Layne Norton and Jake Wilson on meal timing

[CaptainProtein]

This isn't new and may have been posted before but I thought I'd mention it to get an idea what you guys thought about it.

http://www.rxmuscle.com/2013-01-11-0...e-college.html
episode 2 is the broadcast in question.
If you skip to 23:30 you will hear Layne's opinion that meal(or rather just protein) timing IS relevant to muscle building and better protein synthesis even though it seems to be commonly accepted otherwise.

I highly recommend listening to the entire thing if you have time because there was also some fascinating stuff on muscle memory, IF, and leucine along with it's effectiveness in protein synthesis(especially for vegetarians) as well

[ThunderBee]

when's he say is the best time?

[CaptainProtein]

when's he say is the best time?

I believe he said getting a meal with adequate protein every 3-4 hours

[ThunderBee]

Just listened, he said "Even if you ate the same amount of protein per day, if you aren't distributing it properly over multiple meals to get multiple protein synthesis responses, you're not going to have optimal outcomes of muscle mass."

he also said if you're eating over 40 grams of protein in one meal to compensate for lower protein earlier in the day, you aren't going to synthesize it as well or even at all.

[Bob808]

I'm new here and will probably get flamed, but I did my undergrad degree in nutrition at the same school he got his PhD, and I've read/followed Layne a bit over the last several years, and isn't he up past like 700 lbs on the deadlift and keeps claiming to be all natural? Leucine and meal timing eh?

[ZMan45]

Layne's views on leucine/protein dosing are pretty well documented in this forum. In terms of maximizing all avenues of anabolism, there's undoubtedly merit to it. At the same time, he is sponsored by a company that sells BCAA product.

[CaptainProtein]

I'm new here and will probably get flamed, but I did my undergrad degree in nutrition at the same school he got his PhD, and I've read/followed Layne a bit over the last several years, and isn't he up past like 700 lbs on the deadlift and keeps claiming to be all natural? Leucine and meal timing eh?

I won't make claims that I know the facts about his nattyness, although he did post evidence of his results from a random offseason drug screening so I like to believe he's innocent until proven guilty

[Mrpb]

Very interesting topic. Thanks for the share. I will listen to it later.

http://www.rxmuscle.com/2013-01-11-0...e-college.html

If you skip to 23:30 you will hear Layne's opinion that meal(or rather just protein) timing IS relevant to muscle building and better protein synthesis even though it seems to be commonly accepted otherwise.

I highly recommend listening to the entire thing if you have time because there was also some fascinating stuff on muscle memory, IF, and leucine along with it's effectiveness in protein synthesis(especially for vegetarians) as well

That seems to match some of the ideas of Dr. Stuart Phillips here: http://www.leanbodiesconsulting.com/...uart-phillips/

[determined4000]

He recommends a protein dose every 4-5 hours
Most of the stuff I have seen has 4 meals a day as a sweet spot
Routinely out performs 2 and 6 meals a day
And this is for controlling total protein intake over 24 hours

[Mrpb]

One thing I don't understand is that claim of more than 40 gram will not be optimal. If we eat protein with fat, carbs, fibre it will take many more hours than 4 to be fully digested right? So how can it make a difference?

By the way, the fans of intermittent fasting should definitely listen to it.

[determined4000]

One thing I don't understand is that claim of more than 40 gram will not be optimal. If we eat protein with fat, carbs, fibre it will take many more hours than 4 to be fully digested right? So how can it make a difference?

By the way, the fans of intermittent fasting should definitely listen to it.

i dont buy into the 20 or 40 gram per meal or any othe figure
Y?
Why would it make sense that a 5'6" 140lb guy would use or need the same as a 6'5" 240lb guy

[Mrpb]

i dont buy into the 20 or 40 gram per meal or any othe figure
Y?
Why would it make sense that a 5'6" 140lb guy would use or need the same as a 6'5" 240lb guy

Well that's a good point but I can also understand that they don't want to give ranges all the time for simplicity's sake. I'm assuming it's a rough average number for the average guy, probably somewhere around 180 pounds.

Which would make sense, ~4 servings of ~40 grams.

Stuart Phillips does brake it down:

From an optimal standpoint, however, there are benefits of ingesting protein intakes as high as 1.6-1.8 g/kg/d [0.73-0.81 g/lb/d], which we further breakdown to ~4 meals of 0.4-0.45 g/kg/meal, in a day.

http://www.leanbodiesconsulting.com/...uart-phillips/

[determined4000]

Well that's a good point but I can also understand that they don't want to give ranges all the time for simplicity's sake. I'm assuming it's a rough average number for the average guy, probably somewhere around 180 pounds.

Which would make sense, ~4 servings of ~40 grams.

Stuart Phillips does brake it down:

http://www.leanbodiesconsulting.com/...uart-phillips/

yes that makes more sense
my general rules of thumb are

1. at least 1g/lb a day
2. 4 ingestion times a day (range 3-5)
3. at least .25g/lb for WO
and lesser important
4. Focus on complete sources

[mrzeusone]

I know this thread is about the Podcast by Layne Norton and Jake Wilson. I thought it was relevant to add this so the average joe is not sent into hysteria trying to eat 4 meals a day at 4.-5g/kg/meal. Even though I believe this is somewhat a normal characteristic of the majority of eating regiments regardless of effort. Also so they see who nutrient timing is actually is directed towards.



And bear in mind, this will always be far more important than timing.

Alan Aragon -
The Primary Laws of Nutrient Timing

The First Law of Nutrient Timing is: hitting your daily macronutrient targets is FAR more important than nutrient timing.
The Second Law of Nutrient Timing is: hitting your daily macronutrient targets is FAR more important than nutrient timing.

[Mrpb]

^ I agree with what you said and wanted to add that both the image and the 'law" are from Alan. I think it's fair to say that Alan is in the more liberal camp on the nutrient timing debate. He doesn't see it making a significant difference in most cases. Norton looks at the same science and comes to a slightly different conclusion.

[AAOBob]

I've gotten into this argument before, but taken to an extreme, of course meal timing matters, otherwise you could eat your weekly calories and two days, fast for the next 5 and expect the same results.

That being said it matters far less than the bro-science of the 80's and 90's.

I think the idea of "timing doesn't matter at all" was propagated in response to the types that acted as if you were sipping raw eggs in your workout you would lose your gains.

Somewhere there is a happy, optimal, medium, perhaps the idea in the OP video is it, perhaps it will be somewhere else.

[MichielN]

One thing I don't understand is that claim of more than 40 gram will not be optimal. If we eat protein with fat, carbs, fibre it will take many more hours than 4 to be fully digested right? So how can it make a difference?

By the way, the fans of intermittent fasting should definitely listen to it.

Rate of digestion has nothing to do with activation/duration of protein synthesis.

Optimal protein synthesis requires a certain treshold of hyperaminoacidemia (elevated levels of amino acids in your blood), and a certain dose of leucine. When you eat something, nutrients are released into the blood stream fairly quickly. The duration of hyperaminoacidemia depends on things like protein source (e.g. whey vs cassein) and dose.

Now, when you eat an amount of protein above a certain level, protein oxidation will increase. All protein will be absorbed, but not all protein can be used for protein synthesis. Also bear in mind the fact that once amino acids in the blood are spiked, these levels will gradually lower in time, depending on the dose this will generally happen after 3-4 hours (even with cassein). Levels below the required treshold of hyperaminoacidemia will not sufficiently activate protein synthesis.

Basically, keeping up a state of hyperaminoacidemia will optimise gains. Hence, you will need a certain spread of your protein intake across the day, e.g. eating every 3-4.5 hours.

With adequate protein intake, and a rational diet consisting of several meals per day, you will likely remain in a state of hyperaminoacidemia sufficiently to optimise muscle building. Hence the difference between say 4 or 6 meals spread across the day won't really matter.

Nutrient timing isn't irrelevant to body composition, as I commonly see people claiming these days, it's just not really something to break your head over when you rationally consume several meals spread across the day.

(and yes this is all well documented)

(and people probably shouldn't do IF for bulking due to the above, as well as lower phosphorylation rates of mTOR which could reduce protein synthesis)

[naturalguy]

Meal timing does matter, while hitting your daily macros is important competitive athletes are always looking for whats optimal and this is where meal timing comes into play. What you eat and when you eat can greatly affect your performance in the gym which does affect body composition.

[Mrpb]

Basically, keeping up a state of hyperaminoacidemia will optimise gains. Hence, you will need a certain spread of your protein intake across the day, e.g. eating every 3-4.5 hours.

Interesting Michiel.

What do you think of Alan's article?
http://www.wannabebig.com/diet-and-n...a-single-meal/

[MichielN]

Interesting Michiel.

What do you think of Alan's article?
http://www.wannabebig.com/diet-and-n...a-single-meal/

Only skimmed through that article, but like I said, all the protein you eat will be absorbed and utilised or oxidized for energy (thus eating it all at once won't make you deficient), but that does not mean it is all used for protein synthesis. For example, there is data showing that above a certain treshold, protein/leucine is oxidized. Obviously that cannot be used for protein synthesis.

Either way:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19628107

From the full text: "However, in TDR, the whole daily protein intake was spread more evenly over time due to the ingestion of the second portion of the supplement late in the evening approximately 2.5 hours after dinner. This could prolong the duration of moderate amino acidemia each day and lead to an increase in protein deposition and fat-free body mass over several weeks."


I think there is plenty of data to support spreading protein across the day. We might not be pros but that does not mean we cannot seek to optimise gains, so in my view we should best play it safe whenever possible and try to spread our protein across the day whenever possible (i.e. it shouldn't dictate your life, obviously).


4-6 meals won't really be life changing to most people I think, e.g. breakfast, lunch, dinner, pre-bed, + perhaps a snack or shake somewhere in between.

[ironwill2008]

Rate of digestion has nothing to do with activation/duration of protein synthesis.

Optimal protein synthesis requires a certain treshold of hyperaminoacidemia (elevated levels of amino acids in your blood), and a certain dose of leucine. When you eat something, nutrients are released into the blood stream fairly quickly. The duration of hyperaminoacidemia depends on things like protein source (e.g. whey vs cassein) and dose.

Now, when you eat an amount of protein above a certain level, protein oxidation will increase. All protein will be absorbed, but not all protein can be used for protein synthesis. Also bear in mind the fact that once amino acids in the blood are spiked, these levels will gradually lower in time, depending on the dose this will generally happen after 3-4 hours (even with cassein). Levels below the required treshold of hyperaminoacidemia will not sufficiently activate protein synthesis.

Basically, keeping up a state of hyperaminoacidemia will optimise gains. Hence, you will need a certain spread of your protein intake across the day, e.g. eating every 3-4.5 hours.

With adequate protein intake, and a rational diet consisting of several meals per day, you will likely remain in a state of hyperaminoacidemia sufficiently to optimise muscle building. Hence the difference between say 4 or 6 meals spread across the day won't really matter.

Nutrient timing isn't irrelevant to body composition, as I commonly see people claiming these days, it's just not really something to break your head over when you rationally consume several meals spread across the day.

(and yes this is all well documented)

(and people probably shouldn't do IF for bulking due to the above, as well as lower phosphorylation rates of mTOR which could reduce protein synthesis)

This post should be stickied.


Quoted so it doesn't get missed.

[chessboxxn]

Pursuit of optimal conditions can certainly lead to 'analysis paralysis.'

[alan aragon]

I've got a meta-analysis on meal frequency's effect of body composition in peer review right now, should be fun once it gets published

PS - I did a more recent discussion of meal frequency within this paper (my article Mrpb linked is showing some age): http://www.jissn.com/content/11/1/20

[alan aragon]

I know this thread is about the Podcast by Layne Norton and Jake Wilson. I thought it was relevant to add this so the average joe is not sent into hysteria trying to eat 4 meals a day at 4.-5g/kg/meal. Even though I believe this is somewhat a normal characteristic of the majority of eating regiments regardless of effort. Also so they see who nutrient timing is actually is directed towards.



And bear in mind, this will always be far more important than timing.

Alan Aragon -
The Primary Laws of Nutrient Timing

The First Law of Nutrient Timing is: hitting your daily macronutrient targets is FAR more important than nutrient timing.
The Second Law of Nutrient Timing is: hitting your daily macronutrient targets is FAR more important than nutrient timing.

There's an updated nutrient timing continuum in this paper, see figure 1: http://www.jissn.com/content/11/1/20

[CaptainProtein]

One thing I don't understand is that claim of more than 40 gram will not be optimal. If we eat protein with fat, carbs, fibre it will take many more hours than 4 to be fully digested right? So how can it make a difference?

By the way, the fans of intermittent fasting should definitely listen to it.

Maybe I'm wrong but when I listened to it I interpreted it as 40 grams would be equally effective at stimulating a response, not worse

[Mrpb]

I've got a meta-analysis on meal frequency's effect of body composition in peer review right now, should be fun once it gets published

Looking forward to it.

Can you comment on the discussion in this thread: Layne Norton and Stuart Phillips are suggesting that 40 gram of protein per meal gives the optimal response and more wouldn't really be useful.

Going by your 2010 article I thought the limit was much higher: http://www.wannabebig.com/diet-and-n...a-single-meal/

Is that article still valid or has your opinion changed?

Maybe I'm wrong but when I listened to it I interpreted it as 40 grams would be equally effective at stimulating a response, not worse

The part I was referring to is around minute 23:00.

Eating 80 grams isn't going to give you more protein synthesis than 40 grams.

[CaptainProtein]

The part I was referring to is around minute 23:00.

Eating 80 grams isn't going to give you more protein synthesis than 40 grams.

Yeah so basically it's equal protein synthesis from 40g vs 80g, so the bigger person requiring more protein will still meet his daily intake, just at the same protein synthesis rate of the person who only needed 40

[Mrpb]

Yeah so basically it's equal protein synthesis from 40g vs 80g, so the bigger person requiring more protein will still meet his daily intake, just at the same protein synthesis rate of the person who only needed 40

I think you may be referring to something else than I am.

Here's what I'm interested in: let's assume a 180 pound trainee that 'needs' 160 gram protein per day to perform optimal. Going by Norton and Phillips 4 meals of 40 grams would be optimal.

Going by Alan's article though one would not have to distribute protein like that. 2 meals of 30 and 1 meal of 100 would give equal results.

I wonder how strong the data is that supports Norton & Phillips case. I will have to spend more time researching this.

[BULLandTERRIER]

I will have to spend more time researching this.

Spend more time in the gym ... You are going full OCD on all this optimal protein amount/timing.

Read this: Is there a maximal anabolic response to protein intake with a meal?

http://www.clinicalnutritionjournal....266-X/fulltext

[Mrpb]

Spend more time in the gym

Probably not a good idea Already spending too much time in there.

... You are going full OCD on all this optimal protein amount/timing.

True. I want to get to the bottom of this. I'm not sure that's possible though. Thanks for the link. Will read it.