nice to try single ply some day.

I got my first slingshot and tried it out earlier this week.

255 raw max
225x5 with it (converts into ~265 max)

Might have gotten 6 reps, didn't wanna push it. I also got the "light" one not the original, sort of wish I got the original (stiffer) one as a couple of guys I am following seem to get WAY more from it than what I am getting from mine (one guy from a 295 raw max to a 315 triple I think it was he pulled off w/ the original slingshot)

It's definitely good stuff. I still would train raw though, I don't think you can/should ever take raw out of training.

[CooCooCaChoo]

I got my first slingshot and tried it out earlier this week.

255 raw max
225x5 with it (converts into ~265 max)

Might have gotten 6 reps, didn't wanna push it. I also got the "light" one not the original, sort of wish I got the original (stiffer) one as a couple of guys I am following seem to get WAY more from it than what I am getting from mine (one guy from a 295 raw max to a 315 triple I think it was he pulled off w/ the original slingshot)

It's definitely good stuff. I still would train raw though, I don't think you can/should ever take raw out of training.

Was shopping around for a slingshot today. I'm trying to really focus on hitting a 300+ bench by December and I figure some overload work would help greatly. Only drawback though is I would probably need a spotter I trust and training alone in a commercial gym makes that a bit sketchy.

Sorry to contribute to thread derail.

[BLK00TJ]

I have a reactive SS and have used it a few times mostly to continue the workout for added volume at a higher weight. My max is 240 and the reactive SS enabled me to do 260. I'm not sure it helped other than confidence though. You know those times when you unrack a weight and you just think, "oh crap this is heavy". Kind of like walking out with 120% of your squat. Do that enough times and 100% feels light. It makes the press off the chest pretty easy which is where I need work. Push hard enough to get bar speed up, and it goes right up. Maybe if I had lockout problems I'd see more benefit.

[arian11]

Was almost expecting this video to be posted,

[davisj3537]

How much a slingshot helps is ENTIRELY dependent on your individual weaknesses during bench. Some guys get 10lbs, some guys will get over 50 like myself. Wearing one occasionally can be very useful for the raw lifter, but every push session is a mistake IMO. Your main training methods should be revolving around how you compete.

Going single ply if you are going to compete raw just kind of sounds dumb. It takes a LOT of time to learn the gear, it is expensive compared to other training methods and it will change your form significantly. The only benefits are holding more weight and an increased lockout. You aren't getting better at coming out of the hole or off the chest which is where almost everyone struggles.

[lostsk8]

I don't think holding more weight and lock out are the only benefits. I would also disagree that most people are weak off the chest. I always had weak triceps and it wasn't until I trained equipped bench that I realised and my raw bench went up 45 pounds. It teaches you the importance of technique and tightness and how to maintain it though out the entirety of the lift. It also teaches you how to get the weight down fast. Sheiko suggests it for raw lifters also.

[kennycroxdale]

I don't think holding more weight and lock out are the only benefits. I would also disagree that most people are weak off the chest. I always had weak triceps and it wasn't until I trained equipped bench that I realised and my raw bench went up 45 pounds. It teaches you the importance of technique and tightness and how to maintain it though out the entirety of the lift. It also teaches you how to get the weight down fast. Sheiko suggests it for raw lifters also.

Weak Off The Chest

The first 1/3 of the Bench Press is the weakest part for the majority.

You are in the weakest biomechanical position when the bar is on your chest.

The same applies to the Squat and Deadlift.

All three have an...

Ascending Strength Curve

The further up you move the weight, the easier it becomes.

That is why adding Bands or Chains to the bar for these lifts works. It provides more of an overload throughout the range of motion.

Partial Range Movements

The majority of lifter are able to push more weight in a partial range bench press and squat because of the biomechanical advantage.

Bench Shirts/Squat Suits

Both provide assistance in the bottom part of the lift, as does the Sling Shot.

The Sling Shot is another form of Variable Resistance Training.

Do NOT "Get the Weight Down Fast"

Lowering the bar too fast in a Bench Press or Squat is counter productive.

Research (Dr. Tom McLaughlin/PhD Exercise Biomecanics) demonstrated that "Speed Kills".

Jumping Off A 5 Story Building

"Jumping off a 5 story building won't kill you. Its the sudden STOP that you need to worry about."

It one of the laws of...

Physics

Force = Mass X Acceleration.

Fast Drop

McLaughlin found that novice/intermediate lifter who allowed the bar to drop too fast increased the amount of force needed to drive the weight off the chest in a Bench Press.

Allowing the bar to descend too quickly magnified the reversal force need to drive the weight up by 149%.

Thus, a quick descent with 300 lbs meant a lifter would need to exert 447 lbs of force to drive the weight back up. (300 lbs X 149% = 447 lbs)

Slow Drop

Elite lifter who lowered the bar slowly only increased the force needed to drive the weight up 112%.

Thus, slow descent required 336 lbs of reversal force. (300 lbs X 112% = 336 lbs)

Incorrect Assumptions

In presenting the reasons for a slow controlled descent at clinics, one a repetitive responses that I get is...

"Lowering the weight fast saves strength for the concentric drive up."

Your eccentric strength is approximately 20% greater than your concentric strength.

If your best "Concentric Bench Press" is 300 lbs, your "Eccentric Bench Press" is around 360 lbs (300 lbs X 120%)

Thus, in lowering 300 lbs that means you are performing it with 80% of you Eccentric Strength.

There is not much strength lost in performing a 240 lb "Concentric Bench Press" (80%) of you 300 lb max nor a 300 lb which is 80% of your "Eccentric Bench Press".

Research has demonstrated the very little energy expenditure occurs with eccentric movements or isometric actions.

The Stretch Reflex

There is a point where you need to let the bar accelerate when lowering it.

In the Bench Press, increasing the descent speed about 2 inches off the chest provide the right amount of force to evoke the stretch reflex.

This provides a "Build In" Sling Shot effect.

Competition Bench

In lowering the weight at a meet, some of the Stretch Reflex can be utilized.

The key is NOT to let the bar sit in a paused position too long on the chest.

Research has demonstrated that up to 50% of the Stretch Reflex is lost in 1 second.

Anticipation of The Bench Signal

In the first two attempts, waiting for the referee's signal insures that you don't get red lighted for "Jumping the gun".

In an all out third attempt, anticipating the "Bench Signal" is a learned art that need to be practiced in the gym.

All great Benchers anticipate the signal.

When it comes to producing more force via the Stretch Refles, milliseconds count.

Kenny Croxdale

[davisj3537]

I don't think holding more weight and lock out are the only benefits. I would also disagree that most people are weak off the chest. I always had weak triceps and it wasn't until I trained equipped bench that I realised and my raw bench went up 45 pounds. It teaches you the importance of technique and tightness and how to maintain it though out the entirety of the lift. It also teaches you how to get the weight down fast. Sheiko suggests it for raw lifters also.

Since I started shirted training two years ago my raw bench hasn't moved 10lbs, while my shirted bench went up over 150lbs. They aren't necessarily related....after all that is what this thread is about. Just because someone starts using shirts it doesn't mean anything for their raw numbers.

[TrettinR]

Do you believe(from experience or theory) that equipped lifters have an advantage when it comes to raw competition and/or it is a viable option to gain raw strength?

No. The people who are strongest in single ply and raw are the strongest because they are the strongest (Tautologies are fun). There might be SOME advantages that carryover to raw lifting, but not nearly as many as just lifting raw.

[Einzelhaft]

I wouldn't bother using equipment to get stronger raw. but training aids like bands, slingshot and so on that have a similar effect like equipment can be helpul indeed.

[naturalguy]

Since the technique with gear is very different from raw I wouldn't think it would help but I've never used gear so I can't definitively say

[Drew23]

I would say my raw bench has benefitted substantially from wearing a bench shirt.

I would also say the opposite is true for my squat. Whenever I am in gear for a long period of time, my raw squat goes down.

[WorldDomnit]

Since the technique with gear is very different from raw I wouldn't think it would help but I've never used gear so I can't definitively say

This.

My raw bench goes down signifigantly after I train in a shirt for a while. Sure, lockouts feel easier, but thats because you lose 10-20% of your raw max.
Squat, technique is so different but I usually only lose like 5-10% of my raw max

Deadlift... different for everyone. I get like 100lbs+ out of gear so i'm not one to talk, but most people can transition back to raw deads no problem.


Never have I heard of anyones raw numbers going up from using gear as assistance. maybe a sling shot or knee wraps, but a bench shirt or squat suit will not help your raw numbers

[308smk]

This.

My raw bench goes down signifigantly after I train in a shirt for a while. Sure, lockouts feel easier, but thats because you lose 10-20% of your raw max.
Squat, technique is so different but I usually only lose like 5-10% of my raw max

Deadlift... different for everyone. I get like 100lbs+ out of gear so i'm not one to talk, but most people can transition back to raw deads no problem.


Never have I heard of anyones raw numbers going up from using gear as assistance. maybe a sling shot or knee wraps, but a bench shirt or squat suit will not help your raw numbers

Did you maintain your raw training volume and add in the gear as competition training, or simply transition to gear with minimal raw work?

[Jcamaho]

It all depends on the person. I can speak for single ply or multi ply carryover but I do use wraps to overload. This works fairly well for ME. Mind you this may not work well for the next person. I would say give it a shot. You will only learn how it works if you give it a try.

[WorldDomnit]

Did you maintain your raw training volume and add in the gear as competition training, or simply transition to gear with minimal raw work?

I dropped raw lifting as a whole. If i was doing a ME lift, i was wearing briefs a suit and knee wraps. On my DE days I lifted in briefs only/ raw on bench

[SPFjudge]

Do NOT "Get the Weight Down Fast"

Lowering the bar too fast in a Bench Press or Squat is counter productive.

Research (Dr. Tom McLaughlin/PhD Exercise Biomecanics) demonstrated that "Speed Kills".

I utterly and completely disagree with this chit. What lifters did he use for the study? Probably broke freshman kids with minimal strength and very limited experience. I'd love to see this study done with someone like Shane Hammon.

[cirion0000]

Well, it is simple physics that dictates that more force over a shorter duration is going to be required to slow/stop it near the chest OR less force over a longer duration. I think its mostly down to personal preference, I myself prefer slower lowering of the bar now especially on squat because I am not 100% confident of my form, and the though of 300 lbs+ on my back for a squat, for instance, slamming to a stop, doesn't sound very inviting to my already semi-injured back lol. I'll stick to controlled lowering, not because of science or anything, but because I like to be in control at all times.

[mitten]

i think ive heard that using a slingshot can help with finding proper bar path on bench. Thats easy to incorporate in raw training.

[SPFjudge]

I'll stick to controlled lowering, not because of science or anything, but because I like to be in control at all times.

Going fast =/= not under control

[davisj3537]

Kind of unrelated, but I always preferred a slow descent so that I could "feel" the groove. The groove on a tight as fuark super katana is too small FOR ME to be dive bombing descents. That is only something a very experienced geared lifter could do efficiently IMO.

[Jason2459]

Summary
I usually agree with most things Trettin and SPFJudge post. So, that ^^^ whatever they said.

Jason 2459

[zmcdole]

I do not think equipped lifting will help your raw lifts much at all. Increasing your raw lifts will ALMOST ALWAYS increase your geared lifts because strong is strong and getting stronger means you're stronger and stuff you know?? Lol I love it when people say strong is strong. Like someone else said a very good equipped lifter is probably also a very strong raw lifter. My biggest issue with this theory is that gear is giving you the most assistance in the places you need the most strength as a raw lifter. Those places being the hole in the squat and off your chest when benching. I know that's already been mentioned.

If you want to increase your lifts as a raw lifter you need to get good at the lifts. If you wanna use some sort of device to increase your raw lifts by overloading then a slingshot device or reverse bands will be your best bets.

[zmcdole]

No. The people who are strongest in single ply and raw are the strongest because they are the strongest (Tautologies are fun). There might be SOME advantages that carryover to raw lifting, but not nearly as many as just lifting raw.