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    Could the body build muscle with 0.5 grams of protein per pound of body weight?

    Do you know anyone who has an impressive physique but does not eat a high protein diet? There has been no recorded advantage of eating more than 0.64 grams of protein per pound of body weight.
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    Originally Posted by BelievingChamp View Post
    There has been no recorded advantage of eating more than 0.64 grams of protein per pound of body weight.
    The article you're quoting is slightly outdated. In the mean time there have been studies that have found advantages of eating more, see: http://www.jissn.com/content/11/1/20

    Not that you won't gain muscle at 0.5. Especially during bulking I expect you'll do just fine, just not optimal.
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    Originally Posted by Mrpb View Post
    The article you're quoting is slightly outdated. In the mean time there have been studies that have found advantages of eating more, see: http://www.jissn.com/content/11/1/20

    Not that you won't gain muscle at 0.5. Especially during bulking I expect you'll do just fine, just not optimal.
    I would be getting sufficient protein if I had not found out that the protein I was using had been amino spiked.
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    Originally Posted by BelievingChamp View Post
    I would be getting sufficient protein if I had not found out that the protein I was using had been amino spiked.
    ?? If you consumed extra protein to be safe you wouldn't have any issues.
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    Originally Posted by BelievingChamp View Post
    Do you know anyone who has an impressive physique but does not eat a high protein diet? There has been no recorded advantage of eating more than 0.64 grams of protein per pound of body weight.
    I've never known any bodybuilder who built a good physique who didn't eat at least a gram of protein per pound of body weight. IMO, that's just about the perfect amount for anyone, with the possible exception of someone in contest-prep mode.
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    Originally Posted by BelievingChamp View Post
    Do you know anyone who has an impressive physique but does not eat a high protein diet? There has been no recorded advantage of eating more than 0.64 grams of protein per pound of body weight.
    What's considered an impressive physique is going to change from person to person.

    I doubt anyone who actively pursues bodybuilding on a low protein diet is going to be particularly successful beyond a certain point for a variety of reasons.
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    Originally Posted by ironwill2008 View Post
    I've never known any bodybuilder who built a good physique who didn't eat at least a gram of protein per pound of body weight. IMO, that's just about the perfect amount for anyone, with the possible exception of someone in contest-prep mode.
    lets just say those bodybuilders are generally able to utilize more protein due to... various reasons
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    As far as I know Jason Blaha and Menno Henselmans consume less than 1 gram per lb (so they say). Granted they're not the most impressive bodybuilders but there are probably more.
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    Originally Posted by ironwill2008 View Post
    I've never known any bodybuilder who built a good physique who didn't eat at least a gram of protein per pound of body weight. IMO, that's just about the perfect amount for anyone, with the possible exception of someone in contest-prep mode.
    I know there's research that supports a bit lower than that, but I agree with the above. I've also seen best results around that same mark as well.
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    you would likely build muscle but at such a slower rate than eating at least .82-1g per pound of bodyweight
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    Originally Posted by Slow-N-Steady View Post
    I know there's research that supports a bit lower than that, but I agree with the above. I've also seen best results around that same mark as well.
    Yep. I've read all of it.

    I don't see the point in trying to find out what the lower limit might be when I know by experience (both my own and others') that a gram/pound works very well.



    Again, a natty guy into serious contest prep would probably do well to stretch that to maybe 1 1/4 to 1 1/2 gm/pound.
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    Originally Posted by BelievingChamp View Post
    Do you know anyone who has an impressive physique but does not eat a high protein diet? There has been no recorded advantage of eating more than 0.64 grams of protein per pound of body weight.
    To answer your question, yes the body can and will build muscle in response to RE stimuli on that amount of protein, especially high quality protein sources. However as stated in this thread, it may not be optimal, but that wasn't your question.

    There are many vegan and vegetarians who have good physiques on what is considered low amounts compared to others. If one is engaging in competitive bodybuilding then they wouldn't consider that low of an amount to begin with. If somewhat wants to lift weights and have a nice build, it can work fine. I know one lifter who has kidney cancer so one was removed and his daily amount of protein is very low due to his disease, he is quite muscular and not young. Hope that helps!
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    Originally Posted by ironwill2008 View Post
    Yep. I've read all of it.

    I don't see the point in trying to find out what the lower limit might be when I know by experience (both my own and others') that a gram/pound works very well.



    Again, a natty guy into serious contest prep would probably do well to stretch that to maybe 1 1/4 to 1 1/2 gm/pound.
    Exactly what I always say! What's this obsession with trying to be at the lowest possible amount while possibly ruining optimal gains/retention (without actually knowing for sure you're getting them).

    Play it safe and enjoy tasty steaks etc!
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    Originally Posted by AlwaysTryin View Post
    Exactly what I always say! What's this obsession with trying to be at the lowest possible amount while possibly ruining optimal gains/retention (without actually knowing for sure you're getting them).

    Play it safe and enjoy tasty steaks etc!
    ^^^^ This.


    And based on some of the stuff I see posted in this forum every day, I'm not sure some posters can handle the mathematics required to figure the '.6-to-.8 gms per pound bw' that's commonly touted for protein intake. A nice, round multiplier of "1" is probably a little easier to figure for some posters.
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    Originally Posted by ironwill2008 View Post
    ^^^^ This.


    And based on some of the stuff I see posted in this forum every day, I'm not sure some posters can handle the mathematics required to figure the '.6-to-.8 gms per pound bw' that's commonly touted for protein intake. A nice, round multiplier of "1" is probably a little easier to figure for some posters.
    There have been threads where they couldnt even figure it out with the multiplier of "1".
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    Originally Posted by ironwill2008 View Post
    ^^^^ This.


    And based on some of the stuff I see posted in this forum every day, I'm not sure some posters can handle the mathematics required to figure the '.6-to-.8 gms per pound bw' that's commonly touted for protein intake. A nice, round multiplier of "1" is probably a little easier to figure for some posters.
    He just made another thread on the same topic and 0.5g again *sigh*
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    Originally Posted by AlwaysTryin View Post
    Exactly what I always say! What's this obsession with trying to be at the lowest possible amount while possibly ruining optimal gains/retention (without actually knowing for sure you're getting them).

    Play it safe and enjoy tasty steaks etc!
    1000x this^ i just dont understand. protein is so delicious
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    Originally Posted by cumminslifter View Post
    1000x this^ i just dont understand. protein is so delicious

    While I agree whole heartledly, It is to my understanding that most people worry about the minimums because protein rich foods tend to be more expensive, speaking from experience before I got In my current financial position, I was working part time and going to school I found getting protein for relatively cheap to be extremely hard while shopping on a budget.
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    Originally Posted by ironwill2008 View Post
    I've never known any bodybuilder who built a good physique who didn't eat at least a gram of protein per pound of body weight. IMO, that's just about the perfect amount for anyone, with the possible exception of someone in contest-prep mode.
    1. Bodybuilders usually workout 5+ times a week, sometimes twice a day so their muscles could use the extra protein.

    2. Bodybuilders are typically at a lower body fat percentage than the average gym goer, meaning they are at a higher risk of losing muscle mass while in a caloric deficit and so the higher protein may benefit them.

    3. Bodybuilders are typically at a lower body fat percentage than the average gym goer, and so 1g/lb of bodyweight for them is very different than 1g/lb of bodyweight for a person at the same weight but with a higher body fat percentage. Aside from the bodybuilder's higher risk of losing muscle (while in a caloric deficit), the bodybuilder has more protein eating muscle even though the two people weigh the same. This is why I recommend 1g/lb of lean body mass for people higher than 20% bodyfat, or .8g/lb of bodyweight if you're at a moderate bf%.

    4. Bodybuilders have years of experience meaning their gains would come slower, so the extra protein may benefit them.

    5. Why tip the odds in favor of the supplement and meat industry based off of biased and unproven claims. With all do respect, who the cares what bodybuilders are eating anyway, they're sponsored by the supplement industry and paid to say one thing or another.

    6. How can people swear by 1g/lb of bodyweight when it's very unlikely that they themselves have experimented with different protein levels ceteris paribus...all else equal. Were you on the same weightlifting program, were you eating at the same surplus, and was your weight and bf% the same? I highly doubt it.

    7. "It can't hurt if you eat more", is the silliest argument in favor of eating more protein. If you're going to eat more protein then do it because you like to eat it. Why base your diet and fitness off of a fallacy created by people who bend facts and are interested in perpetuating this bias for their own benefit. Do some research and make up your mind yourself, and remember that most of these studies use professional bodybuilders, or elite athletes who probably tax their muscles a lot more than we do. No one's asking you how much YOU like to eat protein, most of these threads are from beginners who are more than likely going to go out and buy some protein powder.
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    I agree that protein intake should be based off the food you like to eat, not really a number that some you read on a bodybuilding forum. There is no magic number, there is simply a minimum that you need to be healthy, and some scientific evidence that athletes benefit from increased protein intake. Beyond this point I have never understood why people decide to shoot for any macro amount per day instead of just overall calories. It's silly.

    You also have to understand that the entire bodybuilding industry is supported by supplement companies. Without stuff to sell it would not be a big industry. No mainstream organization or individual affiliated with bodybuilding is going to tell you the truth about protein because if the perception about protein changed they lose $$$.
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    Originally Posted by Caezar07 View Post
    1. Bodybuilders usually workout 5+ times a week, sometimes twice a day so their muscles could use the extra protein.
    When he mentioned bodybuilders, I'm pretty sure he wasn't just talking about pros (and/or just pros/ppl on juice). Check plenty of logs here, several recreational lifters/bber's workout 5x a week.

    Originally Posted by Caezar07 View Post
    2. Bodybuilders are typically at a lower body fat percentage than the average gym goer, meaning they are at a higher risk of losing muscle mass while in a caloric deficit and so the higher protein may benefit them.

    3. Bodybuilders are typically at a lower body fat percentage than the average gym goer, and so 1g/lb of bodyweight for them is very different than 1g/lb of bodyweight for a person at the same weight but with a higher body fat percentage. Aside from the bodybuilder's higher risk of losing muscle (while in a caloric deficit), the bodybuilder has more protein eating muscle even though the two people weigh the same. This is why I recommend 1g/lb of lean body mass for people higher than 20% bodyfat, or .8g/lb of bodyweight if you're at a moderate bf%.
    Not even pro bodybuilders are in a caloric deficit most of the time. A lot go through bulk/cut/contest prep cycles somewhat similar to the average recreational person. Also, this is why plenty speak of LBM and not total weight.

    Originally Posted by Caezar07 View Post
    5. Why tip the odds in favor of the supplement and meat industry based off of biased and unproven claims. With all do respect, who the cares what bodybuilders are eating anyway, they're sponsored by the supplement industry and paid to say one thing or another.
    No one mentioned supplements. As a matter of fact, a lot of people mentioned steak and whole foods. Also, minus the outliers, the difference between 0.8g/lb and 1g/lb is not grotesque. For a lot of people, you're talking 20, 30, 40g etc protein. Not groundbreaking by any means.

    Originally Posted by Caezar07 View Post
    6. How can people swear by 1g/lb of bodyweight when it's very unlikely that they themselves have experimented with different protein levels ceteris paribus...all else equal. Were you on the same weightlifting program, were you eating at the same surplus, and was your weight and bf% the same? I highly doubt it.
    I would say that's a false assumption at best.

    Originally Posted by Caezar07 View Post
    7. "It can't hurt if you eat more", is the silliest argument in favor of eating more protein. If you're going to eat more protein then do it because you like to eat it. Why base your diet and fitness off of a fallacy created by people who bend facts and are interested in perpetuating this bias for their own benefit. Do some research and make up your mind yourself, and remember that most of these studies use professional bodybuilders, or elite athletes who probably tax their muscles a lot more than we do. No one's asking you how much YOU like to eat protein, most of these threads are from beginners who are more than likely going to go out and buy some protein powder.
    No one's saying do it because you like it, or more always = better, we're saying why try to get by on the absolute minimum when going for the maximum gain? Outside of financial reasons (and again for most people, we're not talking an additional 100g protein, we're talking miniscule numbers), it just doesn't much make sense.

    Several variables such as differences in individual digestion, different absorption rates of various proteins, etc. all affect how much ingested protein you're body uses and varies by person and diet, so again, why make that your target? If people want, to each his or her own, but it just doesn't seem to make the most sense.

    I guess most people should also try bulking with the minimum possible calories with hope for maximum gain? 200 cal daily surplus could theoretically get you around near max potential muscle gain/week inclusive of fat gain... but there's a reason most (including well seasoned) people aim just a bit higher (350 or so) for periods that are specifically to maximize gains (not talking about recomps), for several obvious reasons. Again, doesn't mean you jump up to 700cals a day, but it means there's logic behind a small cushion. Yes, I know calorie surpluses and protein needs are not one in the same, but I'm just showing similar thoughts of reasoning, scientific and not.

    At the end of the day, you take the science, the anecdotal evidence, and you're own experience to form your perspective. No one came in and said, you must get this--we said this is what we've experienced, seen and do. To each, his or her own.
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    Originally Posted by Slow-N-Steady View Post
    Also, this is why plenty speak of LBM and not total weight.
    Noone in this thread did.


    No one mentioned supplements. As a matter of fact, a lot of people mentioned steak and whole foods. Also, minus the outliers, the difference between 0.8g/lb and 1g/lb is not grotesque. For a lot of people, you're talking 20, 30, 40g etc protein. Not groundbreaking by any means.
    20 - 40g of protein is the difference between 1 - 2 scoops of protein or someone choking down a can of tuna that they hate. Why put the odds in favor of the supplement industry, or in the other hand, recommend people to eat something they don't neccessarily want to.


    No one's saying do it because you like it, or more always = better, we're saying why try to get by on the absolute minimum when going for the maximum gain?
    The bare minimum would be .6g - .8g/lb for an elite athlete or pro, so how could .8g/lb or 1g/lb of LBM be anywhere close to the bare minimum for the average gym goer? Recommending .8g/lb or 1g/lb of LBM is not recommending the bare minimum.

    When people (usually beginners) ask how much protein they need, why perpetuate a misconception when something else can be recommended that's backed by science and more than adequate? A simple question deserves a simple answer without being skewed by misguided notions. If anything, why not let people decide for themselves if they want to "play it safe" and eat more than .8g/lb rather than recommend 1g+/lb from the getgo. Your whole arguement is still along the same old "why not" or "it can't hurt to eat more" line of thinking.
    Last edited by Caezar07; 07-15-2014 at 06:27 AM.
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    My take has always been the higher level of proteins are most valuable on a cut. If you are bulking there is less pressure for break down of lean mass. It might not be optimal but you would still gain.
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    Originally Posted by Caezar07 View Post
    The bare minimum would be .6g - .8g/lb for an elite athlete or pro, so how could .8g/lb or 1g/lb of LBM be anywhere close to the bare minimum for the average gym goer? Recommending .8g/lb or 1g/lb of LBM is not recommending the bare minimum.

    When people (usually beginners) ask how much protein they need, why perpetuate a misconception when something else can be recommended that's backed by science and more than adequate? A simple question deserves a simple answer without being skewed by misguided notions. If anything, why not let people decide for themselves if they want to "play it safe" and eat more than .8g/lb rather than recommend 1g+/lb from the getgo. Your whole arguement is still along the same old "why not" or "it can't hurt to eat more" line of thinking.
    You keep talking about the "average joe lifter", but I would caution that many of the people here lift 4-5 times a week (and some upward of that). But what do you think separates the average individual from a body builder? I would say that you're using definitions that may or may not apply to the anecdotal evidence you received above (many of the posts above were written by people who would not qualify as an average joe lifter).

    I would say that because of this, your logic is somewhat invalid. A minimum has not yet been established for "elite body builders."

    Surely, there's nothing wrong with .5-.8g of protein per pound of body weight. But that is a daily minimum. You can feel free to consume more, as there is nothing wrong with that.

    EDIT: But to answer the question given by OP. Yes, you can build muscle. There's nothing wrong with .5g of protein per pound of body weight, but just consuming the daily minimum is not optimal. The daily minimum is not a number that you should hit, but a number that you should consume above if possible.
    Last edited by TypeNirvash; 07-15-2014 at 06:46 AM.
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    Originally Posted by Caezar07 View Post
    1. Bodybuilders usually workout 5+ times a week, sometimes twice a day so their muscles could use the extra protein.

    2. Bodybuilders are typically at a lower body fat percentage than the average gym goer, meaning they are at a higher risk of losing muscle mass while in a caloric deficit and so the higher protein may benefit them.

    3. Bodybuilders are typically at a lower body fat percentage than the average gym goer, and so 1g/lb of bodyweight for them is very different than 1g/lb of bodyweight for a person at the same weight but with a higher body fat percentage. Aside from the bodybuilder's higher risk of losing muscle (while in a caloric deficit), the bodybuilder has more protein eating muscle even though the two people weigh the same. This is why I recommend 1g/lb of lean body mass for people higher than 20% bodyfat, or .8g/lb of bodyweight if you're at a moderate bf%.

    4. Bodybuilders have years of experience meaning their gains would come slower, so the extra protein may benefit them.

    5. Why tip the odds in favor of the supplement and meat industry based off of biased and unproven claims. With all do respect, who the cares what bodybuilders are eating anyway, they're sponsored by the supplement industry and paid to say one thing or another.

    6. How can people swear by 1g/lb of bodyweight when it's very unlikely that they themselves have experimented with different protein levels ceteris paribus...all else equal. Were you on the same weightlifting program, were you eating at the same surplus, and was your weight and bf% the same? I highly doubt it.

    7. "It can't hurt if you eat more", is the silliest argument in favor of eating more protein. If you're going to eat more protein then do it because you like to eat it. Why base your diet and fitness off of a fallacy created by people who bend facts and are interested in perpetuating this bias for their own benefit. Do some research and make up your mind yourself, and remember that most of these studies use professional bodybuilders, or elite athletes who probably tax their muscles a lot more than we do. No one's asking you how much YOU like to eat protein, most of these threads are from beginners who are more than likely going to go out and buy some protein powder.

    You must have missed the part where I said this was my opinion.

    So I'm not entitled to my opinion?





    Okay.




    Got it.
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    Originally Posted by ironwill2008 View Post
    You must have missed the part where I said this was my opinion.

    So I'm not entitled to my opinion?





    Okay.




    Got it.
    It could be opinion that you like to eat steak rather than potatoes. It's your opinion that maybe you like grilled chicken better than brown rice. But no, science cannot be your opinion, and if someone asked about something science based, it'd be much better to give science than spout off your opinion which is actually directly contradicting science.
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    Originally Posted by Caezar07 View Post
    It could be opinion that you like to eat steak rather than potatoes. It's your opinion that maybe you like grilled chicken better than brown rice. But no, science cannot be your opinion, and if someone asked about something science based, it'd be much better to give science than spout off your opinion which is actually directly contradicting science.

    You need to slow your role, there is no exact in nutritional science and information is always changing.

    I would like you to tell Dr Layne Norton, Lyle McDonald and Alan Aragon that there is "no opinion" in science based nutrition, as these 3 highly intelligent and educated indvidiuals share different opinions on certain aspects of nutritional science.
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    Originally Posted by Caezar07 View Post
    It could be opinion that you like to eat steak rather than potatoes. It's your opinion that maybe you like grilled chicken better than brown rice. But no, science cannot be your opinion, and if someone asked about something science based, it'd be much better to give science than spout off your opinion which is actually directly contradicting science.
    >.>

    Originally Posted by ironwill2008 View Post
    Yep. I've read all of it.

    I don't see the point in trying to find out what the lower limit might be when I know by experience (both my own and others') that a gram/pound works very well.



    Again, a natty guy into serious contest prep would probably do well to stretch that to maybe 1 1/4 to 1 1/2 gm/pound.
    You should probably re-read this. He inferred that it it might be a good idea to consume more protein. And there is nothing wrong with that. Your daily minimum for protein intake is just that, a daily minimum.

    Min·i·mum
    noun
    1.
    the least or smallest amount or quantity possible, attainable, or required.
    Essentially, there is no reason why you cannot consume more protein than your daily minimum. Beyond that, while it is possible to build muscle on your daily minimum, that does not make it optimal in any way shape or form. Doing anything at the minimal level is not, and never will be optimal.

    Originally Posted by Former300lber View Post
    You need to slow your role, there is no exact in nutritional science and information is always changing.

    I would like you to tell Dr Layne Norton, Lyle McDonald and Alan Aragon that there is "no opinion" in science based nutrition, as these 3 highly intelligent and educated indvidiuals share different opinions on certain aspects of nutritional science.
    This. As intelligent as you seem, you'd do well to read a little more about the subject, Ceazar.
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    Originally Posted by Caezar07 View Post
    Noone in this thread did.
    Again, an entirely false assumption. I myself have, and have talked about it here in the past. Several others have as well, just as they've documented changes in other variables while holding remaining variables constant.


    Originally Posted by Caezar07 View Post
    20 - 40g of protein is the difference between 1 - 2 scoops of protein or someone choking down a can of tuna that they hate. Why put the odds in favor of the supplement industry, or in the other hand, recommend people to eat something they don't neccessarily want to.
    What are you talking about with these odds of the supplement industry??? That has nothing to inherently do with this topic. You are the only one in this entire thread mentioning protein supplements lol.

    And to respond to the last part, no one suggesting eathing something you don't want to. There's hundreds of protein sources--eat what you like.


    Originally Posted by Caezar07 View Post
    The bare minimum would be .6g - .8g/lb for an elite athlete or pro, so how could .8g/lb or 1g/lb of LBM be anywhere close to the bare minimum for the average gym goer? Recommending .8g/lb or 1g/lb of LBM is not recommending the bare minimum.
    That's just false. .6g/lb would generally be close to bare minimum standard for ANY lifter looking to maximize muscle gain. And also, I never said 1g/lb is bare minimum, I said it's adequate--optimal even.

    Originally Posted by Caezar07 View Post
    When people (usually beginners) ask how much protein they need, why perpetuate a misconception when something else can be recommended that's backed by science and more than adequate? A simple question deserves a simple answer without being skewed by misguided notions. If anything, why not let people decide for themselves if they want to "play it safe" and eat more than .8g/lb rather than recommend 1g+/lb from the getgo. Your whole arguement is still along the same old "why not" or "it can't hurt to eat more" line of thinking.
    Unfortunately, your logic is misconstrued and seems to rely primarily on the premise of "not letting the supplement industry win"--which has absolutely nothing to do with this thread. Also, your understanding and application of "science" is erronous at best. There are no absolutes and research and it's understanding changes over time.

    There are no misguided notions or skewed recommendations in this thread. No one's suggesting absurd amounts of protein intake. Logically it's pretty simple, why aim for absolute minimum protein intake when aiming for absolute maximum muscle gain?
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    Originally Posted by TypeNirvash View Post
    Min·i·mum
    noun
    1.
    the least or smallest amount or quantity possible, attainable, or required.
    Thanks for clarifying that. All I gave OP was an unbiased, science supported "minimum".

    And also, I never said 1g/lb is bare minimum, I said it's adequate--optimal even.
    You implied that the minimum I recommended was near the "absolute minimum".

    For all we know, OP is 5' 10" 250lbs and sitting at 35% bodyfat. In that case, would you seriously recommend that he eat 250g of protein daily? No one in this thread had mentioned LBM before I did. But yet, i am being attacked for giving a more complete answer to his question.

    Where is wonderpug when you need him?
    Last edited by Caezar07; 07-15-2014 at 08:34 AM.
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