What's the point of pyramiding up in a set?

[CompletePimp]

I've been lifting for about 6 years in a pyramid-down fashion and have gained plenty of muscle and strength. As an example, my current first 3 sets for chest are an incline barbell bench:

I do:
Set 1: 205x10
Set 2: 195x10
Set 3: 185x9

Roughly, give or take a rep if it's a good/bad day.

I tried the reverse and pyramided the weight up and I got:
Set 1: 185x13
Set 2: 195x9
Set 3: 205x6

I got more reps in the first set sure, but when it came time to hit my biggest weight my reps suffered immensely. In fact my reps in general suffered heavily as the sets passed vs keeping a more steady rep range with heavier weights. My level of soreness the next day wasn't as intense either when I completed the rest of the chest work in this fashion in that workout. My question is, what is the point of pyramiding up? All you are doing is simply tiring yourself out for your most heaviest set and thus hampering your ability to lift the most weight possible for the most reps...

Anyone that pyramids up religiously have any input on this? I can't see myself getting anywhere like this, granted it was my first time attempting this and it was a change to what my body's used to. Either way, in theory it seems like it would still hamper your heaviest set as you'd be gassed.

[hmcl281]

when i pyramid up my weights between sets is usually a lot wider than 10 lbs

[TJP33]

well what were your target reps? If your throwing on X weight and thinking im gonna do as many as I can and then bump, yea your burn out.. also weight selection- I never want any set to be easy, but I want the 1st set to be smooth, 2nd set a bit of a struggle, and on my 3rd I wouldn't be upset about failing 1 rep short of my target.. (my 4th is a drop).
To give you an idea about weight selection.
For bench I run a 10-6-4Drop, my weight selection is 225, 275, 315 (then drop and rep out 225 and 135- not to failure but to the point where I know one more rep would most likely result in failure.

[CompletePimp]

when i pyramid up my weights between sets is usually a lot wider than 10 lbs

If you were to use higher weight spacings that means the first set or two would be far too light to be considered have done any real work. If your max is, say, 200 for a target of 6-8 reps, and the first sets you'll do is, lets say, 120 and 160, i hardly call that working sets. 135 is my warmup, so I dont even count that as my first set before my big heavy lift. My goal is to lift in a 8-12 rep range with the heaviest weights i can manage for that range. Pyramiding up seems to strip the amount of reps and weight one can do, ultimately lowering the total reps and work done in the workout.

The overall point I'm making is that if you do a particular 3 different weights in opposing orders, pyramiding that weight up will result in less of an intense workout due to fewer reps of the heaviest weight that would have been done with the pyramid down style of sets. Seems like an overall inferior way to train to me. Because the most stimulus is caused with the heaviest weight for the longest time under tension, aka heaviest weight for the most reps (which only pyramiding down will allow).

So my question is, what's the argument for using the pyramid-up technique? There doesn't seem to be any gain, except from perhaps **shocking** the body to do something its not used to. But as a general way to train, seems weird to me.

[hmcl281]

My pyramid range is 15 - 12 - 9, mainly there to give it my all on my last set. Using the 2 as a warmup and so i can hit the other rep range instead of just 9 rep range from week to week. I just feel stronger this way. My weight range for incline bench press is about 115 145 175.

just notice you also in san mateo

[CompletePimp]

My pyramid range is 15 - 12 - 9, mainly there to give it my all on my last set. Using the 2 as a warmup and so i can hit the other rep range instead of just 9 rep range from week to week. I just feel stronger this way. My weight range for incline bench press is about 115 145 175.

just notice you also in san mateo

lol yup, I workout at the super sport off el camino and 92. Only weekends though because during the week I work south in Mountain View and go to the gyms there.

Have you tried going with the heaviest weight first? (after light warm up) Surely you would be able to do more than 9 reps with 175 if you did it first rather than last set. Do you ever mix it up if you plateau?

[BeastMode413]

According to my math in the first method you lifted 5665 lbs and in the second 5390 lbs... Pretty damn close in my opinion... I really think its just personal preference. I have seen people get big and strong using either method

[jobronze]

Pyramid up is really neural ramping, greesing the groove, getting a pump WITHOUT fatiging yourself before you hit your top ( working) set. The point is get your muscles working but save the best for last.

As someone above mentioned, 10 lbs in between isn't very effective ramping.

I think ramping up is most effective with big compounds.

[GravityLee]

Well a couple instances where I pyramid the first that comes to mind is we used to pyramid up on barbell curls then pyramid back down. These were incredibly brutal I forget if it was 5 reps at each weight or 8 reps I really don't recall but I remember we would go up 5 or 10 lb increments without stopping keep going and start stripping plates and go back down without stopping and by the end you are just cheat repping doing whatever you have to to get that bar up absolutely sick pump.

The other instance here recently my old shoulder injury started aggravating again so I will pyramid up from much lower than what I normally lift at almost like I am doing it for the purposes of warming up.

I have really changed how I look at the human body I don't think theres always a right or wrong way to train depending on what we are talking about. Of course some concepts are always right and some always wrong but talking about these types of styles usually whenever possible mix it up is my solution.

But anyway when you listed your first set of pyramid sets where you did 205 x 10 then you go down from there the first thing that came to my mind is you just aren't resting long enough. If you rested 3 minutes or longer between I think you could probably hit 3 sets of 205 x 10. Now does it make sense to rest 3 minutes I dunno again I don't think theres a right or wrong answer necessarily. If you don't rest 3 minutes then you don't hit the same weight and reps because you haven't had time to recover so in a way you are taxing the body hard doing that so its not wrong necessarily because you are challenging the body. If you do wait the 3 minutes you make it easier in a way but then you hit heavier lifts.

[NZninja101]

When you're ramping up, you're going to generally want to not push yourself too hard until you get to your top set. If done with appropriate poundages then it will contribute somewhat to hypertrophy, (even though you're not exactly going close to failure), whilst not leaving you too tired to hit your top set hard.


Though if, (after warming up), your first set is a heavy set followed by lighter backoff sets, you're generally going to be hitting the heavy set hard, despite it meaning you'll have less energy for your lighter sets. I'm just talking about doing as many full reps by yourself that you can do. I wouldn't go beyond that but others might.

[fotv]

Is it important to pyramid at all? What if you do a couple of warm-up sets and then do 3 sets at the same (high) weight (around 8 reps)? Is this less effective than pyramiding to build muscle? Thanks in advance.

[Rasputin4]

Is it important to pyramid at all? What if you do a couple of warm-up sets and then do 3 sets at the same (high) weight (around 8 reps)? Is this less effective than pyramiding to build muscle? Thanks in advance.

Here's another way of looking at it: the fact that pyramiding up lowered your top set so much means the lower sets actually did fatigue your muscles, else you'd be lifting just as much as when you're fresh on that top set.

IMO one instance when pyrsmidding up instead of doing straight sets is when you are hitting a heavy compound 2-3 times per week. In this case greater frequency trumps greater intensity on those lower sets. It's also arguable that even hitting a muscle group once per week, pyramidding up will allow you to increase your total volume by adding in another movement and pyramidding that, too. For example, hitting 5•5 straight sets on back squat, front squat, and deads all on one workout while having something left in the tank to hit straight sets on some less cns draining movement like db lunges and leg curls isn't nearly as practical as pyramidding the back squats, front squats, and deads.

Moral of the story is you don't have to lift as much weight as possible to maximize gains, stuff like volume and frequency moderate optimal intensity.

[hmcl281]

lol yup, I workout at the super sport off el camino and 92. Only weekends though because during the week I work south in Mountain View and go to the gyms there.

Have you tried going with the heaviest weight first? (after light warm up) Surely you would be able to do more than 9 reps with 175 if you did it first rather than last set. Do you ever mix it up if you plateau?

I'm there weeknight.

If i do go heavy it's usually the same weight for all of the sets, I usually only pyramid down if i want to get a pump or fatigue the muscle and weight decrease is usually really big from one set to the next with little rest between sets. When i plateau i usually do 2 force reps on my last set, so my muscle get used to going beyond what I can do.


I think pyramid up is great if you want to max out for a certain weight on the last and final set, pyramid down is great if you want to get a pump and just fatigue the muscle.

[kanis999]

If pyramiding is for 'ramping up', then why not just call them warmups, not track them, and start writing down what you did in the workout starting only on your first heavy set? That's exactly what I do. Once I've hit my work set weight, I begin naturally pyramiding down, because each set is somewhat exhausting and I can't repeat what I did in set 1 during set 4. Anything that isn't a struggle isn't considered a working set so I don't even bother writing it down. That's why I can get great workouts that "only" have ~15 sets in them.

[CompletePimp]

If you rested 3 minutes or longer between I think you could probably hit 3 sets of 205 x 10. Now does it make sense to rest 3 minutes I dunno again I don't think theres a right or wrong answer necessarily. If you don't rest 3 minutes then you don't hit the same weight and reps because you haven't had time to recover so in a way you are taxing the body hard doing that so its not wrong necessarily because you are challenging the body. If you do wait the 3 minutes you make it easier in a way but then you hit heavier lifts.

I sometimes wait upwards of 4-5 minutes between the lifts. I lift to failure, the maximum weight I can for the target reps. This is why I can't do the same weight twice for the same reps. If I did 205 twice, the second set I wouldnt hit 10 I would be at a 6-7 definitely. I know myself, there are some lifts I can do the same weight all 3 sets with ease (Even though all to failure) and others I couldn't meet the rep count with the same weight for all sets if my life depended on it. Everyones different.

[Rasputin4]

If pyramiding is for 'ramping up', then why not just call them warmups, not track them, and start writing down what you did in the workout starting only on your first heavy set? That's exactly what I do. Once I've hit my work set weight, I begin naturally pyramiding down, because each set is somewhat exhausting and I can't repeat what I did in set 1 during set 4. Anything that isn't a struggle isn't considered a working set so I don't even bother writing it down. That's why I can get great workouts that "only" have ~15 sets in them.

Because there's a distinction between warm up sets that are so low they don't fatigue your muscles at all or lower your working weight reps at all, and pyramid sets that are higher than regular warm ups sets and lower than standard working sets yet intense enough to lower your working weight reps due to some muscle fatigue.

[CompletePimp]

According to my math in the first method you lifted 5665 lbs and in the second 5390 lbs... Pretty damn close in my opinion... I really think its just personal preference. I have seen people get big and strong using either method

Volume\total work done is just one piece of the puzzle. You could do 5000 lbs of work with very light weights regularly and never get near the size of someone who did that same amount of work in heavy lifts regularly. It's also about how intense the stimulus is to the body.

[Rasputin4]

I sometimes wait upwards of 4-5 minutes between the lifts. I lift to failure, the maximum weight I can for the target reps. This is why I can't do the same weight twice for the same reps. If I did 205 twice, the second set I wouldnt hit 10 I would be at a 6-7 definitely. I know myself, there are some lifts I can do the same weight all 3 sets with ease (Even though all to failure) and others I couldn't meet the rep count with the same weight for all sets if my life depended on it. Everyones different.

You're focusing too much on intensity. It's not about lifting as much as possible and going to a rep shy of failure every set, it's about consistency and progressive overload. Also, waiting 4-5 minutes between sets is more a powerlifting approach, not a bodybuilding one, better for building strength than size. If you're wanting to lift that way, you'd be better off doing a lower rep range such as 5x5. Lower rest periods in the 2 min range and rep ranges between 5-10 will work toward a combination of strength and size but specialize in neither, lowering rest periods to more like 1 min and increasing rep ranges to 10+ across sets is better for size. With the rep ranges you listed you'd be better off resting more like 2 mins between sets. You'd have to lower the intensity a bit but you'd be increasing density (intensity over time) and get a better workout.

[Rasputin4]

Volume\total work done is just one piece of the puzzle. You could do 5000 lbs of work with very light weights regularly and never get near the size of someone who did that same amount of work in heavy lifts regularly. It's also about how intense the stimulus is to the body.

Right. Likewise, intensity is just part of the puzzle. Volume is part, but so are frequency and density. Based on what you're doing, increasing your density and lowering your intensity a bit would be a better workout and would allow you to lift the same amount of total weight in less time. This means your muscles are being hit harder than if you rest longer between sets and pyramid down rather than up. True, your method yields greater intensity but the highest possible intensity, given your rep ranges, is not the most optimal method to stimulate growth.

[CompletePimp]

Right. Likewise, intensity is just part of the puzzle. Volume is part, but so are frequency and density. Based on what you're doing, increasing your density and lowering your intensity a bit would be a better workout and would allow you to lift the same amount of total weight in less time. This means your muscles are being hit harder than if you rest longer between sets and pyramid down rather than up. True, your method yields greater intensity but the highest possible intensity, given your rep ranges, is not the most optimal method to stimulate growth.

I guess everyone is different, because I've gained quite a good deal of mass with my current methods. Switching things up is definitely something I'm open to however.